Horizon League considering Detroit as tourney location?

[gamelord]

I too am totally against this idea. Makes the regular season meaningless since everyone starts fresh during the tournament. Detroit is a horrible city to host this in. I would literally feel much more safer if it was played in Gary, IN. Indianapolis or even better yet, South Bend would be an ideal neutral location. Let's face it, Indiana should be the neutral state geographically for the tournament. I'm all for leaving the Horizon League. Watch their RPI plummet when their #1 team leaves again would be priceless!

[valpopal]

I had some errands to run around Valpo today, and I spoke to eight long-time season ticket holders along my travels. All hated this proposal and none said they'd be willing to go to Detroit. One seasoned season ticket holder told me: "This means that when Valparaiso wins the regular season the reward will be a trip to Detroit where Valpo will be the visiting team to possibly two home teams, Detroit in the semi-finals and Oakland in the finals. Thanks for nothing!"

[valpotx]

The environment at Fort Wayne was good because it was all Valpo fans.  The environment at Kansas City was pitiful, outside of a few hundred Valpo fans. 

[Big D]

I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL. 

[oklahomamick]

I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.

I thought Belmont would like it.  With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year. 

[motowntitan]

I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.

I thought Belmont would like it.  With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year. 

FYI, Belmont lost twice to a healthy Wright State this year.

[motowntitan]

FYI,

I am against this, unless BigD is correct.  However, if anything, move the site to Chicago and Indy every few years.

Also, in a few years it will be in the new Red Wing Arena.  Since Detroit/HL will be hosting the 1st and 2nd round in 2018, this gives the league a warm up.

The big problem I have with all the whining amongst everyone is that you want to be considered a better league, then you need to accept the neutral site games.  The nice thing is that anyone who wants to support the league will know they need to be in Detroit/Chi-town/Indy for the specific weekend before the season starts.



 

   

[vu72]

I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL. 

Location aside, we all would prefer to go the the Valley for a conference affiliation.  That said, remember that the Valley plays its tournament at a neutral site, that being St. Louis.  Just sayin...

[crusaderjoe]

I support the idea of a neutral conference tournament site, such as is found with the MVC for example, although the MVC situation is not directly on-point because no MVC team is located in St. Louis. 

With a conference that has a geographically compact footprint and consists generally of members that are located in or around large urban centers, it is nearly impossible to provide a neutral venue that would not provide some type of competitive advantage for at least one league team while at the same time ensuring the possibility that fans will show up to tournament games within that conference footprint.  Maybe Indy?  Otherwise, Milwaukee, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Dayton or Cincinnati for that matter (assuming team #10 is NKU) would provide an unfair geographical competitive advantage for someone in this league regardless.  Given this, from a practical standpoint, I don't care if the tournament is held in Detroit next year. We will be good enough to beat anyone anywhere as far as I am concerned.  The thing that is bothersome in my mind is the five year deal.

If this proposed move is expansion motivated, as far as timing, the HL should have rolled this out after knowing what was going to happen with UAB and C-USA.  There is still some potential shuffling that could occur as a result of the disposition of UAB.  In other words, this should begin in either 2016 or 2017 at the earliest so that things can have time to "settle" if in fact UAB is moving to another conference.  If we're changing the format to lure Belmont and/or Murray, what good is it implement the change in 2015 if either move with UAB to the MVC? 

[webbvufan]

The big problem I have with all the whining amongst everyone is that you want to be considered a better league, then you need to accept the neutral site games.  The nice thing is that anyone who wants to support the league will know they need to be in Detroit/Chi-town/Indy for the specific weekend before the season starts.

Even if BigD is correct, 5 straight years in Detroit is not "neutral".  It may be about as far from neutral as it can be.  You and OU will have recruiting classes that will never have to play an "away" tournament game for their entire careers.  For everyone else, it will be just the opposite. 

[valpo64]

And to think that someone thinks playing at a neutral site/Detroit will help attract potential new  members to the League??   OK, neutral site OK but Detroit?  You have got to be kidding!

[justducky]

From a fairness standpoint I always thought that the combination of home court plus a double bye was overkill initiated mostly to placate Butler. Personally I would prefer that the double bye format were scrapped and the highest seed home court portion were kept. Having a neutral court while keeping the double bye is just ass backward if the result is a large drop in attendance.

[gamelord]

Maybe this is the fire our AD needs to finally remodel the ARC. I'm sure part of the reason this is happening is because the Horizon League hates our facilities and can't bare thinking about us continuing hosting for the next couple years.

[oklahomamick]

I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament.

I thought Belmont would like it.  With their success they would have a good chance of hosting it every other year.

FYI, Belmont lost twice to a healthy Wright State this year.

But they did win the conference tournament over a ranked team in their hometown......

The same ranked team they lost to by 15 earlier in the season.  Maybe playing the tourney championship in their hometown helped? 

[a3uge]

I don't get how having a tournament in Detroit would appease Murray State, a team that was rewarded with a championship game played in Nashville after going undefeated in conference.

If anything, you've pissed off the best team in the conference last year and likely next year. Why wouldn't Valpo jump at the MVC if invited now?

[valpopal]

Maybe this is the fire our AD needs to finally remodel the ARC. I'm sure part of the reason this is happening is because the Horizon League hates our facilities and can't bare thinking about us continuing hosting for the next couple years.

I was wondering when the issue of facilities at the ARC might be raised. 

I'm not going to address the state of the specifics in facilities, but I will note the atmosphere at the ARC during the tourney was one of the selling points for the league and great promotion for Valparaiso. The ESPN announcers commented upon the energy and intimate atmosphere in very positive ways. Also, go back into the forum thread from the tourney championship and read the various posts about the "great intensity," "deafening noise level," "awesome sound of the crowd," etc. As one post stated, "think of the loudest you've ever heard it at the ARC, and then double it...It was absolutely crazy." Contrast that to the lack of energy at those mid-major tourneys in cavernous arenas at "neutral sites."

I'm sure one of the multiple reasons Valpo apparently opposes this proposal is the loss of such an event as an aspect of promotion and recruiting, while Detroit and Oakland now will be able to point to the tourney in their backyard as a recruiting tool, especially for players from their region.

[FWalum]

I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL. 

Agree with Big D on this one.  While the game atmosphere at the school sites is great and the double-bye home site advantage marginally helped the highest seed get to the NCAA tournament, this tournament format had a small conference feel.  Very few other conferences have this type (or anything close) of format.  Does any conference above us in conference RPI play this kind of gimmicky format? I will readily admit that as a fan, when we are winning I am all for the current tournament, but if I am the 4 seed that made a late season run or perhaps had a key injury early in the season, then I think it sucks. All that being said, I love the fact that the regular season counts for something and it is too bad that this will soon no longer be the case.

[VUfan]

This just shows Finical weakness of mid Major collage Basket Ball When $20,000 per team buys the Conference Tourney, combine this with declining attendance and tough times are Coming.

[valpospartan]

I don't see Detroit being much of a home court advantage for UDM & OU.  Both have a poor average attendance:
UDM - 6th in HL - 2472
OU   - 9th in HL - 2142
I can't imagine them getting much more than that in the tourney.
In addition, I don't think the general population of the Detroit Metro area are interested in the Horizon League.  Heck most have probably have never heard of it. 
If they get even 8,000 at the Joe, it'll be over half empty.
As a native Detroiter, I hope this isn't true.

[a3uge]

I would be willing to bet that this decision to go to a neutral site tournament has a lot more to do with attracting new members to the HL than it does with anything else. We have been going after a few OVC schools for the last few years. They play a neutral site tournament format. I know for a fact that Belmont did not like our previous format of giving the top seed a double bye and home court advantage in the HL tournament. I don't like having the tournament in Detroit the next 5 years. I think Indy would have been the better choice, but I am pretty sure we did this for the sake of future HL expansion and not as some quick money grab by the HL. 

Agree with Big D on this one.  While the game atmosphere at the school sites is great and the double-bye home site advantage marginally helped the highest seed get to the NCAA tournament, this tournament format had a small conference feel.  Very few other conferences have this type (or anything close) of format.  Does any conference above us in conference RPI play this kind of gimmicky format? I will readily admit that as a fan, when we are winning I am all for the current tournament, but if I am the 4 seed that made a late season run or perhaps had a key injury early in the season, then I think it sucks. All that being said, I love the fact that the regular season counts for something and it is too bad that this will soon no longer be the case.

On the flip side, there's plenty of neutral court championship games for lower conferences as well. I thought the North Florida ASUN home game was a great example of how the format works well. Those fans were wild and I'm sure that video looks great when attracting recruits. Conferences above us have the neutral court format because fan interest is decent enough to warrant it. Even the MVC has great attendance for Arch Madness. I really can't see Detroit hosting an event that draws in fans from across the Horizon. I feel like Indy or Chicago would do the best job of that, but not Detroit.

[Big D]

I agree with everyone about playing the games in Detroit.  The best option for a true neutral site that would have still been fairly centrally located would have been Indy.  My guess is that we made the decision on Detroit based on finances.  Detroit is in shambles and was willing to not only host this for free but they are paying the conference 200K a year.  Indy would have been a better choice but they wouldn't have done it for free let alone pay us to play there.  Renting a suitable facility and running the tournament would have cost the HL a lot of money and each school would have spent a lot on the travel, lodging, etc.  Playing it in Detroit saved us that money.  Each school will walk away with 20K for this and it cost the conference nothing.  If we would have done it at a truly neutral site and paid for it, it would have cost each school probably 50-75K by the time you add everything up.  If you look at the budgets for most HL teams, that is significant.  I think that would be the recruiting budget for at least 6 of our men's basketball programs.  I think everyone involved knows this is a big gamble.  They would rather gamble with Detroit's money than our own.

Ideally, I hope this works as much as I personally dislike it.  I think we all want to add a few schools to the HL that we can be proud to have in the conference.  I also think having a true neutral site tournament down the road (Indy) is in the HL's long term best interest. 

[Kyle321n]

Imagine hosting the HL championship in Hinkle! That would have been rich...

[valpopal]

Below is a link to Oren's view on this issue. He does a good job of offering the "pro" side of the proposal, though I disagree with him on a few points. For instance, he finds it "incredibly laughable" that Valpo fans would want to move to the MVC now since it also has a neutral site tournament: "These fans are the ones who are complaining about the regular season being made useless with a neutral site tournament. Doesn't that happen in the Valley? What am I missing?" However, the issue for many Valpo fans with whom I have spoken is not that Detroit is a "neutral site tournament": they see moving to the MVC would be a step up to a multi-bid league and its tournament is in a truly more neutral site. Indeed, if a regular-season champion Valpo were to lose at the MVC tourney, an NCAA bid would still be likely. That is not the case if Valpo were to lose in a one-bid league to Oakland or Detroit in Detroit. Plus, the MVC has enough of a fan base to support such a format. As Paul notes, the attendance at the recent MVC tourney final was 13,552 (though that still means nearly half the 22,000 seat arena was empty). Finally, the MVC tourney has the advantage of a more inviting location, and I am sure more Valpo fans would be happy to visit St. Louis rather than Detroit.


Another point Oren correctly makes is that multi-bid leagues usually have neutral site locations for their tournaments. However, if I remember my college logics training, other factors might be involved. After all, the largest conferences have neutral site tourneys, but does anybody believe the Big Ten or the ACC or others would get multiple bids because of their tournament locations? The 11 conferences that received multiple bids did so because they are the top 11 conferences in rankings. The Horizon League is not, and it does not become a top-ranked league by moving to a new format; instead, its teams need to perform better in a stronger out of conference schedule. Indeed, Oren acknowledges that just as many leagues ("more than 10") with neutral sites still received only one bid, and the Horizon League has received multiple bids in the past using the on-campus format.


Despite my differences—and apparently also the Valpo administration's differences—with Paul on this proposal, it is great to have a sports reporter who regularly presents issues with seriousness and depth to further the conversation.   


http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/valparaiso-university/changes-on-the-horizon/article_aca40226-f48d-11e4-ac81-fbd63dcac062.html

[webbvufan]

I think we all want to add a few schools to the HL that we can be proud to have in the conference.  I also think having a true neutral site tournament down the road (Indy) is in the HL's long term best interest. 

If conference expansion is the driver of this move, then the new schools better be along the lines of UAB, Belmont or Murray State.  If the net gain is a school along the lines of a IPFW, IUPUI or Northern Kentucky, then this move is a joke.

[crusaderjoe]

I think we all want to add a few schools to the HL that we can be proud to have in the conference.  I also think having a true neutral site tournament down the road (Indy) is in the HL's long term best interest. 

If conference expansion is the driver of this move, then the new schools better be along the lines of UAB, Belmont or Murray State.  If the net gain is a school along the lines of a IPFW, IUPUI or Northern Kentucky, then this move is a joke.

IMO, a five year deal to hold the tournament in the city of Detroit pretty much negates any move by UAB to the HL.  Why would UAB travel 700 miles north over the next five years to a neutral tournament site for its conference tournament when St. Louis is 200 or so miles closer and that tournament location is part of a stronger conference?  I'm not suggesting that UAB and the HL were ever in consideration of one another, but if they were, a neutral tournament location in Detroit over the next five years would be an odd welcoming present for a school located in Alabama, wouldn't it?