2015-2016 Opponents

[vu72]

Could this be part of a Horizon-West Coast Challenge?

Mid major challenges don't work and don't exist.

Well, Gary Waters was quoted in saying that the Horizon was working on a challenge with the West Coast.  Maybe you know something he doesn't!   

So what exactly doesn't work?  We schedule games against good mid-major teams, thus reducing scheduling issues.  Sounds like a plan to me...

[valporun]

Unless the Horizon League and West Coast Conference can get a tv deal worked out with CBS or ESPN with some travel money involved for each program during the length of the contract, money would be an issue with going from California or Washington to Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio for a few of the West Coast teams, or even a small handful of the HL teams, as they don't have a vast athletic budget to handle it. Plus, the lost ticket  revenue because fans of Pepperdine or Santa Clara aren't going to fly to Detroit or Youngstown for a game, if they can stay home and watch on tv. You also won't see a lot of fans from Oakland University or Wright State flying to a game at St. Mary's or San Francisco. It just doesn't look financial feasible or worth the time, when most of both of these conferences aren't a financial/revenue boom based on ticket sales to their arenas. Plus, I'm not real interested in an HL-WCC basketball challenge anyway.

[a3uge]

Could this be part of a Horizon-West Coast Challenge?

Mid major challenges don't work and don't exist.

Well, Gary Waters was quoted in saying that the Horizon was working on a challenge with the West Coast.  Maybe you know something he doesn't!   

So what exactly doesn't work?  We schedule games against good mid-major teams, thus reducing scheduling issues.  Sounds like a plan to me...

Scheduling and potentially giving up buy games make these impossible. If, say NKU gets a date with Duke on November 16th, they're not going to want to give that up to fly to Oregon to play Pacific University. Works the other way around too... Gonzaga isn't going to play at the ARC when they could find an easy 200 RPI team to beat up at home or play a top 10 team on the road. You also have to take into account other preseason tournaments schools have worked out that guarantees 2 or 3 neutral court games, some against really good opponents. You're then throwing away 3 dates for one game.

Just doesn't work out and hasn't worked out forever. Every time its been tried it fails.

[vu72]

I guess perhaps the WCC is a bad idea but how about the MAC? Look, we can't sit around complaining about scheduling D2 and/or D3's if a conference challenge is out of the question. Scheduling is only going to get harder as we keep winning.

[aevans12]

Pacific (or at least the one in the WCC) is in Stockton, CA.  Doesn't change the arguments at all, just wanted to put that out there.

[a3uge]

Pacific (or at least the one in the WCC) is in Stockton, CA.  Doesn't change the arguments at all, just wanted to put that out there.

Guess it's University of the Pacific, not Pacific University. Nonetheless, a very irrelevant basketball program.

[justducky]

Scheduling and potentially giving up buy games make these impossible. If, say NKU gets a date with Duke on November 16th, they're not going to want to give that up to fly to Oregon to play Pacific University. Works the other way around too... Gonzaga isn't going to play at the ARC when they could find an easy 200 RPI team to beat up at home or play a top 10 team on the road. You also have to take into account other preseason tournaments schools have worked out that guarantees 2 or 3 neutral court games, some against really good opponents. You're then throwing away 3 dates for one game.

Just doesn't work out and hasn't worked out forever. Every time its been tried it fails.

Difficult yes, totally unworkable well maybe not! Think bigger and lets also broaden our thinking to all 10 team conferences for simplicity.

First off forget any 1 game per year challenge and jump to 2. Each league would then require its members to keep open dates for a predetermined Friday, Saturday, Sunday 2 road or home game weekend (under the 2 game challenge) where say the 1'st, 3'rd, 5'th, 7'th and 9'th best HL teams would hit the road to play their equivalent ranked opponents with the idea that those same teams would then switch the home vs road designation in the following season. Should be able to rerank those 5 road and 5 home groupings each year in order to provide for the strongest match ups.

That said, a MVC matchup might be easier and some flexibility for substitution might need to be introduced to minimize travel.   

[a3uge]

Scheduling and potentially giving up buy games make these impossible. If, say NKU gets a date with Duke on November 16th, they're not going to want to give that up to fly to Oregon to play Pacific University. Works the other way around too... Gonzaga isn't going to play at the ARC when they could find an easy 200 RPI team to beat up at home or play a top 10 team on the road. You also have to take into account other preseason tournaments schools have worked out that guarantees 2 or 3 neutral court games, some against really good opponents. You're then throwing away 3 dates for one game.

Just doesn't work out and hasn't worked out forever. Every time its been tried it fails.

Difficult yes, totally unworkable well maybe not! Think bigger and lets also broaden our thinking to all 10 team conferences for simplicity.

First off forget any 1 game per year challenge and jump to 2. Each league would then require its members to keep open dates for a predetermined Friday, Saturday, Sunday 2 road or home game weekend (under the 2 game challenge) where say the 1'st, 3'rd, 5'th, 7'th and 9'th best HL teams would hit the road to play their equivalent ranked opponents with the idea that those same teams would then switch the home vs road designation in the following season. Should be able to rerank those 5 road and 5 home groupings each year in order to provide for the strongest match ups.

That said, a MVC matchup might be easier and some flexibility for substitution might need to be introduced to minimize travel.

Again, if a team like Wisconsin is looking for a home game on a specific weekend and call up UIC, why would UIC turn that down to play LMU? Scheduling is already difficult, so as much as you think it would be awesome for Valpo to play Wichita State and UNI at home, it's just not worth it for the bottom of each league to handcuff a weekend to play another 200+ RPI team. It also doesn't make sense for Wichita State to waste a weekend playing a decimated Green Bay team when they could have the opportunity to schedule, say a Big East school that weekend. As great as it may seem on paper, there's too many moving parts and too many mouths to feed in order for this to be practical.

[mvandersee]

That said, a MVC matchup might be easier and some flexibility for substitution might need to be introduced to minimize travel.   

This upcoming season the MVC is restarting their conference challenge with the MWC (previously held 2009-2012). Unlike other challenges, it is being held over multiple weeks instead of just one week/weekend to better accommodate already scheduled games.


http://www.mvc-sports.com/mbasketball/news/2014-15/8021/mvc-and-mountain-west-renew-challenge-series/#.VXY74M_BzGe

[justducky]

Again, if a team like Wisconsin is looking for a home game on a specific weekend and call up UIC, why would UIC turn that down to play LMU?

I acknowledge the problems so please don't take this rebuttal as one of my standard arguments.  But ------ all mid major conferences are having great difficulties finding worthwhile opponents for home and home series, so if The HL required UIC to travel to Portland for a Friday night Nov 20 game followed by a flight from there to take on LMU that Sunday 11-22 then UIC would either have to do this or face penalty or expulsion. Many of us have championed HL minimum scheduling requirements and this could be incorporated into those rules. In return UIC could expect 2 following season home games against similarly seeded WCC conference opponents who might be traveling from or to maybe GB, VU or UWM for the second game of their long weekend road trip.. These would be the rules and even Oakland would have to follow.

so as much as you think it would be awesome for Valpo to play Wichita State and UNI at home, it's just not worth it for the bottom of each league to handcuff a weekend to play another 200+ RPI team. It also doesn't make sense for Wichita State to waste a weekend playing a decimated Green Bay team when they could have the opportunity to schedule, say a Big East school that weekend. As great as it may seem on paper, there's too many moving parts and too many mouths to feed in order for this to be practical.

This is another instance where a preseason AD, coaches and or sportswriters poll might be necessary towards establishment of each conferences team seeding. If you don't want to host two of the worst teams in the WCC then strengthen your recruiting and instantly the HL could respond with stronger opponents.

[valpo84]

This would be a good challenge, and adds a nice every other year trip to the West Coast. Unless you're going to do something with the A10/14 or Big Least, there aren't a lot of conferences laying around with the types of players/teams/coaches that the WCC has if MVC, MWC, ACC, B1G and others are tied up.

It would be nice to see teams like St Marys, BYU, San Diego (Jenny Craig Arena), Santa Clara at Valpo. There's been some fun players too -- potential NBA Finals MVP Matt "Delly" Dellavedova (another AIS player too), Big Country Bryant, Tyler Haws, a little floppy haired PG named Steve Nash, Michael Olowokandi.

Plus they have a tradition with SF (Bill Russell anyone or Bill Cartwright) and now former Valpo assistant Rex Walters as Coach.

And little ol Pacific was in the tourney 4 times since 2004.

[valporun]

Big Country was an Eddie Sutton guy at Oklahoma State. Even with the rich history of WCC basketball going to the NBA, there would have to be an almost tournament-like setup for this to be worth it for any of the commuter school HL teams to make the trip to the West Coast valuable for them. Plus, I'd almost suspect that this would have be a challenge that happened on Thansgiving weekend, just so teams wouldn't have to miss class time for travel to and from wherever the game(s) would be played. If not a tournament-like event, then each WCC school would need another Midwest game, and each HL school would need another West Coast game, otherwise a there and back challenge would be worthless. I still don't see this working out, especially without a tv contract that makes this possibility feasible for every one of the schools involved.

Someone mentioned the MAC, and I don't believe that will happen either, as the MAC values basketball about as well as John Calipari values education.

[vu72]

Big Country was an Eddie Sutton guy at Oklahoma State. Even with the rich history of WCC basketball going to the NBA, there would have to be an almost tournament-like setup for this to be worth it for any of the commuter school HL teams to make the trip to the West Coast valuable for them. Plus, I'd almost suspect that this would have be a challenge that happened on Thansgiving weekend, just so teams wouldn't have to miss class time for travel to and from wherever the game(s) would be played. If not a tournament-like event, then each WCC school would need another Midwest game, and each HL school would need another West Coast game, otherwise a there and back challenge would be worthless. I still don't see this working out, especially without a tv contract that makes this possibility feasible for every one of the schools involved.

Someone mentioned the MAC, and I don't believe that will happen either, as the MAC values basketball about as well as John Calipari values education.

[/b]

Yeah, it was me. You are right about the MAC being a football conference but still, they ended up being more highly ranked in basketball then the Horizon.  To me this is all about getting a better schedule via good mid-majors then having to schedule D2 and D3 teams.  Looking at the year end Sagarin rankings, the MAC East division finished rated #11! The MAC West division finished 13th.  The Horizon ended up 18th.     

Individually, The higher rated teams were from the MAC,were as follows:  Buffalo  63rd, Central Michigan  86th, Toledo 91st, Akron  115th and Kent St 116th.  I stopped there because all of those teams were ranked higher then our third best team, CSU, which ended ranked 119th.  Valpo and GB would fit in at number 2 and 3 with rankings at 68 and 75.

The result of a MAC-Horizon challenge would be several close games with quality mid-major opponents.  Cost is minimal as travel for most match-ups would be a bus ride.

[a3uge]

Big Country was an Eddie Sutton guy at Oklahoma State. Even with the rich history of WCC basketball going to the NBA, there would have to be an almost tournament-like setup for this to be worth it for any of the commuter school HL teams to make the trip to the West Coast valuable for them. Plus, I'd almost suspect that this would have be a challenge that happened on Thansgiving weekend, just so teams wouldn't have to miss class time for travel to and from wherever the game(s) would be played. If not a tournament-like event, then each WCC school would need another Midwest game, and each HL school would need another West Coast game, otherwise a there and back challenge would be worthless. I still don't see this working out, especially without a tv contract that makes this possibility feasible for every one of the schools involved.

Someone mentioned the MAC, and I don't believe that will happen either, as the MAC values basketball about as well as John Calipari values education.

[/b]

Yeah, it was me. You are right about the MAC being a football conference but still, they ended up being more highly ranked in basketball then the Horizon.  To me this is all about getting a better schedule via good mid-majors then having to schedule D2 and D3 teams.  Looking at the year end Sagarin rankings, the MAC East division finished rated #11! The MAC West division finished 13th.  The Horizon ended up 18th.     

Individually, The higher rated teams were from the MAC,were as follows:  Buffalo  63rd, Central Michigan  86th, Toledo 91st, Akron  115th and Kent St 116th.  I stopped there because all of those teams were ranked higher then our third best team, CSU, which ended ranked 119th.  Valpo and GB would fit in at number 2 and 3 with rankings at 68 and 75.

The result of a MAC-Horizon challenge would be several close games with quality mid-major opponents.  Cost is minimal as travel for most match-ups would be a bus ride.

The MAC was ranked so high because their OOC SOS was the second worst in all of D1. Since every team had a poor SOS, each team's Sagarin, RPI, etc improved because they were playing each other in conference twice. The horizon suffered because they had the 4th ranked SOS. The problem isn't the lack of scheduling quality mid majors. The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough. I had a post a while ago detailing the MAC's scheduling and how they gamed the system... I think their highest RPI win was like 90 or something.

[wh]

The MAC was ranked so high because their OOC SOS was the second worst in all of D1. Since every team had a poor SOS, each team's Sagarin, RPI, etc improved because they were playing each other in conference twice. The horizon suffered because they had the 4th ranked SOS. The problem isn't the lack of scheduling quality mid majors. The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough. I had a post a while ago detailing the MAC's scheduling and how they gamed the system... I think their highest RPI win was like 90 or something.

The HL SOS was artificially inflated by the "Oakland effect" of obscene over scheduling.  It's kind of like saying the per capita income in Charlotte NC is $20 M/yr based on a random sampling of 10 people, 1 of which happens to be Michael Jordan (exaggerated to make a point).  The problem for several of the other 8 programs is not over scheduling, but under performing.  Right now about half the league recruits, coaches and plays at a low major level.   

[a3uge]

The MAC was ranked so high because their OOC SOS was the second worst in all of D1. Since every team had a poor SOS, each team's Sagarin, RPI, etc improved because they were playing each other in conference twice. The horizon suffered because they had the 4th ranked SOS. The problem isn't the lack of scheduling quality mid majors. The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough. I had a post a while ago detailing the MAC's scheduling and how they gamed the system... I think their highest RPI win was like 90 or something.

The HL SOS was artificially inflated by the "Oakland effect" of obscene over scheduling.  It's kind of like saying the per capita income in Charlotte NC is $20 M/yr based on a random sampling of 10 people, 1 of which happens to be Michael Jordan (exaggerated to make a point).  The problem for several of the other 8 programs is not over scheduling, but under performing.  Right now about half the league recruits, coaches and plays at a low major level.

True, Oakland pulled everyone down a significant amount, but the Horizon still had 7 of 9 schools with a SOS below 200 while the MAC had only 2 of 12. 5 MAC schools had a +300 OOC SOS while the Horizon had 0. Even take Oakland out, and the SOS average is too low. No reason why Detroit needed a top 50 schedule. Gotta have everyone try to finish above .500.

[wh]

The MAC was ranked so high because their OOC SOS was the second worst in all of D1. Since every team had a poor SOS, each team's Sagarin, RPI, etc improved because they were playing each other in conference twice. The horizon suffered because they had the 4th ranked SOS. The problem isn't the lack of scheduling quality mid majors. The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough. I had a post a while ago detailing the MAC's scheduling and how they gamed the system... I think their highest RPI win was like 90 or something.

The HL SOS was artificially inflated by the "Oakland effect" of obscene over scheduling.  It's kind of like saying the per capita income in Charlotte NC is $20 M/yr based on a random sampling of 10 people, 1 of which happens to be Michael Jordan (exaggerated to make a point).  The problem for several of the other 8 programs is not over scheduling, but under performing.  Right now about half the league recruits, coaches and plays at a low major level.

True, Oakland pulled everyone SOS a significant amount, but the Horizon still had 7 of 9 schools with a SOS below 200 while the MAC had only 2 of 12. 5 MAC schools had a +300 OOC SOS while the Horizon had 0. Even take Oakland out, and the SOS average is too low. No reason why Detroit needed a top 50 schedule. Gotta have everyone try to finish above .500.

First you said, "The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough."  Now you're saying, "the Horizon still had 7 of 9 schools with a SOS below 200 (which supports my counter point)."  I'm confused. 




 

[a3uge]

The MAC was ranked so high because their OOC SOS was the second worst in all of D1. Since every team had a poor SOS, each team's Sagarin, RPI, etc improved because they were playing each other in conference twice. The horizon suffered because they had the 4th ranked SOS. The problem isn't the lack of scheduling quality mid majors. The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough. I had a post a while ago detailing the MAC's scheduling and how they gamed the system... I think their highest RPI win was like 90 or something.

The HL SOS was artificially inflated by the "Oakland effect" of obscene over scheduling.  It's kind of like saying the per capita income in Charlotte NC is $20 M/yr based on a random sampling of 10 people, 1 of which happens to be Michael Jordan (exaggerated to make a point).  The problem for several of the other 8 programs is not over scheduling, but under performing.  Right now about half the league recruits, coaches and plays at a low major level.

True, Oakland pulled everyone SOS a significant amount, but the Horizon still had 7 of 9 schools with a SOS below 200 while the MAC had only 2 of 12. 5 MAC schools had a +300 OOC SOS while the Horizon had 0. Even take Oakland out, and the SOS average is too low. No reason why Detroit needed a top 50 schedule. Gotta have everyone try to finish above .500.

First you said, "The problem is the majority of Horizon League teams are scheduling way too tough."  Now you're saying, "the Horizon still had 7 of 9 schools with a SOS below 200 (which supports my counter point)."  I'm confused. 

7 of 9 HL schools had OOC SOS's between 1 and 200. Lower = tougher schedule.

[vu72]

Clearly the horizon has taken huge steps backwards and the one constant is LeCrone.  I'll use Sagarin for results but I'm confident rpi or others would create the same results.

The Horizon League finished last year ranked 18th in the Sagarin's. There has been a steady decline as follows:  2013-2014: 13    2012-2013:  12    2011-2012:   12    2010-2011:  10

I next looked at the individual team rankings and then, to be fair, and to take into account rebuilding years, used an average of the last five years final rankings.  Here are the results:

Valpo    #107

CSU      #119

GB       #122

Det      #144

Oak     #156

WSU    #170

Mil      #185

YSU     #213

UIC     #260

There have been a total of  10 teams finishing ranked in the top 100.  Valpo, 3 times,  CSU 3 times,  GB, twice,  Detroit, once,  and Oakland once.

Draw your own conclusions... 

[justducky]

So is there anybody else in North America other than Indiana State, the HL, and the Montreal area YMCA  who is willing to play us? Its June 10th and we have one OOC game confirmed? Hope ISU doesn't catch wind of our latest rumor or they might decide to renege.

[valpo84]

@valporun You are correct that there was Big Country Bryant Reeves who played for Sutton, OKSTU and the Memphis Grizzlies, but I was specifically referring to Santa Clara's WCC POY Big Country John Bryant, whom I had the chance to see play live at UNC one year. He was big but nimble. He clearly has embraced the nickname Big Country as his twitter handle is @Big54Country.

http://www.santaclarabroncos.com/sports/m-baskbl/2005-06/releases/012106aaa.html

[valporun]

I guess I don't WCC basketball enough to remember that name.

[Pathfinder]

No reason why Detroit needed a top 50 schedule.

Remember Detroit was predicted for third or fourth last year in the league. A lot of people thought they'd be pretty good. It's easy to know Oakland's schedule last year was too tough, but very often it's tough to know in advance how hard you need to schedule. Another reason this ain't so easy.

[valpopal]

Apparently, as part of a West Coast swing during Thanksgiving break, Valpo will play at Oregon on Nov. 22.

[valpo64]

Look for Oregon State also