Horizon League considering Detroit as tourney location?

valpopal · May 05, 2015, 05:52:53 PM

I'm not sure how much validity there is in this, and I couldn't think of a more awful move by the Horizon League, but this certainly should serve as a spark for some off-season conversation: http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-tournament-going-neutral/

VULB#62 · May 05, 2015, 06:29:45 PM

Yet another reason go look at other conferences? Certainly helps UDM and Oakland regardless of where they finish the regular season.

covufan · May 05, 2015, 06:56:25 PM

Quote from: valpopal on May 05, 2015, 05:52:53 PM
I'm not sure how much validity there is in this, and I couldn't think of a more awful move by the Horizon League, but this certainly should serve as a spark for some off-season conversation: http://pantheru.com/2015/05/horizon-league-tournament-going-neutral/

Unless Oakland or Detroit make the final game, it will be a very lightly attended (in comparison to size of arena) game. I like the current format.

valpo64 · May 05, 2015, 07:12:51 PM

I can't imagine that fans will flock to downtown Detroit to watch games. Fort Wayne's Memorial Coliseum should be considered if they go to a neutral site. It has changed alot and been improved since the old Mid-Con tourney days.

VULB#62 · May 05, 2015, 07:24:01 PM

The prospect of ~~Millions Thousands~~ Hundreds sitting in front of ESPN2 and seeing a nearly empty arena for a D-I conference championship game will rock the Neilson ratings.

It will definitely cement America's perception of the HL as a top flight mid major.

They always say: "follow the money."

a3uge · May 05, 2015, 09:21:01 PM

Can't wait for the Horizon League to send a 15 seed after their top seed loses in front of a crowd of 500.

But before the outrage, I'd take this report with a grain of salt. PantherU has no credibility whatsoever and has been notoriously wrong about Horizon League news in the past.

valpotx · May 05, 2015, 10:01:00 PM

If there was a 7-2 vote, of course the other schools will be for it. They see the dynasty that Valpo is building, and want to have a chance to make the tourney in future years, when we will still be earning #1 seeds....

valpopal · May 05, 2015, 11:43:00 PM

Below is an article that quotes LeCrone and gives further credibility to this move of the tournament to Detroit. Looking at other fan forums, this plan seems to be seen as a bad idea and almost universally hated. Therefore, if this deal is finalized, I predict a further erosion of support for the Horizon League administration by fans. http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/05/horizon-league-joe-louis-arena/26956105/

chipper955 · May 06, 2015, 05:17:10 AM

This is such a bad idea it's almost laughable. Have these people not seen how many fans show up to the Friday and Saturday tournament games now when the hosting team is not playing? That is what all the games will be like, especially as mentioned if Oakland or Detroit aren't playing.

webbvufan · May 06, 2015, 08:54:17 AM

This is just another step in the long, torturous decline of the Horizon League. If the rumors about Northern Kentucky and this are true, I can see us winning the HL regular season crown next year, having our RPI trashed by having to play teams like NKU, YSU, and UIC twice, and being rewarded with a "neutral site" tourney game against OU or UDM in Detroit. We need to do whatever is necessary to move on to a conference like the MVC (or just about any conference not run by LeCrone).

vu72 · May 06, 2015, 09:02:47 AM

I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.

oklahomamick · May 06, 2015, 09:09:53 AM

The intent is for the men's tournament to begin next year and potentially anchor the tournament in Detroit for the foreseeable future. The Horizon League is expected to sign a deal this week with Olympia Entertainment to bring the conference basketball tournament to Joe Louis Arena, according to multiple people with knowledge of the discussions.

I was getting used to hosting the tournament in Valpo, 3 out of the last 4 years have been at the ARC. Whatever happened to giving the 1st seed and your best team an advantage? It's more import now that ever since the league is now 1 bid. Come one HL send the best representative to try and win a NCAA game.

I'm losing my support for the HL.

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/2015/05/05/horizon-league-joe-louis-arena/26956105/

webbvufan · May 06, 2015, 09:10:29 AM

Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:02:47 AM
I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.

I see your point, 72, but I don't believe that concern for the fan experience or tournament atmosphere has anything to do with this. If that were the case, cities like Indy or Cincy would be much more attractive destinations for fans while also being more neutral geographically. This is a money grab, plain and simple.

vu72 · May 06, 2015, 09:42:40 AM

Quote from: webbvufan on May 06, 2015, 09:10:29 AM
Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:02:47 AM
I think there is another side to this discussion. I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City. I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard. I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere. I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing. Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.

I see your point, 72, but I don't believe that concern for the fan experience or tournament atmosphere has anything to do with this. If that were the case, cities like Indy or Cincy would be much more attractive destinations for fans while also being more neutral geographically. This is a money grab, plain and simple.

OK, I just check the mileage and time--assuming driving. Green Bay has the farthest to go to Detroit at 8 hours and Milwaukee is next at 6 hours. Everyone else is within 4.5 hours. Given that 2 schools are basicly within a half hour, the average driving time is 3 3/4 hours. The average for non-Detroit area schools is 4.61 hours.

Now, I next looked at Indy as an alternative. The average driving time goes up to 4.25 hours but the average for non-Detroit area teams goes down slightly to 4.25 hours.Indy is further for four teams while Detroit is further for four teams as well. I'd call it a push. Bothe cities are very close for any real fan. Valpo will travel well and Cleveland is only 2 hours away. Dayton and YSU are 3.5 hours.

As for one being more attractive then the other--no comment and yes, the money at $20,000 per school is more (presumably) then what is generated when playing at college sites.

sliman · May 06, 2015, 09:56:12 AM

The additional $20,000 in revenue for schools such as Milwaukee and Green Bay surely will be eaten up in additional mileage so no game will be played at home or nearby and in additional lodging and meal expenses. Sounds to me like some schools just don't want to have to play at Valpo and they recognize that such is probably strong possibility almost annually. As most on the board have noted, this is a very short-sighted decision.

a3uge · May 06, 2015, 10:34:17 AM

I find it interesting that they'll be playing in a demolished arena in 2017. Playing in a parking lot will be interesting.

Also, its going to be really awesome scheduling around an NHL team. Say goodbye to that primetime Tuesday game.

valpo95 · May 06, 2015, 10:35:20 AM

This just seems like a terrible idea.

It can't be just a money grab, the numbers don't make any sense: If we assume a simple structure of the campus sites as 7 games played (4 in round 1, 2 round 2, and 1 championship), 2500 fans in attendance, and a ticket revenue that can be shared with the league of $10.00 per seat, that works out to $175K. Of course, not all of the games would draw 2500 fans, but the championship game surely would draw well above 2500 fans. (Again, these numbers are just rough estimates.)

So, why would the HL want to sign a contract for $200K? Maybe it is a few dollars more, but there has to be something else? Do the powers that be think that a large arena atmosphere would be better exposure for the league, even if that arena was half empty? Is it that there is too much of a home-court advantage for the first place team? I don't know the answer, but it seems the answer can't be money.

valpopal · May 06, 2015, 10:38:46 AM

Quote from: webbvufan on May 06, 2015, 09:10:29 AMThis is a money grab, plain and simple.

I agree with this sentiment, and it seems the Horizon League can be bought for pretty cheap. As Panther U states in his article, the payoff is expected to be $200,000 with $20,000 for each school to assist with "travel costs." (Perhaps there is a clue in this math that a 10th team is certain this year.) However, I am guessing the conference will deduct a share for itself before distribution to schools; therefore, the eventual amount given each school would be less and not be sufficient anyway to compensate for the various negative effects.

If the article is correct and Valparaiso (along with UIC) voted against this terrible plan, let's give credit to VU and hope this will present more incentive for jumping to a new league when the opportunity arises. Also, let's not let the Horizon League get away with its euphemism of a "neutral site," and if the money really is intended to assist with "travel costs," perhaps Detroit should be omitted from the payoff.

valpo95 · May 06, 2015, 10:51:23 AM

Quote from: valpo95 on May 06, 2015, 10:35:20 AM
This just seems like a terrible idea.

It can't be just a money grab, the numbers don't make any sense: If we assume a simple structure of the campus sites as 7 games played (4 in round 1, 2 round 2, and 1 championship), 2500 fans in attendance, and a ticket revenue that can be shared with the league of $10.00 per seat, that works out to $175K. Of course, not all of the games would draw 2500 fans, but the championship game surely would draw well above 2500 fans. (Again, these numbers are just rough estimates.)

So, why would the HL want to sign a contract for $200K? Maybe it is a few dollars more, but there has to be something else? Do the powers that be think that a large arena atmosphere would be better exposure for the league, even if that arena was half empty? Is it that there is too much of a home-court advantage for the first place team? I don't know the answer, but it seems the answer can't be money.

So I pulled up the box scores from the 2015 HL tourney - the total attendance across the seven games was 15,669. (No attendance figure from the UIC vs. GB played at Valpo - that was the same night as the CSU vs. Valpo game which was listed.) While it is possible not all the fans paid for the tickets or the attendance numbers were estimated, it validates the numbers I estimated above. A $200K payoff can't be much more than was earned under the existing structure.

agibson · May 06, 2015, 11:08:49 AM

Quote from: vu72 on May 06, 2015, 09:42:40 AMNow, I next looked at Indy as an alternative. The average driving time goes up to 4.25 hours but the average for non-Detroit area teams goes down slightly to 4.25 hours.Indy is further for four teams while Detroit is further for four teams as well. I'd call it a push. Bothe cities are very close for any real fan. Valpo will travel well and Cleveland is only 2 hours away. Dayton and YSU are 3.5 hours.

Ft. Wayne probably wins, distance wise?

Not sure how it rates, attraction-wise, compared to Indy or Detroit.

Chicago might not be too bad, distance-wise. And obviously a big, attractive, city. But, I guess people would think of it as a Valpo (or UIC?

) home game.

I suppose Detroit has a wide range of hotel offerings. And, maybe things will move closer to a weekend format. Thursday-Sunday maybe? For serious, kidless fans, it might be a fun road trip.

I'll certainly miss hosting the tourney on campus. I was tentatively considering staying home next year for VU's spring break, to take in more of the tournament.

It'll be hard to recreate the atmosphere we've had at Valpo tourney home games.

blackpantheruwm · May 06, 2015, 11:41:58 AM

Quote from: a3uge on May 05, 2015, 09:21:01 PMBut before the outrage, I'd take this report with a grain of salt. PantherU has no credibility whatsoever and has been notoriously wrong about Horizon League news in the past.

I love you too buddy

oklahomamick · May 06, 2015, 12:28:31 PM

Can someone write a letter to LaBarbera with all of our signatures? Or should it be addressed to LeCrone?

Kyle321n · May 06, 2015, 01:08:29 PM

If Valpo indeed vote against this (still not set in stone, though it will suck if this does happen) then ML agrees with us. Sending something to LeCrone wouldn't do much as he's fairly tied to what the other ADs decide. If 7 are for it, then he can't really say "Haha, just kidding"

oklahomamick · May 06, 2015, 02:21:05 PM

What's the next big announcement? IPFW within hours of our new HL tournament host city, Detroit, will be joining the HL in July.

valpo64 · May 06, 2015, 02:43:54 PM

I think a change is necessary... and that is GET RID OF LeCRONE! Let's get out of this "bush league" and let the IPFW, UMKC, Chicago State. N. KY's be the heart of the Horizon League. If these rumors are true, this is getting to be a big joke! Surely M LB sees the big picture and I trust his judgment as to the future of our conference affiliation.