Horizon League considering Detroit as tourney location?

[oklahomamick]

This hurts Valpo because we just lost a big recruiting advantage.  3 out of the last 4 years with a good chance being 4 out of the last 5 years we have seen a great environment at the ARC on ESPN2.  If we had a recruit on the fence, that experience may have changed his mind and commit to Valpo.  Not anymore. 

This hurt good programs like Valpo and helped average programs like Oakland and Detroit. 

[VULB#62]

This hurts Valpo because we just lost a big recruiting advantage.  3 out of the last 4 years with a good chance being 4 out of the last 5 years we have seen a great environment at the ARC on ESPN2.  If we had a recruit on the fence, that experience may have changed his mind and commit to Valpo.  Not anymore. 

This hurt good programs like Valpo and helped average programs like Oakland and Detroit.

............and does nothing to shore up the bottom of the league.

Heck, even though it's in Ohio , wouldn't Columbus be a better centralized neutral choice?  I don't even know if there is an arena there that would be suitable, but just saying....

And another thought on the choice of arenas:  What's the point of playing in any arena with a capacity over 10K?  No HL game will draw more than maybe 8K with some luck and a matchup of schools that travel well. The HL title game will be lost in an arena that is maybe 1/3 full and amid the echos of sneaker squeaks on the hardwood.  It certainly would not be a good lead-in to March Madness like the games at the ARC.

[vu72]

This hurts Valpo because we just lost a big recruiting advantage.  3 out of the last 4 years with a good chance being 4 out of the last 5 years we have seen a great environment at the ARC on ESPN2.  If we had a recruit on the fence, that experience may have changed his mind and commit to Valpo.  Not anymore. 

This hurt good programs like Valpo and helped average programs like Oakland and Detroit.

............and does nothing to shore up the bottom of the league.

Heck, even though it's in Ohio , wouldn't Columbus be a better centralized neutral choice?  I don't even know if there is an arena there that would be suitable, but just saying....

And another thought on the choice of arenas:  What's the point of playing in any arena with a capacity over 10K?  No HL game will draw more than maybe 8K with some luck and a matchup of schools that travel well. The HL title game will be lost in an arena that is maybe 1/3 full and amid the echos of sneaker squeaks on the hardwood.  It certainly would not be a good lead-in to March Madness like the games at the ARC.

The point was made earlier, and it is a good one, that to play at any other site or city would cost each school a bunch, making it unfeasible.  Detroit is actually paying us, not the other way around.  Still doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons, bt the location, if required, does make financial sense.

[agibson]

http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/olympia-entertainment-horizon-league-reach-agreement-on-mens-basketball-championship

At least for 2016 the championship is still on Tuesday.  We'll see how that works out for them...

I suppose, if I'm home for spring break, I might make the drive up for the game...

We surely have a certain number of Detroit-area students, so might have a certain amount of local support.

[zvillehaze]

"The 2016 Horizon League men's basketball championship game will keep its current Tuesday, March 8, slot on ESPN or ESPN2 at 7 p.m. ET. Additional game dates, times, network information, and tournament format will be announced at a later date."

Would anyone be surprised if they changed the format too?

[Kyle321n]

I think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format.

1 vs double bye
2 vs. double bye

3 vs 10
4 vs 9
5 vs 8
6 vs 7

[a3uge]

Don't be surprised to see a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday schedule to work around hockey. Oakland players would die if they ever made the championship game.

[valpopal]

Since this is a Valpo fan forum and I am a fan of Valpo basketball, I unapologetically view the official announcement from a "what's best for Valpo" perspective, and I see nothing good at all. Valparaiso, favored to win the regular season next year and the following, will now have to play the tourney on the road. The reward for winning the regular season is lost. The home teams always will be Detroit and Oakland (who will receive the advantages home teams enjoy), which the Crusaders might have to play in consecutive games (semifinal & final) even if the double-bye continues. Since the Horizon League has done nothing yet to improve the possibility of becoming more than a one-bid conference, the chance of the regular-season champion missing the NCAA is increased.

In addition, the possibility of showcasing the energetic atmosphere at the ARC on ESPN is gone, as is that event as a recruiting tool. On the other hand, the recruiting opportunities for Oakland and Detroit are enhanced, especially among players from their region. Few of our older long-time Valparaiso season ticket holders are going to be willing to travel to an unappealing Detroit, likely in winter weather, on a Tuesday to attend the championship. Students will be away on Spring break, most likely in warmer climates. Finally, as a Valparaiso resident, I see this as taking potential income away from the community that comes with hosting the tournament: the hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. [Much of the above applies to others in the conference, especially those farthest away from Detroit like Green Bay and Milwaukee.]

There are other negatives, including the Horizon League moving other activities to Detroit, but not a single positive for Valparaiso. I can understand, if reports are correct, why Valparaiso University voted in opposition to this, and I commend the Valpo administration. Let's pray for a call from the multi-bid MVC with a true neutral tournament in St.Louis where even with a loss an NCAA tourney invite still would be a possibility.

[valpopal]

Does everyone see the irony (intended or not) in Valpo's announcement of the move to Detroit by displaying a short video exhibiting the excitement and energy at the ARC during the last tournament accompanied by a dry caption statement lacking any enthusiasm? 


[tweet]596412436619534336[/tweet]

[Vinny]

First, the league moves to add Northern Kentucky, and now this? If this doesn't create some urgency to get our ducks in a row to make a move to a legitimate conference, I don't know what will. This is so moronic, it makes you wonder what's in the water in Indy.

On the bright side, this creates plenty of opportunities for the promotions department - all fans 21 and over receive a complimentary Glock, bulletproof vests for the first 200 fans through the door, Mace key chains for any fan wearing school apparel, etc.

[covufan]

I can understand the HL desire to move to a neutral site, but only if and when the HL becomes a legitimate regular multi-bid conference.  Going to a neutral format will not help this cause.  Until we regularly have 2-3 teams in the top 50 (RPI, Sagarin, whatever), we will not be a multi bid league.  In the off chance we have one team that is top 30 or so, we could become a two bid league if that team is upset during the tournament, but still gets an invite.  The HL tournament approach of giving value to the regular season champion is great for that school, the surrounding community, and the TV audience.  If we go to Detroit for 5 (way too many) years, the only advantage is to those who desire to take a nap during the games.

[covufan]

I think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format.

1 vs double bye
2 vs. double bye

3 vs 10
4 vs 9
5 vs 8
6 vs 7

If the 10th team is NKU, will they be eligible for the HL tournament/NCAA tournament?

[a3uge]

I think they are waiting to announce the 10th team and then they'll announce a 10 team bracket format.

1 vs double bye
2 vs. double bye

3 vs 10
4 vs 9
5 vs 8
6 vs 7

If the 10th team is NKU, will they be eligible for the HL tournament/NCAA tournament?

Yes, they are eligible immediately.

[okinawatyphoon]

Facebook fans don't like it either, if you read the comments on the Valpo Men's Basketball page and the Horizon League page. The only ones who seem to be in favor of the move are OU and UDM fans. 

[StlVUFan]

I think there is another side to this discussion.  I never went but some of the older guys on this forum did go to the tournaments held at neutral sites like Kansas City.  I don't really think the Tulsa tourneys count in that regard.  I think the sentiment is that those days brought fans from every school and had a more "tournament" like atmosphere.  I understand the lowly number of fans at title games if someone other than, in the Detroit case, OU or UDM was playing.  Still, playing at a site in a major city certainly would draw more folks then trying to get folks from Cleveland or Detroit to come and spend a few days in Valpo--no knock on the City of Valparaiso--but to fans from larger cities it would seem hard to imagine what to do with spare time.

DING! DING! DING!

[mvandersee]

As someone who has attended both the MVC tournament and HL Tournament (in Valpo) multiple times, I think that they were both fine in the formats they used this past year. It would be a completely unfair comparison to say that having a neutral site tournament in St. Louis is like having a tournament in a city which houses 2 of the 9/10 member schools. With the tournament being in Detroit I think they'll have to tweak the format somewhat, whether by adding another team, eliminating double byes, or moving it to the weekend (I can't imagine too many UWM, UWGB, UIC, or Valpo fans making the trip to Detroit for Fri/Sat and then coming back for a Tuesday night). Messing with any of those features would pretty much eliminate the top seed advantage that has been in the HL for awhile (which I don't think is a bad thing), while also giving a clear home court/city advantage to OU and UDM.

One of the best features of Arch Madness is that it's in a convenient location and weekend timeslot that allows fans (especially families) to make it there and back while only missing school/work on Friday and I don't think they'd get nearly the attendance they currently draw by playing on a Tuesday. I know that the MVC requires each school to purchase a minimum of 225 all session passes with many schools selling more, like Wichita State's roughly 2300 this season. I'm not sure what the requirements for tickets sold per school in a HL tourney would be, but I would have to assume that a Detroit tournament would lose a lot of the attendance that has been at the school-hosted tournament games in the past. There would need to be a solid base of fans, students, and other attendees to not only make the HL look attractive to TV viewers and recruits, but also to try and keep the tournament there past the 5 years they're starting with.

Sorry for rambling, but as a whole I think it's a bad decision for the conference, excluding OU and UDM, but I'm willing to wait and see the results from the first couple of years to really condemn the idea.

Just as a side note here is how the MVC presold ticketing was divided between schools, sponsors, and students this past season: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9nbIqxCcAA0aGT.jpg

[StlVUFan]

Like ValpoPal, I will state upfront that I come at this from a totally biased perspective -- that of a Horizon League fan.

I can't really evaluate the location chosen, so this is not an endorsement of Detroit.

I love this news because I want to attend ALL the conference tournament games and watch them live in person.  I'm sick and tired of picking one Tuesday night game to watch on my stupid laptop at home and missing the other 3 (2 since 2012, 1 last year).  I want to go and see all the teams play at least one game at a neutral site (I know it's in Detroit, but it's *not* at Calihan).  I want the potential of congregating with fans from all the other teams.  I want to take the extended weekend off and just get away from work and the daily grind and just soak up basketball.  My only regret is that it looks like the Women's tourney is not changing its configuration.

This is what I miss the most about the Mid-Continent conference.  I used to do all of that every year, and even in Tulsa it was a lot of fun, especially 2005.

I don't fully understand the argument Paul Oren made about Neutral site tourneys correlating to multi-bid leagues, but this much I do understand: the format the HL has been using since 2004 is very much the behavior of a one-bid league (Butler was an anomaly in that regard).  The idea of "protecting" top seeds has always offended me.  Top seeds shouldn't need protecting.

I also care more about the games themselves than how full the stands are or how many people are watching.  I have come to this in my college basketball journey: I'd rather go to a game than watch it on TV because the latter layers a whole bunch of distracting hype on top of the actual game (sometimes literally obliterating the action with graphics on the screen).

I get the whole "we don't want to send a crappy team that gets hot as a 15/16 seed just to get trounced" argument, but the real answer to that is to improve the quality of the teams in the conference.  I've had my fill of the artificial fix brought about by the current format (by the way, I think the conspiracy theorists might be on to something about this really being about Butler and nothing else).

I do sympathize with Valpo, who was probably looking forward to hosting again next year.  Obviously, we can't expect that our reaction would be the same if we were looking at a rebuilding year.  And as a partisan Valpo fan, I do feel that pull.

I can't help but remember RB ranting and raving at Kemper Arena back in 2004 about how Oral Roberts was buying the auto-bid.  Think about that: sitting in a Kansas City sports venue, a 5-minute drive for the UMKC team bus, and he's pissed off because Tulsa won the bid next year (I sensed a similar sentiment though surely expressed in a much more mature way by Homer Drew at the pep rally that year).  Nobody was accusing UMKC of trying to buy the auto-bid, and they were a decent contender.  Reason?  Either Valpo fans figured UMKC always fades against Valpo (and they did once again) or they figured Roo fans wouldn't fill the place (they didn't, but they dominated the place in their Qtrfinal and Semifinal games) -- or Valpo didn't hate UMKC like they hated ORU.  The prejudice seemed thinly veiled to me.

I told RB "Would you stop worrying!  We're gonna win it next year too."  LOL...  But anyway, I think Mark Labarbera's public statement on this is just right: We're not concerned about the format or the location.  We're only concerned with being the best team we can be.

The answer here is to move toward a time when none of our knee-jerk concerns will matter anymore, because at least a handful of teams will be at-large worthy and then winning the title game won't be one-and-only path to the Big Dance.  And the way to do that is by every team raising their performance standard up to that level.  Is that pretty hard?  Sure!  It's a challenge, and I love watching teams meet that challenge head-on and do their best to overcome it.  That's why I'll never root for the power conference schools.  Their "challenges" don't impress me all that much.

By the way, I haven't heard anything about them getting rid of the double-byes, and if they don't, I still see significant incentive to win the regular season title.  The motivation is not quite as strong, but it's still strong.

[drewsaders11]

Everything that should have been said was probably already said.  Asinine, no positives whatsoever. We will just have to be that much more confident in our players.

[valpotx]

I am now fully in support of a move to the MVC, if offered.  I don't care about the neutral site arenas that leagues play in, unless it is within the same city of schools in the conference, and especially for 5 seasons.  I have no issue going to STL every year, knowing that EVERY team is playing on the road.  My gut feel is that the HL wants to keep Oakland and Detroit around, and since Valpo/UIC flirted with the MVC, they didn't want to consider Chicago.

[Chairback]

I don't get why everyone still thinks a move to the MVC is possible in the future.  I don't see them adding a team unless Wichita bolts which I don't think they will.  If they did add two teams I think it would be Murray St and Belmont.   To be honest I think we are stuck in the Horizon League for a long long time.

We got passed up and Loyola was chosen over us.  There is no commitment on needed facility improvements.  We have poor attendance, poor marketing exposure,  and we cannot beat a major team.   So we really are not that attractive to other leagues.

I am willing to bet in the next 2-5 years IUPUI and IPFW join the Horizon.

[gamelord]

 The thing that upsets me the most is that it is effective immediately. I would be more willing to accept it if this was going to be done gradually...in 2 years or so. To me this is a big slap to Valpo. I'm starting to think a move back down to the Summit League would be better than staying in a conference that doesn't care about its top school.

[a3uge]

I don't get why everyone still thinks a move to the MVC is possible in the future.  I don't see them adding a team unless Wichita bolts which I don't think they will.  If they did add two teams I think it would be Murray St and Belmont.   To be honest I think we are stuck in the Horizon League for a long long time.

We got passed up and Loyola was chosen over us.  There is no commitment on needed facility improvements.  We have poor attendance, poor marketing exposure,  and we cannot beat a major team.   So we really are not that attractive to other leagues.

I am willing to bet in the next 2-5 years IUPUI and IPFW join the Horizon.

Explain which major teams exactly did Loyola beat to make them attractive?

[a3uge]

The thing that upsets me the most is that it is effective immediately. I would be more willing to accept it if this was going to be done gradually...in 2 years or so. To me this is a big slap to Valpo. I'm starting to think a move back down to the Summit League would be better than staying in a conference that doesn't care about its top school.

You do realize they play their championship game in Souix Falls, right?

[valpopal]

From twitter, here is Michael Osipoff's quote from Mark LaBarbera about the Horizon League tournament decision that Osipoff labels "interesting," and it certainly is interesting how ML distances Valpo far from the league on this issue and uses a "we" and "they" construct to emphasize the gap. The last sentence contains particularly telling phrasing.


"We were of the opinion that the previous format worked well and the league accomplished all the goals it had set under the previous format. But if the league and the members of the league wanted to go in a different direction, that's fine. We're happy the tournament is going to a city that embraces it and an arena that's behind it. It's appropriate that they're excited." —Mark LaBarbera

[oklahomamick]

I'm disappointed it's not a campus but I would have settled for Chicago.