Regilious Freedom Act

[valpotx]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/12594299/mac-hold-championships-meetings-indiana

[setshot]

Great news. Perhaps the Horizon League will follow suit.

[a3uge]

Great news. Perhaps the Horizon League will follow suit.

You hope Valpo won't be allowed to host another Horizon League Championship game because of a law that has nothing to do with Valpo passed recently?

[Kyle321n]

Once it has the amendment and the appropriate language to protect all patrons from being discriminated against based on what the federal government has declared protected classes (Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation, etc) then this bill will be fine. Without that language this bill is nothing but a farce. I'm glad they are catching flack from it. Hell, as the bill states right now a Jewish deli could choose not to serve me, a Christian, because they disagree with my religious convictions.

[VULB#62]

I understand that the Indiana legislature is amending the law and will submit it for signing.  Great........  except........

According to USAToday's coverage of Mark Emmert's NCAA press conference, the following will be added:

"Earlier on Thursday, Republican lawmakers in Indiana announced a proposed new measure prohibiting the law from being used to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity"

Fine.  But, what about a poor Asian, blind, agnostic?  Or a black muslim paraplegic?  My point is that, again, this legislation will probably remain flawed in its writing because the knee-jerk bandaid response is so specific.  The intent was to cover a gap in the Federal RFRA that was promulgated back in the 90s.  I don't argue with the intent nor the well intended people who are trying to do a good job.  It's just that greater thought and analysis is needed on things like this.

Once it has the amendment and the appropriate language to protect all patrons from being discriminated against based on what the federal government has declared protected classes (Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation, etc) then this bill will be fine. Without that language this bill is nothing but a farce. I'm glad they are catching flack from it. Hell, as the bill states right now a Jewish deli could choose not to serve me, a Christian, because they disagree with my religious convictions.

[usc4valpo]

In reality, is this law really needed or is it to keep the Palin and Bachmann knuckleheads happy? Shouldn't Pence deal with more important issues like revitalizing Gary's economy?

[valpotx]

I understand that the Indiana legislature is amending the law and will submit it for signing.  Great........  except........

According to USAToday's coverage of Mark Emmert's NCAA press conference, the following will be added:

"Earlier on Thursday, Republican lawmakers in Indiana announced a proposed new measure prohibiting the law from being used to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity"

Fine.  But, what about a poor Asian, blind, agnostic?  Or a black muslim paraplegic?  My point is that, again, this legislation will probably remain flawed in its writing because the knee-jerk bandaid response is so specific.  The intent was to cover a gap in the Federal RFRA that was promulgated back in the 90s.  I don't argue with the intent nor the well intended people who are trying to do a good job.  It's just that greater thought and analysis is needed on things like this.

Once it has the amendment and the appropriate language to protect all patrons from being discriminated against based on what the federal government has declared protected classes (Race, Religion, Sexual Orientation, etc) then this bill will be fine. Without that language this bill is nothing but a farce. I'm glad they are catching flack from it. Hell, as the bill states right now a Jewish deli could choose not to serve me, a Christian, because they disagree with my religious convictions.

Completely agree.  This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination.  I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with

[valporun]

tx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.

[78crusader]

We face so many urgent challenges -- lack of fiscal restraint and the specter of a nuclear-armed Iran, among others -- and here we are worried about sending a confectioner off to jail for refusing to bake a cake for a wedding in which there is no bride? 

And don't be fooled by this "Framework Agreement" supposedly reached between the G5+1 and Iran.  The old adage that "the devil is in the details" has never been more true than it is now.  Despite the efforts of the White House pr machine, which is now in overdrive mode, this so-called "deal" in no way satisfies our national security interests.  Once the details emerge (assuming there is ever a written agreement reached by June 30), the public will realize this whole thing is contrived effort to cement the "legacy" of our president and that neither he nor the Iranians can be trusted on this matter of supreme importance.  We'd have been better off if the Marx Brothers showed up in Switzerland to negotiate rather than John Kerry. 

Paul

[vu84v2]

I can see many concerns about the rhetoric behind this deal. Is the US so committed to getting an agreement that they will excessively concede too much? A framework is not a deal and the deal is never done until it is done. All legitimate concerns.

But let me offer another perspective, wth my admittedly limited information.

The status quo: Iran develops nuclear weapons as they wish, US/Israel/etc. can prepare to defend themselves and use limited intelligence gathering on what Iran is doing, Iran has strict limits on oil exports.

After a deal (if one can really be done): Iran may still develop nuclear weapons as they wish (if they reneg on the deal), but US and others have better monitoring capabilities (or at least know they are not being allowed to monitor), US/Israel/etc. can still be prepared to defend themselves, Iran can ship more oil.

While the probability of gaining from the deal is not high, are the risks of things getting worse that much greater.  I honestly am not sure. Admittedly, I don't like "rewarding" a country for doing something bad (i.e. Iran developing nuclear weapons), but I could also see that we are taking away the punishment.

[vu84v2]

Two comments from previous posts regarding protests at Valpo.

So these guys are for ending Valpos study abroad center in China, right?

And, students from Muslim countries won't be returning home to their wonderful lands of tolerance and equality for all, I take it? Take that crap and peddle it somewhere else.

First quote: Relationships for students from China to come to the US and for US students to study in China is very complex. Among other things, it involves reduced funding from states to public schools, the huge trade between China and the US that students need to be prepared for, and the cultural impact on Chinese young people studying in the US on Chinese culture (i.e the US culture makes them question things about their system).

Second quote: From this post, you must be assuming that people from muslim countries like their corrupt and sometimes evil governments. Perhaps many find they like it here and want to be a part of and contribute to society. Oh, I never heard whether this poster had ever met a muslim or had muslim friends - so perhaps they really don't have any valid insight into how people from muslim countries think.

[wh]

Two comments from previous posts regarding protests at Valpo.

So these guys are for ending Valpos study abroad center in China, right?

And, students from Muslim countries won't be returning home to their wonderful lands of tolerance and equality for all, I take it? Take that crap and peddle it somewhere else.

First quote: Relationships for students from China to come to the US and for US students to study in China is very complex. Among other things, it involves reduced funding from states to public schools, the huge trade between China and the US that students need to be prepared for, and the cultural impact on Chinese young people studying in the US on Chinese culture (i.e the US culture makes them question things about their system).

Second quote: From this post, you must be assuming that people from muslim countries like their corrupt and sometimes evil governments. Perhaps many find they like it here and want to be a part of and contribute to society. Oh, I never heard whether this poster had ever met a muslim or had muslim friends - so perhaps they really don't have any valid insight into how people from muslim countries think.

The fact that you took issue with the obvious irony/hypocrisy/disrespect of a member of Islam (the most intolerant, anti-gay, anti-female religion on the face of the earth) marching on City Hall in Valparaiso, IN to express their outrage over the alleged mistreatment of homosexuals (you know, the people who get stoned to death in Muslim dominated countries throughout the Middle East) tells me the foundation probably isn't there to have an honest discussion.   

[VULB#62]

The fact that you took issue with the obvious irony/hypocrisy/disrespect of a member of Islam (most intolerant, anti-gay, anti-female religion on the face of the earth) marching on City Hall in Valparaiso, IN to express their outrage over the alleged mistreatment of homothe sexuals (you know, the people who get stoned to death in Muslim dominated countries throughout the Middle East) tells me the foundation probably isn't there to have an honest discussion.

Maybe I misinterpreted your response and forgive me if I did, but WH, I have respected all of your Valpo/sports-related and university-related comments and analysis.  They have been soundly based, very analytical and objective.  I have learned much from your thoughtful posts.  But when you jump to the political world, whether it be religious politics or secular politics, suddenly all objectivity seems to vanish.  Your vehemence almost startles me. So I feel a need to respond.  I have a number of close Muslim friends and colleagues.  They are revolted by what is being done in the name of a religion they love.  To paint all Muslims with the same brush is reflective of intolerance and bigotry.  We must not confuse the radical "Islamic" sects  -- they are truly NOT Islamic if you read the the Quran -- with the millions of Muslims faithful to the real message of their religion.  Here in the US, to a lesser extent,  we are confronted with the same dichotomy:  Are you a Christian or are you a real CHRISTIAN? Though we sometimes get close, thank God we don't have to go to civil war to determine which brand of Christianity will prevail.  I personally don't care if I go to hell because I don't read scriptures daily.  But there are those among us out there who measure us by that standard.  And if we challenge their interpretation of a Biblical passage, we are damned to hell and maybe deserve to be executed right now. Christ and Mohamed taught tolerance and love.  At the extremist end of the continuum there is no room for either.  We need to search for ways to always follow the precepts of love and tolerance despite what current events throw in our path. Nuff said.  Just had to say it.  Back to making Valpo the best it can be.  And if we ever meet at a game I'll buy you a beer or any libations of your choice.   

[valpotx]

Part of what wh states is true though, VULB.  It isn't just the extremist Muslims that are intolerant in the ways he mentions.  Whole countries in the Middle East dominate their women, and it is an absolute joke that they don't get the same opportunities as men (driving, going out in public without a male escort, showing their face/any skin at all besides their eyes, schooling, etc).  These aren't all extremist countries/sects with these laws or expectations of their women, but rather a big part of their culture...

[vu84v2]

I could not agree more with VULB's comments. I also think that Valpotx makes some very good points too. Saudi Arabia's restrictions on women are terrible, but those mistreatments are based on laws from an outdated and cruel interpretations of the Quran. Countries like Jordan and Morocco are much better since there are few (if any) restrictions baased on religious interpretation. Theocracies are bad, illustrating another strength of our country where state and church are separate.

[wh]

Part of what wh states is true though, VULB.  It isn't just the extremist Muslims that are intolerant in the ways he mentions.  Whole countries in the Middle East dominate their women, and it is an absolute joke that they don't get the same opportunities as men (driving, going out in public without a male escort, showing their face/any skin at all besides their eyes, schooling, etc).  These aren't all extremist countries/sects with these laws or expectations of their women, but rather a big part of their culture...

This is what happens with long exchanges - things get lost in the translation.  What I originally referred to is the hypocrisy/irony of a VU Muslim student from a Middle Eastern country participating in the protest march at City Hall where students were holding up signs saying we won't go where everyone isn't wanted (or something close to that).

Muslim dominated countries in the Middle East are the most bigoted, vile, despicable cultures in the world.  They despise Jews, publicly call for the complete destruction of Israel, slaughter Christians, put homosexuals to death, treat women like slaves, behead people, cut off arms for stealing.  They imprison anyone who dares speak out against Islam.  They execute anyone that says anything deemed derogatory toward their "prophet."  They have a kangaroo court system.  I could go on for hours. In some countries these are governments are voted in by the people.  In others they're kingdoms where if their rulers didn't enforce some form of this intolerant, bigoted "religious" system, they would be overthrown and killed by the people of the country. For anyone who hails from one of these despicable places to come over here as a guest of this country and have the audacity to publicly criticize a government decision supporting religious freedom makes me want to throw up.   
 

[crusaderjoe]

Completely agree.  This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination.  I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with

tx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.

So I guess both of you feel that it was acceptable for Wichita East High School to disallow a student with Downs Syndrome from wearing an athletic jacket with a varsity letter on it simply because he didn't compete in recognized varsity competition?   See:

http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student

Or, what about the severely autistic student who, because of his profound manifestations of disability, cannot satisfy regular diploma requirements but instead earns an "IEP", "occupational", or some other alternate type of high school diploma?  Is that equivalent to awarding a ribbon to the 12th man on the deal team too?

Where do you draw the line between accommodation-like practices to prevent overt and covert discrimination and everyone getting milk and cookies? 

[historyman]

author=wh link=topic=2158.msg58871#msg58871 date=1428155689]They have a kangaroo court system.  I could go on for hours. In some countries these are governments are voted in by the people.  In others they're kingdoms where if their rulers didn't enforce some form of this intolerant, bigoted "religious" system, they would be overthrown and killed by the people of the country. For anyone who hails from one of these despicable places to come over here as a guest of this country and have the audacity to publicly criticize a government decision supporting religious freedom makes me want to throw up.   

Don't hold back, wh, tell us how you really feel. You seem to have a lot of emotion pent up. Keep going, we don't want to miss anything.    (sorry, HC)

[vu84v2]

So any person that comes to the US legally on a work or student visa (or even becomes a US citizen), regardless of their own personal opinions, statements and actions, is permanently bound to the actions of not only their home country government but also countries in that region? I don't think anyone here is saying that awful things done by evil governments doesn't exist, but rather we (or at least I) are saying that individual people should be considered on their own personal merits. Thus, I see no hypocrisy in a muslim student (whether they are from the US or elsewhere) chosing to protest.

[valpopal]

So any person that comes to the US legally on a work or student visa (or even becomes a US citizen), regardless of their own personal opinions, statements and actions, is permanently bound to the actions of not only their home country government but also countries in that region? I don't think anyone here is saying that awful things done by evil governments doesn't exist, but rather we (or at least I) are saying that individual people should be considered on their own personal merits. Thus, I see no hypocrisy in a muslim student (whether they are from the US or elsewhere) chosing to protest.

I think the point might be that a student (Muslim or not)—from a repressive country such as China or some of the Middle East countries—who publicly protests perceptions of a religious freedom act in Indiana while not also publicly protesting against the obvious horrible actions of his or her homeland, perhaps even while being here through acceptance of funding from that repressive country, would clearly be displaying hypocrisy.


So this comment is not restricted to international students: I would suggest that any members of the university community who publicly protest this law, but who are silent about Valpo's presence in China or economic cooperation with some Middle East countries and the lack of a similar public statement by the administration about terrible civil rights actions in those countries, also would be exhibiting hypocrisy.

[vu84v2]

valpopal - First, I don't think that any of us know whether muslim students protesting are from the US or elsewhere.

I do think you raise some interesting points and valid concerns about involvement from students from the Middle East and China. Perhaps they wish the could protest in those countries, but have huge constraints that prevent them from doing so. That is unfortunate, but I do not think that it makes them hypocrits. And please do not lump all Middle Eastern countries together - Jordan and Morocco are vastly different than Saudi Arabia and Iran in the civil rights allowed to citizens.

As far as Valpo's presence in China, I do think that leaving would be a huge mistake. Valpo's (and any other university's) presence in China helps students become more worldly and think more critically with a worldwide perspective. Furthermore, the influence of Valpo's professors and students can only further subtle cultural changes that already are happening in China.

[valpopal]

valpopal - First, I don't think that any of us know whether muslim students protesting are from the US or elsewhere.

I do think you raise some interesting points and valid concerns about involvement from students from the Middle East and China. Perhaps they wish the could protest in those countries, but have huge constraints that prevent them from doing so. That is unfortunate, but I do not think that it makes them hypocrits. And please do not lump all Middle Eastern countries together - Jordan and Morocco are vastly different than Saudi Arabia and Iran in the civil rights allowed to citizens.

As far as Valpo's presence in China, I do think that leaving would be a huge mistake. Valpo's (and any other university's) presence in China helps students become more worldly and think more critically with a worldwide perspective. Furthermore, the influence of Valpo's professors and students can only further subtle cultural changes that already are happening in China.

Thanks for your comments, but just to clarify: I was explaining a point made by someone else, and I didn't single out Muslim students: I said "a student (Muslim or not)" in my post. Also, I do know many of the protesters and whether or not they are from the US, and I include them among my friends. In addition, I didn't "lump all Middle Eastern countries together": I wrote "some of the Middle East countries." Finally, I do not have any problem with the China overseas program. In fact, I actively assist it (as I do Muslim students on campus). But I would feel inconsistent, if not hypocritical, if I protested the Indiana statute yet engaged in encouraging and assisting the China program with my support while not also publicly speaking with equal vigor against its civil rights policies.

[vu84v2]

Thank you for clarifying. You did indeed say "some of the Middle East countries" and I apologize for not considering that.

Thank you for your work assisting the China overseas program and the Muslim students on campus at Valpo. Efforts like this only help the world we live in and the valued students at Valpo. Perhaps we can share experiences and insights one day. I have a lot of experience with some facets of these cultural issues and it sounds like you have a lot of experience.

[valpotx]

Completely agree.  This 'new age' has become overly sensitive to anything that could be taken as discrimination.  I blame it on giving ribbons/awards to everyone that participates in an event, rather than the true 1 winner and everyone else is a loser model that we all grew up with

tx, I agree, it's like giving out cookies and kool-aid after little league baseball games is the forever norm now. Heck, on Tuesday, when I go vote, I wouldn't shocked to see the opportunity to grab a cookie or cup of coffee on my way out of the library doors, even though that is illegal entice to skew the vote.

So I guess both of you feel that it was acceptable for Wichita East High School to disallow a student with Downs Syndrome from wearing an athletic jacket with a varsity letter on it simply because he didn't compete in recognized varsity competition?   See:

http://www.wfsb.com/story/28635455/ks-high-school-says-no-to-varsity-letter-for-special-needs-student

Or, what about the severely autistic student who, because of his profound manifestations of disability, cannot satisfy regular diploma requirements but instead earns an "IEP", "occupational", or some other alternate type of high school diploma?  Is that equivalent to awarding a ribbon to the 12th man on the deal team too?

Where do you draw the line between accommodation-like practices to prevent overt and covert discrimination and everyone getting milk and cookies? 

Seriously dude?  Completely different situations when you have someone with a true disability versus someone that is fully able and just isn't good at something.  Not worthy of a full response, since you went that direction...

[usc4valpo]

The bottom line is that Pence is a moron to legislate this law. It is a waste of time and energy that could been placed on more critical issues.