Why Talk So Against The Horizon League?

[VULB#62]

72, we are in accord -- you just type faster than me.  And it's not a football league (though a number of them - Dayton, Davidson, Duquesne, Fordham, URI, UMass, Richmond and VCU do have programs but are members of other leagues for that)

10 of 14 schools are private and distinguished academic institutions.  Even the public universities are research institutions.

A  season ticket package would be tremendous -- these are classic basketball schools with solid reputations.  Every conference home game would be an attractive battle.  And problems scheduling OOC games would almost go away because VU would be in a conference with a great RPI.

Yay, no commuter schools! Let's do it right away.  Or maybe tomorrow.

[usc4valpo]

I stand corrected. The A10 would be definitely be a great step up. Also, joining the A10 may also have Bryce think twice about interviewing for bigger and better head coaching opportunities.

Valpo really needs to be open to joining a better conference like the Valley or A10. The Horizon is on the downtrend - I just cannot get excited about playing Northern Kentucky.

[VULB#62]

I thought the same thing.  Instead of him moving up to, say, an A-10 school, WE move Bryce and his team to the A-10. 

The increased presence that the A-10 would bring to home games would be a great lure for Chicago and NW Indiana BB recruits -- Mom and Dad would see their son play against some great programs right in their back yard.  And the travel schedule to places like NYC, Philly, and the DC area would also be enticing.

Valpo is a recognized leading regional university.  Bigger picture -- wouldn't this thrust Valpo into the National University discussion?  No doubt that we would benefit in many ways from such a move.  But the A-10 would also do well by this.  We support 19 sports.  We have a solid academic reputation, we are private, we are BB-centric.  I see this similar to Davidson's move recently.  Win-Win!

[classof2014]

I wouldn't be shocked if we have another stellar season, better than last year, that we do get an invite to a bigger conference, whether it's the MVC, A10, Big East.

To me with the trajectory the program is on it's not a matter of if Valpo leaves the HL it's more of a matter of when.

[valpotx]

It was interesting to see that NJIT is joining the Atlantic Sun.  They were the last remaining Independent team, and had a good season, but this had to be protection against future conference moves.

[blackpantheruwm]

A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert.  Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently.  i don't think that is a good thing.  Set some tough standards and adhere to them.

I think the confederation line is pretty solid. And I think Youngstown State is the biggest reason why (that and the League commissioner is mediocre at best). Take away YSU and you have nine schools that are focused on putting together a great men's basketball program.

They have tried to set standards in the past. Before you joined the conference, we passed a rule keeping arena capacity above 5,000. That rule was pointed at us so we wouldn't go back to the Klotsche Center on campus (you know, until Lecrone needed the MVC off our scent. I'd explain but it sounds crazy and it's an extremely long story. I'd love to tell some of you guys in person over some beers). So there is some precedent. But I think we need standards for scheduling and I think we need a conference challenge to make scheduling easier on the conference.

LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.

LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.

Oakland and NKU will both be better than Loyola in the long run. They were at best a middling Horizon League team. I think the only thing I could see you guys really liking about them is that they are private and in close proximity. But they're also a Catholic school, like most of the A-10, not Lutheran.

The move for Valpo here was mutually beneficial. And I think you're doing the athletics program a disservice by just assuming Valpo is Valpo and you were better than us when you were in the Summit. The people who have made up that department - administrators, coaches and players - elevated their game to the better conference and they have done so beautifully. The Valpo of 2007 wouldn't have had the run of the last 4 years that the Valpo of 2015 has had. You guys have done much better.

You know who hasn't done better? The Summit. In our worst (tied) year for RPI since 2000, we finished five spots ahead of the Summit in their second best year for RPI since 2000. So I don't know what you mean. We're just a better conference top to bottom, and travel is so much easier. What conference would you be in where you'd have closer opponents? The Big Ten I suppose. There you'd have more opponents closer to you. See if they'll take you haha.

If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.

If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years. 

The obvious choice in the Valley.  Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least.  We could replace that midwest presence.  Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball.  We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.

It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level.  The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!

Here's the problem with your post. You say the obvious choice is the Valley. Of course it is! The Valley is also the obvious choice for Milwaukee, UIC and maybe even Wright State! But that's predicated on the idea that your school is going to be pursued by the Valley. So far, the Valley isn't biting. You're available. We're available. In my conversations with contacts in the MVC (both schools and office), the plan for now is to stand pat. They don't see anybody as a program that can come in and compete for at-large bids perennially - and without that capacity, why split the conference pie with two more schools? They have told me they'd be adding two, not one, if they were to add. I also know that Belmont balked when the MVC talked to them after Creighton left.

I don't buy that the A-10 is a real option for Valpo. Is it mostly private? Yeah. But those private schools are Catholic, not Lutheran. You guys might as well be Yeshivah University to the Roman Catholics. Well, not to Davidson, which is also a Protestant college (and only 700 miles away!).

Adding teams makes no sense when they stand at 14. When they drop from that number, it's going to be because they lose Saint Louis and Dayton to the Big East - we all know that's the only expansion the Big East is going to do. When that happens, Valpo's closest conference opponent would be Duquesne, a team that's only 420 miles away.

Think about that. If the A-10 would come knocking on your door, here's the distance you'd be traveling:

Valpo
to Davidson - 702 miles
to Duquesne - 420 miles
to St. Joe's/La Salle- 719 miles
to Fordham - 750 miles
to St. Bonaventure - 495 miles
to George Mason - 661 miles
to George Washington - 656 miles
to VCU/Richmond - 759 miles
to UMass - 875 miles

Well now. That's even crazier than I thought. For kicks let's check out the Horizon League:

to UIC - 56 miles
to Milwaukee - 153 miles
to Green Bay - 272 miles
to Detroit - 247 miles
to Oakland - 264 miles
to Cleveland State - 305 miles
to Wright State - 269 miles
to Youngstown State - 362 miles
to NKU - 270 miles

The FARTHEST Horizon League opponent is 58 miles closer to Valpo than the CLOSEST potential A-10 school. If you DOUBLE the distance to YSU, there's still half of the A-10 that's further. In short, the distance would keep the A-10 from being even feasible for Valpo. That is, unless they were to bring several midwest schools in, at which point the A-10 would become a superconference, far too big for its own good (and worse overall than the Horizon League as it stands at 10).

It's us or the Valley. I mean, you could theoretically go back and own the Summit, but I think you guys win enough here to stick around. Face it - we're in this together. And if the MVC decides it's going to add schools, it's going to be you and us. But I don't think that's happening any time soon, so let's focus on making the Horizon League better. And the first thing we have GOT to do as a conference is recognize that Youngstown State is an incredible burden on the conference's biggest sport, so we have to end them.

I think the best thing we can do right now is discuss how we, as fans - many of us have some decent influence - exorcise us of the RPI anchor-demons that are the Youngstown State Penguins. I guarantee you if you talk to Bryce Drew, that would be the best thing he could come up with as far as making Horizon League membership better. I've talked to plenty of coaches who agree.

So guys, how do we get that done? How do we rid ourselves of YSU? Feel free to tweet at me too (@PantherU)

[usc4valpo]

I thought NJIT would have been a better school to join the Horizon than Northern Kentucky - NJIT is a tough academic school and the conference get exposure in the East Coast.

[a3uge]

I thought NJIT would have been a better school to join the Horizon than Northern Kentucky - NJIT is a tough academic school and the conference get exposure in the East Coast.

I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.

[vu72]

A league or conference, by definition, must act in concert.  Apparently, the HL is not a league but a confederation that allows it's members to act independently.  i don't think that is a good thing.  Set some tough standards and adhere to them.

I think the confederation line is pretty solid. And I think Youngstown State is the biggest reason why (that and the League commissioner is mediocre at best). Take away YSU and you have nine schools that are focused on putting together a great men's basketball program.

They have tried to set standards in the past. Before you joined the conference, we passed a rule keeping arena capacity above 5,000. That rule was pointed at us so we wouldn't go back to the Klotsche Center on campus (you know, until Lecrone needed the MVC off our scent. I'd explain but it sounds crazy and it's an extremely long story. I'd love to tell some of you guys in person over some beers). So there is some precedent. But I think we need standards for scheduling and I think we need a conference challenge to make scheduling easier on the conference.

LeCrone needs to be gone. He's done nothing for the HL. Loyola and Butler left, we replaced Butler with Oakland and Loyola with Northern Kentucky. The HL tournament is going to be played in the worst city in the freaking country now! Why even try to win the regular season, it doesn't matter anymore.

LeCrone is damn lucky the HL struck gold with Valpo coming in. If it wasn't for Valpo they'd be the Summit League. If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but Valpo right now is the saving grace for the Horizon League right now.

Oakland and NKU will both be better than Loyola in the long run. They were at best a middling Horizon League team. I think the only thing I could see you guys really liking about them is that they are private and in close proximity. But they're also a Catholic school, like most of the A-10, not Lutheran.

The move for Valpo here was mutually beneficial. And I think you're doing the athletics program a disservice by just assuming Valpo is Valpo and you were better than us when you were in the Summit. The people who have made up that department - administrators, coaches and players - elevated their game to the better conference and they have done so beautifully. The Valpo of 2007 wouldn't have had the run of the last 4 years that the Valpo of 2015 has had. You guys have done much better.

You know who hasn't done better? The Summit. In our worst (tied) year for RPI since 2000, we finished five spots ahead of the Summit in their second best year for RPI since 2000. So I don't know what you mean. We're just a better conference top to bottom, and travel is so much easier. What conference would you be in where you'd have closer opponents? The Big Ten I suppose. There you'd have more opponents closer to you. See if they'll take you haha.

If Valpo continues to play at the high level, another conference will happily ask Valpo to join.

If you are so sure of this then name the first conference that will invite Valpo that is at a higher level than the HL. Of course that is after Valpo plays at a "high level" the next few years. 

The obvious choice in the Valley.  Another possibility is the A-10, particularly if Dayton leaves for the Big Least.  We could replace that midwest presence.  Before everybody freaks out about travel, it is just part of the nature of college basketball.  We would be part of a league with multiple bids and a good tv package.

It is a mostly private conference with schools like Davidson, Duquesne, LaSalle, Richmond, St. Bonaventure and St. Louis, all being of similar size and academic level.  The more I think about it the more I like the A-10!

Here's the problem with your post. You say the obvious choice is the Valley. Of course it is! The Valley is also the obvious choice for Milwaukee, UIC and maybe even Wright State! But that's predicated on the idea that your school is going to be pursued by the Valley. So far, the Valley isn't biting. You're available. We're available. In my conversations with contacts in the MVC (both schools and office), the plan for now is to stand pat. They don't see anybody as a program that can come in and compete for at-large bids perennially - and without that capacity, why split the conference pie with two more schools? They have told me they'd be adding two, not one, if they were to add. I also know that Belmont balked when the MVC talked to them after Creighton left.

I don't buy that the A-10 is a real option for Valpo. Is it mostly private? Yeah. But those private schools are Catholic, not Lutheran. You guys might as well be Yeshivah University to the Roman Catholics. Well, not to Davidson, which is also a Protestant college (and only 700 miles away!).

Adding teams makes no sense when they stand at 14. When they drop from that number, it's going to be because they lose Saint Louis and Dayton to the Big East - we all know that's the only expansion the Big East is going to do. When that happens, Valpo's closest conference opponent would be Duquesne, a team that's only 420 miles away.

Think about that. If the A-10 would come knocking on your door, here's the distance you'd be traveling:

Valpo
to Davidson - 702 miles
to Duquesne - 420 miles
to St. Joe's/La Salle- 719 miles
to Fordham - 750 miles
to St. Bonaventure - 495 miles
to George Mason - 661 miles
to George Washington - 656 miles
to VCU/Richmond - 759 miles
to UMass - 875 miles

Well now. That's even crazier than I thought. For kicks let's check out the Horizon League:

to UIC - 56 miles
to Milwaukee - 153 miles
to Green Bay - 272 miles
to Detroit - 247 miles
to Oakland - 264 miles
to Cleveland State - 305 miles
to Wright State - 269 miles
to Youngstown State - 362 miles
to NKU - 270 miles

The FARTHEST Horizon League opponent is 58 miles closer to Valpo than the CLOSEST potential A-10 school. If you DOUBLE the distance to YSU, there's still half of the A-10 that's further. In short, the distance would keep the A-10 from being even feasible for Valpo. That is, unless they were to bring several midwest schools in, at which point the A-10 would become a superconference, far too big for its own good (and worse overall than the Horizon League as it stands at 10).

It's us or the Valley. I mean, you could theoretically go back and own the Summit, but I think you guys win enough here to stick around. Face it - we're in this together. And if the MVC decides it's going to add schools, it's going to be you and us. But I don't think that's happening any time soon, so let's focus on making the Horizon League better. And the first thing we have GOT to do as a conference is recognize that Youngstown State is an incredible burden on the conference's biggest sport, so we have to end them.

I think the best thing we can do right now is discuss how we, as fans - many of us have some decent influence - exorcise us of the RPI anchor-demons that are the Youngstown State Penguins. I guarantee you if you talk to Bryce Drew, that would be the best thing he could come up with as far as making Horizon League membership better. I've talked to plenty of coaches who agree.

So guys, how do we get that done? How do we rid ourselves of YSU? Feel free to tweet at me too (@PantherU)

Quite a post.  Just a couple of comments.  If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU.  In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.

As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition.  Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic.  If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools.  If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic.  Much different then the Big East.
So then there is the travel thing.  Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work.  The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence.  Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university.  This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.

[blackpantheruwm]

I thought NJIT would have been a better school to join the Horizon than Northern Kentucky - NJIT is a tough academic school and the conference get exposure in the East Coast.

I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.

LOL me neither. NJIT is 383 miles away from YSU, which would be its closest opponent in the Horizon League. We might have made sense for them, but they didn't make sense for us.

Make no mistake, Northern Kentucky is equipped for the long run. Their budget has gotten much higher since they joined D-I and was bigger than most in the A-Sun because they wanted to be here. They used their impending move to Division I to raise money to build facilities, and they will have the best basketball arena, one of the best baseball stadiums, and the best modern soccer stadium in the Horizon League. They're only a newbie at this level. They've got a new coaching staff hired by Ken Bothof, who did a pretty good job hiring coaches at Green Bay and has a bigger budget and better facilities to recruit a coach at NKU.

CSU and GB are going down. That's going to happen. But Milwaukee, UIC, and Wright State are almost assured to be better this season. Oakland should be about as good. Barring injury you guys should be better. I don't know about Detroit, but YSU can't get much worse (started from da bottom now 'dey still 'dere). This conference is going to be markedly better in 2015-16.

I just think this conversation should pivot towards working together to oust YSU. Pull up the anchor and it's easier to sail.

[blackpantheruwm]

Quite a post.  Just a couple of comments.  If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU.  In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.

As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition.  Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic.  If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools.  If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic.  Much different then the Big East.

So then there is the travel thing.  Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work.  The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence.  Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university.  This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.

I get that UIC has been worse than YSU over the last five years. The reason I keep railing against YSU and not UIC is because I know that UIC has potential, as a basketball-only great academic school in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country. In the case of YSU, I have no hope of that. They are football-first, football-second and football-always. And that's OK. If I were a football school, I'd want to invest in that sport or get rid of it. YSU has chosen to invest in football. They haven't invested in basketball. What happened at UIC when Jimmy Collins had worn out his welcome and was losing basketball? He got forced out. What happened when Howard Moore couldn't right the ship? He got shipped out. What happened when Jerry Slocum, a guy who won a lot in lower-division basketball, couldn't get it done at YSU? Nothing. They have not gotten rid of Slocum, he's still there, still being marginal. They've had talent - Damian Eargle, Kendrick Perry, Quin Humphrey, Vytas Sulskis, but they've never done anything. Ever. UIC's been to the NCAA Tournament three times out of the Horizon League. They were an at-large selection in 1998.

I believe you that the A-10 wouldn't have a theological problem with Valpo. But the distance alone should make you weary of the idea. Isn't that why you left the Summit? I mean, the A-10 would be even worse. Sure there's no Southern Utah, but you at least had the Illinois team, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW...there were plenty of opponents you could bus to. Does it make sense to fly the softball team to the east coast for half the season?

[vu72]

Quite a post.  Just a couple of comments.  If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU.  In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.

As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition.  Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic.  If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools.  If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic.  Much different then the Big East.

So then there is the travel thing.  Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work.  The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence.  Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university.  This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.

I get that UIC has been worse than YSU over the last five years. The reason I keep railing against YSU and not UIC is because I know that UIC has potential, as a basketball-only great academic school in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country. In the case of YSU, I have no hope of that. They are football-first, football-second and football-always. And that's OK. If I were a football school, I'd want to invest in that sport or get rid of it. YSU has chosen to invest in football. They haven't invested in basketball. What happened at UIC when Jimmy Collins had worn out his welcome and was losing basketball? He got forced out. What happened when Howard Moore couldn't right the ship? He got shipped out. What happened when Jerry Slocum, a guy who won a lot in lower-division basketball, couldn't get it done at YSU? Nothing. They have not gotten rid of Slocum, he's still there, still being marginal. They've had talent - Damian Eargle, Kendrick Perry, Quin Humphrey, Vytas Sulskis, but they've never done anything. Ever. UIC's been to the NCAA Tournament three times out of the Horizon League. They were an at-large selection in 1998.

I believe you that the A-10 wouldn't have a theological problem with Valpo. But the distance alone should make you weary of the idea. Isn't that why you left the Summit? I mean, the A-10 would be even worse. Sure there's no Southern Utah, but you at least had the Illinois team, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW...there were plenty of opponents you could bus to. Does it make sense to fly the softball team to the east coast for half the season?

Possibly.  That's a decision for folks with much more knowledge of the situation.  The trade off is lost study time and travel expense. The positive is national exposure and that is very difficult to measure.  If, for example, by having a real presence on the east coast and much better national tv exposure, we gain, say 100 new students.  Remember, Valpo is trying to grow from about 4500 students to 6000. Say each of those kids pays, after scholarships, a net price of $30,000.  That is $3,000,000 if my math is correct.

There is a HUGE difference in traveling to play Fordham or George Washington, then traveling to play So. Utah or UMKC.  Again, for whatever reason, Butler and Creighton, with whom we compete for students, saw the sense in it, perhaps we should also.  It is strength in association and reputation.  Hanging with UWGB, YSU and others, are clearly not at our level academically.  That isn't bragging, just fact.

[blackpantheruwm]

Quite a post.  Just a couple of comments.  If you go back to the first page of this thread and look at a post I made concerning the Sagarin results, you will see that over the last five yearsm UIC has actually had a worse record then YSU.  In addition, only Valpo, CSU, Detroit, Green Bay and Oakland have been ranked in the top 100 during that period. So, it isn't just a YSU problem.

As for the A-10, this isn't a theology competition.  Valpo has about the same number of Lutheran students as it does Catholic.  If religion were the issue, surely Butler would not be in the all Catholic Big East. There are three private non-Catholic schools in the A-10 as well as three public schools.  If Valpo were to replace a Catholic school, the mix would be eight non-Catholic and six Catholic.  Much different then the Big East.

So then there is the travel thing.  Somehow, Creighton and Butler, two schools with whom Valpo competes regularly for students, have made it work.  The process would move the public image from regional to much more of a national presence.  Valpo draws students from all over the country, much more so then the typical small private university.  This would only enhance the value of a Valpo degree.

I get that UIC has been worse than YSU over the last five years. The reason I keep railing against YSU and not UIC is because I know that UIC has potential, as a basketball-only great academic school in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the country. In the case of YSU, I have no hope of that. They are football-first, football-second and football-always. And that's OK. If I were a football school, I'd want to invest in that sport or get rid of it. YSU has chosen to invest in football. They haven't invested in basketball. What happened at UIC when Jimmy Collins had worn out his welcome and was losing basketball? He got forced out. What happened when Howard Moore couldn't right the ship? He got shipped out. What happened when Jerry Slocum, a guy who won a lot in lower-division basketball, couldn't get it done at YSU? Nothing. They have not gotten rid of Slocum, he's still there, still being marginal. They've had talent - Damian Eargle, Kendrick Perry, Quin Humphrey, Vytas Sulskis, but they've never done anything. Ever. UIC's been to the NCAA Tournament three times out of the Horizon League. They were an at-large selection in 1998.

I believe you that the A-10 wouldn't have a theological problem with Valpo. But the distance alone should make you weary of the idea. Isn't that why you left the Summit? I mean, the A-10 would be even worse. Sure there's no Southern Utah, but you at least had the Illinois team, IUPUI, Oakland, IPFW...there were plenty of opponents you could bus to. Does it make sense to fly the softball team to the east coast for half the season?

Possibly.  That's a decision for folks with much more knowledge of the situation.  The trade off is lost study time and travel expense. The positive is national exposure and that is very difficult to measure.  If, for example, by having a real presence on the east coast and much better national tv exposure, we gain, say 100 new students.  Remember, Valpo is trying to grow from about 4500 students to 6000. Say each of those kids pays, after scholarships, a net price of $30,000.  That is $3,000,000 if my math is correct.

There is a HUGE difference in traveling to play Fordham or George Washington, then traveling to play So. Utah or UMKC.  Again, for whatever reason, Butler and Creighton, with whom we compete for students, saw the sense in it, perhaps we should also.  It is strength in association and reputation.  Hanging with UWGB, YSU and others, are clearly not at our level academically.  That isn't bragging, just fact.

I wonder who the CEO of Microsoft would be right now if Satya Nadella had to pay $30k a year to go to UWM 

When Butler moved into the Atlantic 10, first off there was room for them and second they had close opponents in Xavier, Dayton, and Saint Louis. On top of that, everyone and their mother knew the Big East basketball schools were going to split off, so Butler knew they'd have a better shot if they were coming from the A-10 instead of the Horizon League. Would they push Valpo over, say, Northeastern, which is within the footprint and has a natural rivalry with UMass? Or James Madison, which is a traditional rival to Richmond, VCU and George Mason? They might go for College of Charleston, to keep their footprint in the Carolinas rolling. What about the MAAC schools that have been pretty solid? Iona, Manhattan and Siena are all schools that fit the A-10 footprint, are successful in basketball, and fit the conference philosophically. In short, they're good fits that won't blow up the travel budgets of 12 schools. There's other candidates too - Robert Morris would probably be the strongest team with their near perennial NCAA Tournament appearances and they share a town with Duquesne (as well as other potential program Drexel).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, they've got plenty of fish that aren't 400 miles from the closest conference school.

Valpo hasn't won in the NCAA Tournament since 1998. Kids born after The Shot will be going to college next fall. You guys go to the tournament with regularity, which is good. But for the A-10 to look at you guys and be like "Hell yeah we'll take the added travel costs," you've gotta do better than that. Davidson had an Elite Eight a handful of years ago. George Mason and VCU both had recent Final Fours, and those teams were in the footprint. There's no at-large history for Valpo. I could tell a few of you probably rolled your eyes when I mentioned Davidson's Elite Eight because they had Steph Curry, but Valpo's entire cache of NCAA Tournament victories comes from Bryce Drew.

The good news on that end, obviously, is that Valpo has an at-large quality team. You lose pretty much nobody (since it looks like Vashil gets his year back) and add a couple great recruits.

I understand the ramifications of moving up to the A-10. If the A-10 had more members near or in the midwest, I could see it being a possibility once SLU and Dayton move up. I just can't see the conference inviting Valpo over other schools out east. Make a run in the 2016 Tournament and you guys definitely move up the list. You gotta MAKE them want you.

[a3uge]

The A10 isn't a good fit for both Valpo and the A10. Athletic conferences aren't just for basketball. You're talking about charters and extremely long bus rides for all sports. The MVC would be the league to move up into, not the A10.

[vu72]

The A10 isn't a good fit for both Valpo and the A10. Athletic conferences aren't just for basketball. You're talking about charters and extremely long bus rides for all sports. The MVC would be the league to move up into, not the A10.

You may be right but the schools fit better for Valpo.  There will be air flights not long bus trips.  I suppose if Valpo was prepared to travel to Sp. Utah and Louisiana that traveling to the East coast wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibilities.  The bottom line here is what panther pointed out.  Just as Creighton and Butler made the A10 and Big East want them even taking into account the added travel for everyone, we need to step up our game and results before the A10 would want to offer us a spot.

[78crusader]

I plead guilty to the charge of being stuck in the 1970s but I think there is something to be said for quaint considerations such as, you know, geographic common sense and traditional rivalries.  I am willing to bet anyone on this board $100 right now that not 1 in 100 people in Valparaiso, Indiana can (1) spell Duquesne, (2) pronounce Duquesne, and (3) identify where it is located. 

Any conference with the word "Atlantic" in it should not list Valparaiso, Indiana as one of its members.  Once St. Louis and Dayton make their inevitable departure from the A10, then VU will be the lone midwest representative and will have lost the only league member, Dayton, that is somewhat close.  The travel will make the old Summit league road contests look like a Sunday stroll from Sheriff Taylor's house down to Floyd's barber shop.  The travel may be ok for the glamour sport that has become mens' bball, but it just won't do for the other sports.  You are going to charter a flight for the womens' tennis team?  Come on. 

We may not have played some of the MVC schools in a while, but at least we have played most if not all of those teams in the past -- and in the case of Evansville, Indiana State, and UNI, we have played them a lot.  Easier to build a rivalry, too, with other schools like Bradley and Drake than, say, Fordham or St. Bonaventure.

Paul

[usc4valpo]

Think out of the box a little...The average combined SAT score at NJIT is 1190, which is very good. This certainly helps the academic integrity of the Horizon or any conference, Also, didn't NJIT defeat Michigan last year?


Let me put in this way - I would take NJIT over Northern Kentucky, IUPUI or IPFW - this is a very good school and perhaps their basketball program is on the rise...

[Big D]

The MVC's picked Loyola in their last expansion for 2 reasons: money and location.  Loyola had a very large endowment and was willing to make a commitment to spend money on upgrading their facilities and increasing their athletic budget.  They went from having one of the bottom athletic budgets in the HL to spending over 14 million a year now in the MVC.  The MVC also picked Loyola because they wanted a school in a new major media market.  The MVC is a conference that actually makes money selling their media rights.  The more major media markets they are in the more they can negotiate for those rights.  The MVC was never going to add Loyola, UIC, and Valpo.  You were always competing for 1 spot.  Now that they have Loyola in that media market you have no shot at ever being invited.  If they ever decide to expand again they will be looking for 2 more schools to get to 12 and they will be looking for schools that give them new media markets.  Dayton and St. Louis are their 2 dream schools because they have good basketball programs, great facilities, and add new media markets.  The MVC is just waiting for those 2 schools to realize that the Big East isn't going to invite them to their conference.

[a3uge]

Think out of the box a little...The average combined SAT score at NJIT is 1190, which is very good. This certainly helps the academic integrity of the Horizon or any conference, Also, didn't NJIT defeat Michigan last year?


Let me put in this way - I would take NJIT over Northern Kentucky, IUPUI or IPFW - this is a very good school and perhaps their basketball program is on the rise...

You do realize the Horizon doesn't sponsor Mathlete teams, right?

[a3uge]

The MVC's picked Loyola in their last expansion for 2 reasons: money and location.  Loyola had a very large endowment and was willing to make a commitment to spend money on upgrading their facilities and increasing their athletic budget.  They went from having one of the bottom athletic budgets in the HL to spending over 14 million a year now in the MVC.  The MVC also picked Loyola because they wanted a school in a new major media market.  The MVC is a conference that actually makes money selling their media rights.  The more major media markets they are in the more they can negotiate for those rights.  The MVC was never going to add Loyola, UIC, and Valpo.  You were always competing for 1 spot.  Now that they have Loyola in that media market you have no shot at ever being invited.  If they ever decide to expand again they will be looking for 2 more schools to get to 12 and they will be looking for schools that give them new media markets.  Dayton and St. Louis are their 2 dream schools because they have good basketball programs, great facilities, and add new media markets.  The MVC is just waiting for those 2 schools to realize that the Big East isn't going to invite them to their conference.

You were probably right until you started babbling about SLU and Dayton. They're not going to join the MVC any time soon and will hold out hope for the Big East until they get in. In the end, the MVC will realize adding Loyola did nothing for them, and if Valpo becomes a perennial at-large contender, they have a shot to switch leagues... or at least a better chance than SLU/Dayton have at joining the MVC.

[usc4valpo]

True, Loyola is in a big media market, but here is the issue --- very few people in Chicago follow or care about Loyola basketball. They have a smaller following than DePaul, and we have discussed that it is a program Chicago does not care about.

The big positive about Loyola overall is that they have big dollars and a strong alumni base.

The MVC would have been wise to select Valpo and it would been a decent fit for all sides.

[Big D]

usc4valpo,
you don't seem to understand how major conferences and networks negotiate contracts.   I'll use the Big 10 as the role model everyone has been following lately.  They recently added Maryland and Rutgers.  Neither school is good at all in football and neither school has a following worth a crap.  That didn't matter at all.  What they offered was large media markets.  Rutgers gave the Big 10 the NYC media market and Maryland got them the DC media market.  Even though no one in those markets give a crap about either school, the Big 10 was able to add the BTN to basic cable subscribers in both media markets which brought in millions for each school in their conference.  All other conferences are moving in that direction.  They want to add schools that make some sense geographically but add new media markets that help their conference with network negotiations.   Those kind of things do not matter in the mid-major world we live in but for conferences like the A-10 and MVC that make money on their TV contracts, it matters.

The MVC knows that adding St. Louis and Dayton is a pipe dream, but they are not in a position where they need to add anyone.  They would rather stay at 10 (and just wait for SLU/UD) than add any other teams that do not offer consistent NCAA at large potential because it doesn't help their conference.  They split their NCAA tournament revenue and TV contract revenue 10 ways.  They are not going to split it up 11 or 12 ways unless they are sure those next additions add revenue to the conference.  You don't add a new media market for them.  You have never received an at large bid to the Dance.  No offense, but you have no shot at the MVC as things stand now. 

FYI, when the MVC expanded to add Loyola, they looked at multiple schools.  They were looking at Loyola, UIC, and Valpo for one spot to add the Chicago media market.  They offered Belmont (and were turned down) to add the Nashville media market.  They looked at Milwaukee but saw their athletic department as a clusterfuck due to the constant turnover of ADs.  They looked at my school but ruled us out because they would rather hold out for UD since we would both be in the same media market and we didn't offer them a school with that at large potential.  They also looked at 3-4 other schools from lower rated conferences.  They decided to stay at 10.  Adding 2 additional schools would have expanded their media markets but they didn't feel any of the other schools offered enough at large potential to help their conference. 

[blackpantheruwm]

The MVC's picked Loyola in their last expansion for 2 reasons: money and location.  Loyola had a very large endowment and was willing to make a commitment to spend money on upgrading their facilities and increasing their athletic budget.  They went from having one of the bottom athletic budgets in the HL to spending over 14 million a year now in the MVC.  The MVC also picked Loyola because they wanted a school in a new major media market.  The MVC is a conference that actually makes money selling their media rights.  The more major media markets they are in the more they can negotiate for those rights.  The MVC was never going to add Loyola, UIC, and Valpo.  You were always competing for 1 spot.  Now that they have Loyola in that media market you have no shot at ever being invited.  If they ever decide to expand again they will be looking for 2 more schools to get to 12 and they will be looking for schools that give them new media markets.  Dayton and St. Louis are their 2 dream schools because they have good basketball programs, great facilities, and add new media markets.  The MVC is just waiting for those 2 schools to realize that the Big East isn't going to invite them to their conference.

You're forgetting another thing that Loyola brought to the MVC - the Chicago recruiting market. If you look at MVC rosters today compared to three years ago, there's considerably more Chicago flavor involved. The northwest Indiana recruiting pool isn't exactly a top tier.

Here's the problem with SLU and the MVC that most of our people don't know because none of us represent either party: they have an antagonistic relationship. There's a deep disrespect between SLU and the MVC that has lasted for a long time. I'm not privy to the reasoning behind it, I just know it's there. It probably has something to do with the fact that SLU left the MVC in 1974. If I'm not mistaken, a small part of the reason the MVC Tournament picked STL as the home for their conference tournament was the MVC thumbing their nose at SLU. I'm trying to remember who was telling me about all this. For some reason I keep thinking it's a former Butler administrator I used to talk to weekly. I'll give them a call today and see if it's them and if they know. Otherwise I'm sure Majerus told some Marquette people and I'll talk to some of those people too.

In short, the antagonistic relationship between SLU and the MVC will preclude them from ever joining the conference.

I suppose that leaves Dayton as a possible team for the MVC, but they don't have the stupid travel that SLU has in the A-10 so I'm not sure they'd be so inclined to make the move. The A-10 is a great league. We all know it. I think they've got more dead weight than the MVC does and the MVC is more geographically friendly so I'd prefer them, but I get why Dayton may not want to uproot and go to another league unless it's to step up to the high-major Big East - they got a good thing going in the A-10.

________________________


I started writing this a few hours ago and have since had a few conversations with some people scattered. Some highlights I can share:

- "It's more likely the A-10 cuts to 10 than replaces SLU/UD with new teams in that hypothetical scenario"
- "MVC probably won't add any teams unless they lose somebody"
- "I haven't heard anything about the Big East actually expanding but it's a frequent topic of discussion in the conference's meetings"
- "SLU to the MVC may not be as crazy as it was three years ago"

It's all speculative stuff from coaches and administrators so take it for what it is - they're speculating just like us, they just happen to work directly for the principals (or used to).

[blackpantheruwm]

usc4valpo,
you don't seem to understand how major conferences and networks negotiate contracts.   I'll use the Big 10 as the role model everyone has been following lately.  They recently added Maryland and Rutgers.  Neither school is good at all in football and neither school has a following worth a crap.  That didn't matter at all.  What they offered was large media markets.  Rutgers gave the Big 10 the NYC media market and Maryland got them the DC media market.  Even though no one in those markets give a crap about either school, the Big 10 was able to add the BTN to basic cable subscribers in both media markets which brought in millions for each school in their conference.  All other conferences are moving in that direction.  They want to add schools that make some sense geographically but add new media markets that help their conference with network negotiations.   Those kind of things do not matter in the mid-major world we live in but for conferences like the A-10 and MVC that make money on their TV contracts, it matters.

The MVC knows that adding St. Louis and Dayton is a pipe dream, but they are not in a position where they need to add anyone.  They would rather stay at 10 (and just wait for SLU/UD) than add any other teams that do not offer consistent NCAA at large potential because it doesn't help their conference.  They split their NCAA tournament revenue and TV contract revenue 10 ways.  They are not going to split it up 11 or 12 ways unless they are sure those next additions add revenue to the conference.  You don't add a new media market for them.  You have never received an at large bid to the Dance.  No offense, but you have no shot at the MVC as things stand now. 

FYI, when the MVC expanded to add Loyola, they looked at multiple schools.  They were looking at Loyola, UIC, and Valpo for one spot to add the Chicago media market.  They offered Belmont (and were turned down) to add the Nashville media market.  They looked at Milwaukee but saw their athletic department as a clusterfuck due to the constant turnover of ADs.  They looked at my school but ruled us out because they would rather hold out for UD since we would both be in the same media market and we didn't offer them a school with that at large potential.  They also looked at 3-4 other schools from lower rated conferences.  They decided to stay at 10.  Adding 2 additional schools would have expanded their media markets but they didn't feel any of the other schools offered enough at large potential to help their conference. 

When I think about it, I don't think anything describes our athletic department better than the word "Clusterfuck." Spot on, good sir.

[zvillehaze]

I started writing this a few hours ago and have since had a few conversations with some people scattered. Some highlights I can share:

- "It's more likely the A-10 cuts to 10 than replaces SLU/UD with new teams in that hypothetical scenario"
- "MVC probably won't add any teams unless they lose somebody"
- "I haven't heard anything about the Big East actually expanding but it's a frequent topic of discussion in the conference's meetings"
- "SLU to the MVC may not be as crazy as it was three years ago"

It's all speculative stuff from coaches and administrators so take it for what it is - they're speculating just like us, they just happen to work directly for the principals (or used to).

Lots of quality input here from vu72, BigD,Jimmy and others.  I think the info quoted above makes a lot of sense.

I don't see much reason for either the Big East or the MVC to expand beyond 10 teams.  That number is perfect for a basketball-centric league because it allows a full round robin schedule.  I know from reading Big East boards that most fans are very happy at 10.  From a financial standpoint, it's hard to beat a model where a 10 team league sends 4-6 teams to the NCAAT, which is what they've done the last two years. 

Opportunities for Valpo would seem to arise if the MVC loses a single team (not sure who would leave?) or if either Dayton or SLU (but only one) leaves the A-10.  In any case, the key is to continue shining up the program (performance/facilities) to make it as attractive as possible when the next opportunity comes around.