(13) Valpo vs. (4) Maryland NCAA 'Second' Rd Fri 3/20 4:40 PM EDT TNT

[historyman]

Lew Rhinehart was my childhood next door neighbor.  My dad still plows his driveway every winter. Hmmm...Lew time to to pay up for all that free plowing

When I was in high school Herr Rhinehart was "die Deutsch Lehrer."

[valpotx]

My father and I came back for session 2 about 45-50 minutes later, and they still hadn't let anyone in.  Btw, I give the Dayton Flyers fan base my new award for most obnoxious, but also the most zoned in.  Their band plays the same freaking, 'goooooooooooooooooooooooo Dayton Flyyyyyers,' song about 20 times throughout their games.  I have 'D...A...Y...T...O.O.O.O.N....DAYTON....FLYERS,' still stuck in my head.  I definitely understood Providence's coach saying after the game, 'neutral site,' in response to most questions about the game.  That whole place was rocking with Dayton fans, and you had a Providence section that was probably 1/3 of what we brought to the game.  Also, Dayton fans are just about as full of themselves as Butler fans.  The guy I was sitting next to at the game was basically talking like they are Kentucky, referencing how they were in the 50s and 60s, and saying that Valpo would be bottom of the A-10, 'no offense.'  I didn't want to tell him that we would have beaten Providence by more points than they did, as Providence looked like crap.  PCs leading scorer was 7/26 in the game, 7...for...26!!  He was bricking them all over the place, and Dayton started the game 1/12.  We would have beaten both teams, had we played like we did against Maryland.

[Smj]

responding to a bunch. ...

Thanks for posting the link to the post game interview

Maryland's coach did kind of dismiss us at half time (Bryce and Alec did a great job of saying Maryland played well during the post game - it just sounds better.    I have no respect for Waters because he said Valpo didn't beat them during a post game interview. )

I still say seeding is super critical (same as normal critical but wearing a cape) and I think we would have upset many teams if we had been moved up one seeding number. ...   (However, fan support might have been different because it would not have been so close to home)

As for the foul - I don't think you can say that it is a "wash" because of something that was called in your favor earlier....   Game flow changes earlier and teams do different things to adjust. ...   A missed call with no time left is just that - a missed call. ..   You have no game left to make a different plan for the rest of the game - it is over.   Bryce was gracious during his post game.    I would have said - the refs, just like us, have a job to do - the last few seconds of this game i think you could say that neither of us did our job the way we probably wanted to. ...

[valpo64]

There is no question that Maryland Coach Mark Turgeon dissed our program at half time saying we hit some threes even though Valpo is not a good shooting team.  The look and tone of his comments to the reporter at half  said it all.  I had the impression that he didn't like having to play us and that it was below their dignity having to do it.

[nkvu]

There is no question that Maryland Coach Mark Turgeon dissed our program at half time saying we hit some threes even though Valpo is not a good shooting team.  The look and tone of his comments to the reporter at half  said it all.  I had the impression that he didn't like having to play us and that it was below their dignity having to do it.

He wasn't much better in the post game though he did compliment Peters. Once again we won't get respect until we win a few of these games against the big schools.

[nkvu]

My father and I came back for session 2 about 45-50 minutes later, and they still hadn't let anyone in.  Btw, I give the Dayton Flyers fan base my new award for most obnoxious, but also the most zoned in.  Their band plays the same freaking, 'goooooooooooooooooooooooo Dayton Flyyyyyers,' song about 20 times throughout their games.  I have 'D...A...Y...T...O.O.O.O.N....DAYTON....FLYERS,' still stuck in my head.  I definitely understood Providence's coach saying after the game, 'neutral site,' in response to most questions about the game.  That whole place was rocking with Dayton fans, and you had a Providence section that was probably 1/3 of what we brought to the game.  Also, Dayton fans are just about as full of themselves as Butler fans.  The guy I was sitting next to at the game was basically talking like they are Kentucky, referencing how they were in the 50s and 60s, and saying that Valpo would be bottom of the A-10, 'no offense.'  I didn't want to tell him that we would have beaten Providence by more points than they did, as Providence looked like crap.  PCs leading scorer was 7/26 in the game, 7...for...26!!  He was bricking them all over the place, and Dayton started the game 1/12.  We would have beaten both teams, had we played like we did against Maryland.

Dayton has a similar relationship to Xavier as we have to Butler, only theirs makes ours look downright civil.  They have a true inferiority complex when it comes to Xavier and it appears this fan tries to make up for it by dissing other programs. Just makes them look even smaller.  If you had asked him how he felt about Xavier leaving them behind when they moved to the Big East you would really have gotten an earfull!

[StlVUFan]

My father and I came back for session 2 about 45-50 minutes later, and they still hadn't let anyone in.  Btw, I give the Dayton Flyers fan base my new award for most obnoxious, but also the most zoned in.  Their band plays the same freaking, 'goooooooooooooooooooooooo Dayton Flyyyyyers,' song about 20 times throughout their games.  I have 'D...A...Y...T...O.O.O.O.N....DAYTON....FLYERS,' still stuck in my head.  I definitely understood Providence's coach saying after the game, 'neutral site,' in response to most questions about the game.  That whole place was rocking with Dayton fans, and you had a Providence section that was probably 1/3 of what we brought to the game.  Also, Dayton fans are just about as full of themselves as Butler fans.  The guy I was sitting next to at the game was basically talking like they are Kentucky, referencing how they were in the 50s and 60s, and saying that Valpo would be bottom of the A-10, 'no offense.'  I didn't want to tell him that we would have beaten Providence by more points than they did, as Providence looked like crap.  PCs leading scorer was 7/26 in the game, 7...for...26!!  He was bricking them all over the place, and Dayton started the game 1/12.  We would have beaten both teams, had we played like we did against Maryland.

I was in section 223 for the evening session (my nose is still bleeding), and for the Dayton-Princeton game, two Flyers fans sat right in front of me and stood for half the game.  The only saving grace was that because of the sharp incline I could just peer between the shoulders (after leaning forward) and see the entire court.  They didn't even notice me.

I concur on both your assessments of their fanbase.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

When I was in high school Herr Rhinehart was "die Deutsch Lehrer."

you were? what years?

[valporun]

StlVUFan, how did Princeton get into the game against Dayton? I'm sure Providence College would have rather been Princeton in this game.

In terms of how we played against Maryland, a handful of layups or free throws go in the net, and we aren't talking about how we didn't get any respect from Turgeon. We'd be hearing about how his Corn Flakes tasted like piss and vinegar. We didn't play a terrible game, just had shots that didn't fall. Maryland wasn't dominant, so obviously Turgeon didn't know what words to put together for how his team was playing against Valpo.

Finally, in terms of our season schedule, yes, I didn't like that we had three non-D1 games on our schedule, but we were a young team with 2 seniors, and not a lot of combined experience together, so we took what games we could get to see what kind of team we would really have as the season went on. Yes, a handful of the teams we played didn't give us much competition at all, but we finally had a season that we could sit back and enjoy, give or take the injuries and the sudden fall from 70 point games to battling to final scores in the 50s and 60s. We got to see a good team grow before our eyes. When was the last time we saw a young team grow together, and prove that they belong in Valpo uniforms? Those non-D1 games were intentionally planned, in case we had some bad games and terrible losses, or just needed a game to rest tired legs. I hope we don't have 3 of this type of game next year, but I also don't want to replace 3 non-D1 games with 3 low-level bad RPI schools in D1 with a team like ours. We'll need the challenge of good games all season long, but having a game or two after a long stretch of tourney play that allows for resting starters is not a bad thing at all. I think the scheduling of Goshen, Trinity, and IUSB did play to our favor, even though those games were surrounded by mostly subpar competition. I don't want us jumping the gun next season for guarantee games like Oakland had, but I would like to see a Kansas State, Florida, Temple, Tulane, Connecticut, Richmond, George Washington, St. Bonaventure, Pittsburgh, Florida St., Clemson, or Minnesota..all middle of their Power 5 conference or A-10, instead of the schedule we had this season. Will we get any of these teams? Most likely not, unless we get into a tourney with any of them. With the team we have returning, are any of these  games crazy for us? I don't think so. We could win any of these, but we'd get great competition for our experienced, older team. I yearn for the year when our roster reflects more minutes from veterans, so probably 16-17 season, where we'll have a handful of seniors and juniors, unlike this season. Then we should be making a major splash not only in the HL, but in the NCAA Tournament.

[StlVUFan]

StlVUFan, how did Princeton get into the game against Dayton? I'm sure Providence College would have rather been Princeton in this game.

DOH! 

[StlVUFan]

In terms of how we played against Maryland, a handful of layups or free throws go in the net, and we aren't talking about how we didn't get any respect from Turgeon. We'd be hearing about how his Corn Flakes tasted like piss and vinegar. We didn't play a terrible game, just had shots that didn't fall. Maryland wasn't dominant, so obviously Turgeon didn't know what words to put together for how his team was playing against Valpo.

You might argue that he's not smart to be dismissive, but how that hurts us is something I don't get, except on a purely emotional level of perception.  If you're still in meatball mode, you're going to react angrily to such dismissiveness, but rationally, it really doesn't affect us negatively.

If anything, we could take it as a compliment: if he's resorting to that kind of attitude, it means we've gotten under his skin.

Anyone with half a brain knows our guys belonged on that court with Maryland after the game was over.  If somehow Turgeon were on an island somewhere believing differently, that would be his loss.

[historyman]

When I was in high school Herr Rhinehart was "die Deutsch Lehrer."

you were? what years?

1979-83

[LaPorteAveApostle]

oh cool.  i was hoping we overlapped but no.

[StlVUFan]

He was my coach in 10th grade (1973-1974).

[LaPorteAveApostle]

He was my coach in 10th grade (1973-1974).

So he was one of the great old guard (when I was there) who unfortunately all retired and were not adequately replaced (hence VHS' spiraling decline).

Interesting!  His kids were my age or younger though...like classes of '95 and '98.  Were there other kids?

(I'd feel bad for going off topic but this thread is as dead as the game.)

[StlVUFan]

who unfortunately all retired and were not adequately replaced (hence VHS' spiraling decline)

My younger sibling probably attended during that decline (early 80s, I believe)

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Oh, well; I don't doubt that there were some issues in the 80s and even into the 90s (LSD comes to mind), but it was still very much an excellent school with great teachers and great programs.  But after the greatest generation retired (a partial list: Reggie, Collins, Bird, Lebryk, Bowman, etc.) they were not adequately replaced.  Part of this was due to attrition at superintendent and principal levels, as well.

The many awards we won in the 90s will testify to that, and even in the early 00s (I spent 2 years working there later) it was still very good.  But signs of a decline were there, and since then, I have heard stories that scare me. 

I'm thus 'happy' to assure you that the decline is much more recent than both of us.

[agibson]

LSD?  Lakeshore Drive?  Timothy Leary?

I'm curious, what sort of awards were there in the 90's?

I've had a little taste of VCS currently, but have little knowledge about the past.

In recent years, one sees VHS with "Indiana Four Star School" status, and some of the elementaries with "National Blue Ribbon" status, and certainly winning state-wide academic competitions and the like.

Hard to know what all of that means.  But, I'm curious, what sorts of distinctions was the place, or system, garnering in the "glory days"?

[wh]

Relative to other school systems in Indiana - better SAT scores, better I-Step scores, better graduation rates. Valpo used to be considered a model school system mentioned in the same breath as Carmel, for instance. No longer. Just this past year 1 of the middle schools (TJ?) and 2 or 3 grade grade schools received C grades from the state school grading system. The model school system in Porter County and 1 of the best in the state by the numbers is now the East Porter County school system. They really have their act together - excellent administrators, strong teaching staff, students heavily involved in extracurricular activities, almost obsessive parental involvement and support (strongly encouraged), and zero tolerance for drugs and bullying.

[LaPorteAveApostle]

LSD?  Lakeshore Drive?  Timothy Leary?

The latter, unfortunately.  It was in the early 90s, before I got there, but was a huge bust/deal then.

There were a number of awards and national rankings...specifics elude me now, but I wish I could remember.  I believe there were US News-like rankings.  Obviously being the first school in like a 3-state radius to be awarded the IB program was a huge feather.  We were always top-3 in the state with Chesterton and Carmel.

And the music department got VHS named a "GRAMMY Signature School" multiple times in the early-mid 00s (I know because I filled out the applications : )

I feel bad because I left out many names that occurred to me after I had submitted my post.  Case in point:  Doc Stuber and Doc Boyle.  I can pretty much guarantee no one there has a doctorate these days

[agibson]

Relative to other school systems in Indiana - better SAT scores, better I-Step scores, better graduation rates. Valpo used to be considered a model school system mentioned in the same breath as Carmel, for instance. No longer. Just this past year 1 of the middle schools (TJ?) and 2 or 3 grade grade schools received C grades from the state school grading system. The model school system in Porter County and 1 of the best in the state by the numbers is now the East Porter County school system. They really have their act together - excellent administrators, strong teaching staff, students heavily involved in extracurricular activities, almost obsessive parental involvement and support (strongly encouraged), and zero tolerance for drugs and bullying.

Interesting - thanks for the pointers.

The state conveniently presents the last nine years of school grades in an Excel spreadsheet - so pardon me geeking out a little.

http://www.doe.in.gov/news/indiana-department-education-releases-2013-2014-school-and-corporation-accountability-grades

But, first, do these report cards have a reasonable reputation?  Do they tell us something useful?

Carmel definitely looks sterling.  Over 15 schools, nine years for most of them, there are a total of only 5 B's.

East Porter (Washington and Morgan Townships, Kouts) does seem probably a notch above VCS.  In the latest year  (2014 - this release was Nov 2014) their average, over 6 schools (3 elementary, 3 mid/high) was 3.84.  Only 3 C's out of 54 chances in the last 9 years (about 5%).

I don't know if it's really fair to compare the directly to VCS (Valpo), which has a bunch of elementary schools ("community" schools) funneling down to just two mids and one high school.  But, VCS' average last year was 3.75.  But, over the last nine years, definitely more C's.  About 15% of the possible opportunities.

In 2014 TJ Middle did pick up a C (2.75).  With Ben Franklin and Flint Lake (Elementary) picking up B's (3.25's).  Everybody else got A's.

The elementary schools in VCS generally seem to rate well, almost all A's and B's over the last nine years.  The only exception is TJ Elementary, which once got a D (?!).  That out of 8*9=72 elementary school grades.

TJ Middle has only one A.  And, both Ben Franklin and the High School have been a mix of A's, B's, and C's.

So, far from an unblemished record.  But, I don't know what it really means.

Of the elementary schools in Valparaiso, Central is near-perfect, with a single B.  And Northview managed all A's.  I'll count my lucky stars, I guess (it's my kids' school).  Or, should I just thank my relatively privileged/affluent neighbors?  (few "renters", a pox on all who rent!, as I've done for most of my adult life; and, to be clear, my neighborhood is far from a row of McMansions). 

I'll have to see if I can find some individual report cards.

How's that for a thread tangent?

[agibson]

Of the elementary schools in Valparaiso, Central is near-perfect, with a single B.  And Northview managed all A's.  I'll count my lucky stars, I guess (it's my kids' school).  Or, should I just thank my relatively privileged/affluent neighbors?

And, just to peek at some data that touches on economic affluence, let's take a look at the free/reduced lunch rate (and big points to VCS for transparency - a lot of data on these report cards is very easily browseable from their web pages).  Overall VCS is at 27.5% (compare Carmel Clay at 9.8%, statewide average seems to be 49.2% - how about them apples?). 

Northview Elementary's not the lowest (19.3%), but it's in the bottom group.

The real achievement points probably should go to Central (37.2%).

Yes, BF's the more affluent school (19.3% to TJ Middle's 35.5%).

So, this already makes me think twice about the Indiana report cards.  They do seem to award some points for "growth" as opposed to raw performance.  But, I wonder if these results should somehow be curved based on economic profile.

Some VCS details, below.

27.5% VCS free/reduced overall
(compare to Carmel Clay at 9.8%)

BF 19.3% free/reduced
TJ Mid 35.5%

Northview 19.3%
Central 37.2%
Flint Lake 45%
TJ Elementary 46.2%
Cooks Corners 26.9%
Hayes 12.4%
Memorial 18.1%
Parkview 43.8%

I suppose that's (one of?) the downside to "community" schools.  A variation by more than a factor of three in free/reduced lunch rate between schools in the same district, that feed into the same high school!

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Yes, BF's the more affluent school (19.3% to TJ Middle's 35.5%).

To me this is hilarious, because my alma mater was consistently frowned on and derided by rich parents.  even teachers zoned for BF sent their kids to TJ to avoid the "undesirables".

Also, Northview, woot!  My other alma mater.  1990 STATE CHAMPS

[agibson]

Also, Northview, woot!  My other alma mater.  1990 STATE CHAMPS

Spell bowl?

[LaPorteAveApostle]

Naw, that was before spell bowl. 

It was the early days of computer testing and I captained a team that took a test on Ye Olde 5.25" Floppy and we submitted it and got to go to the championships in Lexington where we lost to a team from Massillon (OH) in the championship.

I still haven't forgiven the Post-Trib for titling their article "They used electronic brains to win" as though the computer were doing the work.

Of course I don't think the Vidette-Mess even RAN an article.  So.

Good times.