Why Talk So Against The Horizon League?

[Chuck A]

I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I just want to know. Why do some of you guys post about wanting to leave the Horizon League? There are complaints about how bad it has become and you should look for another league, such as the Missouri Valley or even the A-10. Why? Some of you act as if you have become too good for the League when in actuality you haven't. Sure you've gone to the Dance the past few years, but that's it. I know UIC has been in the crapper, but it's not about us. You guys have not won one NCAA tournament game nor gone to a Sweet 16 since "The Shot". So what causes you to think that you are now "too good" for the Horizon? Others say the league has deteriorated into the abyss of lesser conferences. Over the last ten years including this past disastrous season (ranking 16 in rpi), the HL's rpi was 12.1. So I don't see the great decline that some have intimated.

I realize scheduling plays a part. Local Presidents and ADs also come into play by hiring good ADs and coaches. I think UIC has finally got a coach that can get us back into relevancy. Green Bay hired a coach who's won a national championship who will keep them in contention.

If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season. So what's the difference?

[vu72]

I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I just want to know. Why do some of you guys post about wanting to leave the Horizon League? There are complaints about how bad it has become and you should look for another league, such as the Missouri Valley or even http://www.facebook.com/ValpoFanZonethe A-10. Why? Some of you act as if you have become too good for the League when in actuality you haven't. Sure you've gone to the Dance the past few years, but that's it. I know UIC has been in the crapper, but it's not about us. You guys have not won one NCAA tournament game nor gone to a Sweet 16 since "The Shot". So what causes you to think that you are now "too good" for the Horizon? Others say the league has deteriorated into the abyss of lesser conferences. Over the last ten years including this past disastrous season (ranking 16 in rpi), the HL's rpi was 12.1. So I don't see the great decline that some have intimated.

I realize scheduling plays a part. Local Presidents and ADs also come into play by hiring good ADs and coaches. I think UIC has finally got a coach that can get us back into relevancy. Green Bay hired a coach who's won a national championship who will keep them in contention.

If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season. So what's the difference?

I'll bite.  When we joined the Horizon we had a natural and very long standing rivilry with Butler who we beat the last four times we have played them.  We were in a conference with four privates and six publics.  Now we are down to two privates.  We may be competing for the same athletes but not the same students as much of the league.

You are obviously correct about out lack of success in the NCAAs.  You also should have noticed that we no longer are getting drilled by bigs when we do get there.  Last two included a loss by 11 to Michigan State and a loss by 3 to Maryland.  We have our whole team back.  The move to the Valley would help with TV coverage, higher profile games, much better scheduling and the prospects of, if we did get back to the NCAAs, a seeding which would actually give us a chance to win some games.

Take a look at the Horizon:  You understand where UIC has been and I certainly hope you are correct about a new direction.  Green Bay may be OK but they lose Sykes and another starter and face rebuilding to get used to a new system. Milwaukee lost the opportunity to get to the Tourney via academic issues, Detroit is a mess with a really bad coach.  CSU is losing player after player to the graduation rule, NKU still has a year of probation, who knows about WSU.  Oakland looks to be pretty good but then again, there is YSU.

Bottom line: The Horizon in all likelihood will end up with a worse RPI then last year.  If we win it again (now more difficult with no home court advantage) we will, once again, be staring at a 13 seed and difficulty getting that win you asked about.

[valpo64]

Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU.  I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.

[a3uge]

I know I'll probably get blasted for this, but I just want to know. Why do some of you guys post about wanting to leave the Horizon League? There are complaints about how bad it has become and you should look for another league, such as the Missouri Valley or even the A-10. Why? Some of you act as if you have become too good for the League when in actuality you haven't. Sure you've gone to the Dance the past few years, but that's it. I know UIC has been in the crapper, but it's not about us. You guys have not won one NCAA tournament game nor gone to a Sweet 16 since "The Shot". So what causes you to think that you are now "too good" for the Horizon? Others say the league has deteriorated into the abyss of lesser conferences. Over the last ten years including this past disastrous season (ranking 16 in rpi), the HL's rpi was 12.1. So I don't see the great decline that some have intimated.

I realize scheduling plays a part. Local Presidents and ADs also come into play by hiring good ADs and coaches. I think UIC has finally got a coach that can get us back into relevancy. Green Bay hired a coach who's won a national championship who will keep them in contention.

If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season. So what's the difference?

I was right there with you until those last two paragraphs. "If it wasn't for Northern Iowa having a great season last year, the Valley is just a one-bid league as it will be next season..." - that's probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[a3uge]

Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU.  I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.

Why on earth was replacing Loyola with Oakland a bad thing? Ridiculous.

[vu72]

Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU.  I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.

? Ridiculous.Why on earth was replacing Loyola with Oakland a bad thing

Perhaps in the shorter run you are correct.  But taking a longer view, Loyola was a much stronger member.  Historically Loyola won a National Championship in the 60's and held a much better academic name recognition them Oakland, basically a higher end commuter school just emerging from D2 status.

[elephtheria47]

You can't pick the strongest addition to match it with the crappiest team to leave.

The HL replaced Butler with Oakland and replaced Loyola with NKU. A step down on two occasions.

Especially when you consider Loyola was investing into their facilities. I don't know if any other HL schools will have that type of commitment.

[a3uge]

Here is part of the reason for "the talk"...the Horizon looses Butler and Loyola and replaces them with Oakland and NKU.  I wouldn't exactly call those moves a step up or improving the conference.

? Ridiculous.Why on earth was replacing Loyola with Oakland a bad thing

Perhaps in the shorter run you are correct.  But taking a longer view, Loyola was a much stronger member.  Historically Loyola won a National Championship in the 60's and held a much better academic name recognition them Oakland, basically a higher end commuter school just emerging from D2 status.

Loyola's Horizon League history is absolutely abysmal. Compare them to Oakland and they're significantly worse. Who cares about their academics in an athletics conference when their athletics are terrible. Really doesn't make sense.

[a3uge]

You can't pick the strongest addition to match it with the crappiest team to leave.

The HL replaced Butler with Oakland and replaced Loyola with NKU. A step down on two occasions.

Especially when you consider Loyola was investing into their facilities. I don't know if any other HL schools will have that type of commitment.

Their upgrade of the Gentile Center has netted them 0 top 100 RPI finishes in the past 5 years. Again, really terrible program.

You guys act like there's 20 private D1 universities in the Midwest that are waiting to get into the Horizon. There just aren't any, so complaining about not being able to replace Butler is ignorant.

[justducky]

The Horizon in all likelihood will end up with a worse RPI then last year.

I never thought the HL would drop this far but trends once established tend to continue and the explanations for their continuation only become obvious over time. I would say the HL is close to its bottom but some kind of unanimous consensus for change may be required.

If we win it again (now more difficult with no home court advantage) we will, once again, be staring at a 13 seed and difficulty getting that win you asked about.

For Chucks benefit- I do not think 72 would have made this point in quite this fashion had he been debating one of us. 72 knows we can do better with seeding but for simplicity sake he chose worst case over dramatization. Still the Horizon will continue to be a seeding liability for any of its NCAA tournament representatives until the proper course of actions are decided upon and implemented. Business as usual should not be your preferred course of action while riding in a sinking ship.

[wh]

Chuck A. - Would you care to explain yourself?

Apr 2, 2013 at 8:40am QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 2, 2013 at 8:40am
Here is the note I sent to Chancellor Meares:
Good morning Dr. Meares,
I am just sending an email to inform you that I and a number of people in the UIC community, especially alumni that frequent UIC message boards, find this eventuality extremely exciting. Although we are content with the Horizon League and its current membership, a possible jump to a perennial top ten, basketball-centric league would be extraordinary. Playing in a league with current Illinois schools Bradley, Illinois State and Southern Illinois will only help our University when these conference games take place as the Pavilion will be filled with alums from the schools involved. Also having a chance to play games against this year's Final Four participant Wichita State is another cause for excitement. The Valley also has good non-revenue sports and good to excellent facilities for their non-revenue sport teams as well.

Apr 2, 2013 at 3:50pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 2, 2013 at 3:50pm
I actually think our presence would really cause the other teams to ramp up their game because now we'd be in their back yard vying for the same recruits. Everybody would work harder, recruit harder and game plan better because we would be in a better league and they would be in a huge basketball Mecca and on a bigger stage, night in and night out! It works out for both parties.

Apr 4, 2013 at 2:51pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 4, 2013 at 2:51pm
Lately, it has been tough to read much into what PantherU says, but then again, he says he has his "sources".
What do I know?
It would be great if that was indeed the case...that we're in!

Apr 4, 2013 at 3:19pm QuotePost Options Post by GoRamblers on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:19pm
I think the best case scenario is for the MVC to pull Valpo, UIC and Loyola. I know they have balked a bit at expanding to 12 but I think it's a win for all involved (i.e. keeps the private schools in the MVC happy)

Apr 4, 2013 at 3:22pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 4, 2013 at 3:22pm
Yeah, all this is leaving me quite amped up!

Apr 4, 2013 at 8:10pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 4, 2013 at 8:10pm
I just hope we don't wake up tomorrow and it was all a dream!

Apr 5, 2013 at 11:18am QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 5, 2013 at 11:18am
UIC has waited to be in a top ten conference since forever. We can wait a few more weeks to find out our fate!

Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20pm QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 9, 2013 at 8:20pm
The days can't go by fast enough for me until we get to announcement day. I really haven't been this nervous and excited about this program since we got an at-large bid in '98.

Apr 13, 2013 at 6:29am QuotePost Options Post by Chuck A on Apr 13, 2013 at 6:29am
Wow! This was actually reported on a legitimate tv sports report!
I don't know if I can take any more of this realignment talk! My insides are churning like crazy!

[Chuck A]

Not a problem wh. Sure when I heard the MVC was looking to expand, I was excited about the prospect of UIC joining. It has been a top 10 mid-major for years and have sent multiple teams to the Dance. But at no time, in ANY of my posts, did I ever bad mouth the Horizon League or hinted that UIC was too good for the Horizon. That's my only point. If teams want to leave, cool, but why rip the League when LeCrone can only do what he's allowed to do by the Executive Board. My post here asking the initial question was not about whether I wanted UIC to be in the Valley or not, but the bad mouthing of the HL. That's all. So there is no hypocrisy in any of my posts.

[bbtds]

That's all. So there is no hypocrisy in any of my posts.

I would have to agree with Chuck about there being any hypocrisy in his posts about the MVC. Many posters here have bad mouthed the HL and no where did Chuck do that.

[valpotx]

The HL's fine to be in, but I am in the boat of several posters, in that if we are ever offered MVC membership, we need to jump on it.

[blackpantheruwm]

I understand that you guys had such a short time with Loyola, so some of you might not be fully in on it.

Loyola has no future as a dominant program. At no point will they become a perennial NCAA tournament team. This is true whether they were to stay in the Horizon League or kept their move to the MVC. There's nothing there for them. Not unless they start cheating like crazy, which I suppose isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Outside of Youngstown State, is there any school in this conference where we can say that for sure? Milwaukee, Valpo and Detroit have all had sustained success in getting to the NCAA Tournament. Even Green Bay has, although it's 20 years in the rear view mirror.

Speaking of the rear view mirror: Loyola got to build the new athletics facilities because the grand majority of their donor base is reaching the end of their lives and a group of them got together to see if they can win before they die. It's grim but they openly talk about it. Over 85% of Loyola's fan base is over the age of 75. Once they're gone, Loyola is going to have to pull out some pretty crazy stops just to keep themselves sucking in air. Ramblermania (their board) is a shadow of what it once was because half of the regular posters have died. It's sad, but Loyola hasn't been relevant on a national stage since the 80's, and these old folks that make up the brunt of their fan base? They were students and young alumni in 1963.

Cleveland State is headed for some pretty rough Waters (heh). They still have the build-a-major, which will be used by whatever coach eventually replaces Waters. Oakland got themselves up to speed pretty quick in the Horizon, quicker than you guys. Wright State had a historic level of injuries last season - that's not happening again. You're gonna be surprised with UIC - now that they're about to become the biggest bandit program in the H-League, they could be real good in a couple short years.

I was pretty adamant from the beginning that NKU should be in our crosshairs and I'm glad we've got them. But they're still my second choice. My first choice is still Youngstown State shipping off to another conference. Perhaps the continued attrition in the CAA will cause them to come hunt for a football anchor. They do need a 10th team. I'd love for it to be YSU.

Get rid of the anchor and 16 becomes our basement. I still believe our ceiling is 8 or 9.

I did not begrudge Butler or Loyola for leaving the Horizon League, and I wouldn't be angry at you guys if Valparaiso left for the MVC. I only hope we get to go with you. While I was hunting for confirmation on NKU joining the Horizon League (still annoyed I couldn't quite get that one), I heard multiple people tell me that Belmont had rebuffed our advances - and also the MVC. It seems their President believes that Belmont does not benefit from a move up to the HL or even higher to the MVC. That's good. That leaves two openings if the MVC ever wants to head to 12. If they don't, we're   out of luck. So are you guys.

I get that message boards are a good place to let out frustration. As long as they're still a good place to exchange ideas and organize and energize fan bases. Let's worry about getting the whole conference better. Let's unite to push for the subtraction of YSU. Then let's talk about a 10th school that deserves membership.

[wh]

I just have to revisit this. First, Chuck, you have no idea how you would react if you were on the rise like we are, hoping to see our program go to the next level, while half of the other programs are in decline from when we joined the league. In fact I think a more fitting title would have been "I'm completely ashamed and humiliated" with an accompanying post talking about how frustrated you are that UIC has become the worst program in the HL and how badly you feel that your program is more to blame for the decline of the HL's standing and reputation than any other league member. Had you approached the topic that way, I would have been the first to console you, tell you to keep your chin up, and encourage you that your best days are ahead with a new coach.

It's all in the presentation...

[vu72]

I'll repost this here as I think it makes wh's point very clear:

Clearly the horizon has taken huge steps backwards and the one constant is LeCrone.  I'll use Sagarin for results but I'm confident rpi or others would create the same results.

The Horizon League finished last year ranked 18th in the Sagarin's. There has been a steady decline as follows:  2013-2014: 13    2012-2013:  12    2011-2012:   12    2010-2011:  10

I next looked at the individual team rankings and then, to be fair, and to take into account rebuilding years, used an average of the last five years final rankings.  Here are the results:

Valpo    #107

CSU      #119

GB       #122

Det      #144

Oak     #156

WSU    #170

Mil      #185

YSU     #213

UIC     #260

There have been a total of  10 teams finishing ranked in the top 100.  Valpo, 3 times,  CSU 3 times,  GB, twice,  Detroit, once,  and Oakland once.

Draw your own conclusions... 
Modify message

[Chuck A]

I just have to revisit this. First, Chuck, you have no idea how you would react if you were on the rise like we are, hoping to see our program go to the next level, while half of the other programs are in decline from when we joined the league. In fact I think a more fitting title would have been "I'm completely ashamed and humiliated" with an accompanying post talking about how frustrated you are that UIC has become the worst program in the HL and how badly you feel that your program is more to blame for the decline of the HL's standing and reputation than any other league member. Had you approached the topic that way, I would have been the first to console you, tell you to keep your chin up, and encourage you that your best days are ahead with a new coach.

It's all in the presentation...

wh, actually I do know how I would react. The Flames have gone to 3 Dances and I was there for all 3 of them. We had great battles with Milwaukee and before that, with Green Bay when Bob Hallberg was UIC's coach and Dick Bennet was coaching Green Bay. Even then, I didn't beat up the HL. Why? There was no need. I have already stated, on the Flames' board how bad and downtrodden our program has become. Why would I bring that to the Valpo board? I just asked a simple question wh, that's all and I got answers. Thanks for the encouragement.

[VULB#62]

A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert.  Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently.  i don't think that is a good thing.  Set some tough standards and adhere to them.

[classof2014]

LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.

LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.

[bbtds]

If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.

If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years. 

[vu72]

If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.

If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years. 

The obvious choice in the Valley.  Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least.  We could replace that midwest presence.  Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball.  We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.

It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level.  The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!

[usc4valpo]

Crap, the Valley would definitely be a step up. I doubt Valpo is committed right now for the A10 - our faciities are lacking.

[vu72]

Crap, the Valley would definitely be a step up. I doubt Valpo is committed right now for the A10 - our faciities are lacking.

[/b]

You may be surprised to find out that the ARC would fit in nicely with other arenas in the A-10, probably better (seating capacity wise) then the Horizon.  I did a little checking and found the following:  Seating Capacity:  St. Bonnie= 5480    Duquesne= 4390   LaSalle= 3400   Richmond+  7201  Fordham= 3470  St. Joseph= 4200  Davidson="nearly" 6000.  Sure, there are also the Dayton's and St. Louis' of the A-10 but a remodeled ARC, or even the current version, would fit right in, and much better then playing in the commuter school's over grown empty stadiums.  The more I think about it, the more I think it would be a great fit!!!!

[VULB#62]

Crap, the Valley would definitely be a step up. I doubt Valpo is committed right now for the A10 - our faciities are lacking.

I don't buy that. Here are the arena capacities of the A-10 teams (red = private):

LaSalle - Tom Gola Center - 3400
St. Bonaventure - Reilly Center - 5400
Davidson - Belk Arena - 5223
Dayton UD Arena - 13435
Duquesne - Palumbo Center - 4406
Fordham - Rose Hill Gym - 3200
George Mason - EagleBank Arena - 10000
George Washington - Smith Center - 5000
URI - Ryan Center - 7656
Richmond - Robins Center - 7201
St. Josephs - Hagan Arena - 4200
SLU - Chaifetz Arena - 10,600
UMASS - Mullins Center - 9493
VCU - Seigel Center - 7637

Assuming the ARC is 5500 chock full, half of the A-10 schools have venues below the ARC capacity.  The average of all arenas in the A-10 now is: 6,854.  If Dayton left for the Big-East it would take it's 13,435 seat arena with it.  The average would then be 5894.  If Valpo replaced Dayton the average would be 6287.  Our other facilities (soccer/track/VB/SB/BB/S&D) are equal as well.  The A-10 is a great match for VU and it gives the A-10 a Chicago-land market. SLU seems to be ok with being the western outlier.