Game 8 @ BallState 11/28

[agibson]

Valpo outrebounded by 5.  Insane.

[atkins]

This game had nothing to do with the refs.  It had everything to do with lackadaisical play,  lethargic defense and ball movement, and poor decision-making.  Not impressed by the similarly lethargic coaching, Luke.

[agibson]

Do production teams just go to behind the basket cameras to justify having a second cameraman?

And what's this with not showing you whether or not the free throw is made?!

I appreciate having multiple cameras, but the producer sure needs judgment...

[agibson]

Coach needs to quit boozing and start coaching. people have seen him in bars all over town

That's his _dad_ that's been hanging out at the bar.  To watch his son coach.

[NativeCheesehead]

Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game

Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well.  And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.

I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year. 

[VUSWIM08-12]

such a joke...ball st will finish middle of the mac at best...good bye 8,9, or 10 seed...maybe an 11 if we win out...12, 13 or 14 if not...tevonn didn't need to be rested unless he tweaked it in practice..that comes down on rod moore who hmmmmmmmm...darien needs to sit bench(although he did play decent d) ...lexus needs to play...hopefully skara will get back to early season form...you just cannot have a loss like this...so incredibly lazy...

[valpotx]

There are going to be 3-4 other games like this that we lose, as we aren't a team that is going to win 30 games when playing in the HL.  I would take a 26-28 win season, but that is hard to do when everyone is going to be trying to upset you, with how much they have to hear about how Valpo is going to own the HL this season.

[crusadermoe]

I honestly never bought the hype of being an at-large.   After the Oregons there were no more chances to prove we deserve one. So seeding above #12 was also unlikely.

But this game sucks especially because we are so experienced and deep.   How do you blow so many first free throws and play such lax defense?   I had considered driving to Terre Haute, but I'm not risking money on seeing this type of performance.

This game really shows that we are capable of choking or playing carelessly against Horizon teams and racking up 4 or more losses.  Forget the seed #.   This game shows we could lose in any of the 3 Horizon rounds.   We have to be perfect for all 3 Tourney games or it's all for nothing anyway.   

[a3uge]

This is the life of a mid major. It's easy to lose on the road and we clearly got caught.

It's always been likelier that Valpo wins conference before having the resume for an at large, so I guess it's good that conversation can be put to rest. We're still a great team, but had a bad game shooting, and Ball State hit their shots.

[VUfan]

Well our first Bad Loss the BB powers will not forget it all season. We will spend the rest of the season paying for it. Mid Majors get no forgiveness!!!.   

[justducky]

Who decided to give Jubril and Shane the day off or did Ball St just make them look like they were not there?

[VUOR63]

My question will be answered in future games:  is this a wake up call or is this the way these guys are content playing?

[justducky]

This is close to the worst team performance since the 2011 Iona game! Wait! Did the entire team except Alec have dinner last night at Pepe's?

Yes we were shorthanded but the deep bench that we have been touting seemed to all have taken the day off. Several starters seemed to be absent as well. This was far more than Tevonn being unable to play.

No one seemed to be mentally prepared to play in the opening half.

[a3uge]

Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game

Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well.  And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.

I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.

Great post. I think setting the pedestal at Butler, Gonzaga, and Wichita State is a bit unrealistic. At-large talks, AP Top 25 votes, wins over ranked teams... It's all inflating our (the fans) egos. Cart before the horse. This program still budgets like a mid major, operates like a mid major, has facilities like a mid major, and recruits like a mid major. It shouldn't be all that surprising that Valpo is still just a good mid major team. North Texas and Fairfield have bigger athletic budgets than Valpo. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton have over twice Valpo's basketball budget. Expecting Valpo, with the market they're in, the budget they have, and the enrollment the school has to be a Wichita State, or a Butler, or a VCU is very naive.

Program building is a very slow and difficult process. Look at George Mason, FGCU, and Murray State. None of those teams have been able to turn a great season with tournament victories into sustained success. Butler and Wichita State are the exception, and not the rule. It sucks, but it's reality. This team can still make noise in the tournament, and has the best chance of any mid majors to pull of some upsets, but the recruitment and the operations are just not there to turn this program into a perennial at-large caliber team.

[VU2624]

Maybe too much believin' the headlines.

Ugly

[valpolaw]

I drove up to Muncie from Indy to watch this one live and it was ugly, especially the first half.  We were fortunate to be down only 6 at half.  Alec and EVN didn't get much help from the others.  Too many missed free throws, especially the front ends of 1 and 1, and too many turnovers.  Our defense was pretty pathetic.  Very disappointing loss.  I hope they bounce back and don't have several similar losses such as this throughout the season.   

[bbtds]

I drove up to Muncie from Indy to watch this one live and it was ugly, especially the first half.  We were fortunate to be down only 6 at half.  Alec and EVN didn't get much help from the others.  Too many missed free throws, especially the front ends of 1 and 1, and too many turnovers.  Our defense was pretty pathetic.  Very disappointing loss.  I hope they bounce back and don't have several similar losses such as this throughout the season.   

Don't be too surprised if we do. We've had several bad patches over the years.

[a3uge]

I guess the saving grace is that Valpo lost to a horrible team OOC last year and wound up okay. Maybe this loss will "haunt" Valpo, but in reality every game is equally important. Beating OSU and URI on the road were important. Taking care of business at home vs Iona and IPFW were important. Beating Oregon would've helped us a great deal. Valpo will be favorites in every game and every loss will be a stinging loss.

[vu72]

Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game

Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well.  And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.

I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.

Great post. I think setting the pedestal at Butler, Gonzaga, and Wichita State is a bit unrealistic. At-large talks, AP Top 25 votes, wins over ranked teams... It's all inflating our (the fans) egos. Cart before the horse. This program still budgets like a mid major, operates like a mid major, has facilities like a mid major, and recruits like a mid major. It shouldn't be all that surprising that Valpo is still just a good mid major team. North Texas and Fairfield have bigger athletic budgets than Valpo. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton have over twice Valpo's basketball budget. Expecting Valpo, with the market they're in, the budget they have, and the enrollment the school has to be a Wichita State, or a Butler, or a VCU is very naive.
Program building is a very slow and difficult process. Look at George Mason, FGCU, and Murray State. None of those teams have been able to turn a great season with tournament victories into sustained success. Butler and Wichita State are the exception, and not the rule. It sucks, but it's reality. This team can still make noise in the tournament, and has the best chance of any mid majors to pull of some upsets, but the recruitment and the operations are just not there to turn this program into a perennial at-large caliber team.

Boy A3uge, I generally respect your posts but this one doesn't make a lot of sense.  So North Texas (student body size:about 40,000) and Fairfield spend more on basketball then we do? What exactly is your point?  How is that working out for them??  As for emrollment?  Butler is about the same as Valpo.  As 62 posted awhile ago, this was a trap game and one that they were very much focused on.  The announcers basicly said the UCLA under John Wooden was in the house.  Their biggest win since 2008!  It is a shame but we should have known this was going to happen, it will happen to almost everyone. Look, 15th ranked Miami lost, at home, to NORTHEASTERN!!  Northeastern had just lost to Miami of Ohio!  Miami (Fla) had beaten mighty Butler by 10!  Stuff happens!!

Now, back to the game.  It is a shame that Shane missed the flight back from OSU,  We could have used him today.  The game clearly showed how valuable Tevonn is.  We looked dreadful with the notable exception of AP.  He possesses that Bryce Drew quality of not letting his team get blown out when everyone else was playing at a level which should have produced a 20 point loss. He put the team on his back and played brilliantly with NBA scouts in the house.

My guess is we will pound who ever is next.  Practices won't be fun nor should they be.  Terrible, just terrible...

[a3uge]

Hello Fellow 'Saders
Recent grad here and my first post! Sucks it had to be after this game

Couple of thoughts:
-There really is no overstating how bad of a loss this is. We can point to one or two players or issues but that really doesn't excuse anything. The chance of an at large bid now is not slim, but completely none.
-We as a program are not ready to make the next step. Go back and look at the mid majors who have evolved. There are two big steps. The misconception is that having big wins against power five schools is the first. The first is not losing games you shouldn't. Butler, Gonzaga, Wichita State, etc, were doing that for years prior to their arrival at the so called "Next Level". Bad teams will be up for you night after night and you have to bring the intensity to the floor each and every game.
-Your season now comes down to two days in March. The need to at least be in the convo for at large berth is due to the high probability of playing a "neutral" court game against an Oakland team that can shoot very well.  And even with an auto berth a seed higher than 12 will be near impossible.

I try to not be too doomy after losses, but this one will haunt this team all year.

Great post. I think setting the pedestal at Butler, Gonzaga, and Wichita State is a bit unrealistic. At-large talks, AP Top 25 votes, wins over ranked teams... It's all inflating our (the fans) egos. Cart before the horse. This program still budgets like a mid major, operates like a mid major, has facilities like a mid major, and recruits like a mid major. It shouldn't be all that surprising that Valpo is still just a good mid major team. North Texas and Fairfield have bigger athletic budgets than Valpo. Wichita State, VCU, Dayton have over twice Valpo's basketball budget. Expecting Valpo, with the market they're in, the budget they have, and the enrollment the school has to be a Wichita State, or a Butler, or a VCU is very naive.
Program building is a very slow and difficult process. Look at George Mason, FGCU, and Murray State. None of those teams have been able to turn a great season with tournament victories into sustained success. Butler and Wichita State are the exception, and not the rule. It sucks, but it's reality. This team can still make noise in the tournament, and has the best chance of any mid majors to pull of some upsets, but the recruitment and the operations are just not there to turn this program into a perennial at-large caliber team.

Boy A3uge, I generally respect your posts but this one doesn't make a lot of sense.  So North Texas (student body size:about 40,000) and Fairfield spend more on basketball then we do? What exactly is your point?  How is that working out for them??  As for emrollment?  Butler is about the same as Valpo.  As 62 posted awhile ago, this was a trap game and one that they were very much focused on.  The announcers basicly said the UCLA under John Wooden was in the house.  Their biggest win since 2008!  It is a shame but we should have known this was going to happen, it will happen to almost everyone.

Both North Texas and Fairfield spend about the same as us. Having a big budget translates to better facilities, which translates to better conferences and better recruits. Without a bigger budget, I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect Valpo to elevate its program to that of Wichita State, VCU and Butler, three teams that spend over twice that of Valpo and have great facilities.

I'm not dooming the program based on this loss... but rather that we'll probably never be at the Wichita State/Butler level due to external factors like athletic budgets, conference affiliation, TV markets, and facilities. We do a great job with what we have, but I'm cynical that Valpo's program will never be anything more than a good mid major team instead of a perennial at-large that wins tournament games consistently.

[NativeCheesehead]

A3,  I agree we will never be Butler. But maybe in shooting for that level, we become a perennial tournament team who can win a game every year or two. Butler openly claims they want to be the next Duke. Will they ever be Duke? No. But in aiming for that look what they've become. Aim high.

[VULB#62]

Leading into the season, I expressed a concern that although we had the same team back and even if they all were a year older, they were the same team in personality and had the same approach to the game as last year's team.

After the OSU game I posted the following and was criticized for being Gloomy Gus.

"After the luster wears off, let's see how we handle Ball State. If we crush them, we've got a legit monster. If we just cruise by, we will have to postpone judgment. If we lose in Muncie.......   Whoa!  (Sorry, but that IS a possibility). "

Before this game on this string, I voiced my concern over this being a trap game and our team not rising to the occasion. 

Why?  Because this very good collection of athletes and their coaches, IMO, have a low "team intensity baseline." What I mean by that is they collectively do not YET possess the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude required to dominate games they should win and CONSISTENTLY pull out really tough games with just pure guts. How intense is every practice? How competitive is every 3 on 3,  5 on 5.  Any bruises?  "You play as you practice" right?  Given what's on the line and the enormous expectations, this team should be coming out of the locker room EVERY game with steam coming out of their ears knowing they have something to prove to the whole world.  That didn't happen consistently last year and to my view the overall approach has not really changed.

But all is not lost. Attitudes can change.  Overnight. But it has to be a conscience decision on the part of all of the members of the MBB program in concert.  Time for the "come to Jesus" talk.

[humbleopinion]

I have to admit that I was not in a pleasant mood after yesterday's game -- it was better for me to do chores outside than to interact with the family.  After a night's sleep, I am curious about the psychology of increased expectations.  Of those who responded to the November poll, 70% of us predicted that Valpo would lose two or more games in November.  We lost two.  Somewhere we convinced ourselves that we could count on an afternoon spent watching the team elevating our own sense of well-being.  We were let down yesterday.

I predict that the sun will come up in another couple of hours.  I predict  team will get back to work.  I hope that they get healthy. I hope Darien gets his mind right, so his shot starts falling.  I hope that the team can find joy in the game.  I know that the team will lose its last game of the year.  Until that time, I know I will find moments of joy watching them.

[RS]

Thanks humbleopinion.  You are so right.  All the hard work put in so far this year should be taken into account. WithT Walker out, Skara still not physically capable of putting in quality time, and Jubril not feeling well it was a game that really pushed our team depth. Give credit to Ball State though. Perhaps we needed to come back to a more realistic opinion of where the team is. Valpo definitely needs more scoring from players beside Peters. The defense will always be there even with the lapses VU had yesterday. As Humbleopinion said let's get healthy. Aim to winning the horizon league tournament and carry on from there. There will always be let downs. Every team  VU plays this yer will be bringing in their "A" game to beat VU. Go Valpo from someone who picked us to be 7-1.

[a3uge]

Leading into the season, I expressed a concern that although we had the same team back and even if they all were a year older, they were the same team in personality and had the same approach to the game as last year's team.

After the OSU game I posted the following and was criticized for being Gloomy Gus.

"After the luster wears off, let's see how we handle Ball State. If we crush them, we've got a legit monster. If we just cruise by, we will have to postpone judgment. If we lose in Muncie.......   Whoa!  (Sorry, but that IS a possibility). "

Before this game on this string, I voiced my concern over this being a trap game and our team not rising to the occasion. 

Why?  Because this very good collection of athletes and their coaches, IMO, have a low "team intensity baseline." What I mean by that is they collectively do not YET possess the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude required to dominate games they should win and CONSISTENTLY pull out really tough games with just pure guts. How intense is every practice? How competitive is every 3 on 3,  5 on 5.  Any bruises?  "You play as you practice" right?  Given what's on the line and the enormous expectations, this team should be coming out of the locker room EVERY game with steam coming out of their ears knowing they have something to prove to the whole world.  That didn't happen consistently last year and to my view the overall approach has not really changed.

But all is not lost. Attitudes can change.  Overnight. But it has to be a conscience decision on the part of all of the members of the MBB program in concert.  Time for the "come to Jesus" talk.

You set the bar pretty high if you don't think last year's team was able to consistently win games with the right attitude - Valpo finished with the most wins in the history of the program, the lowest RPI, and the best winning percentage since the 40's. It's surprising that our "team intensity baseline" is so low for a team that is among the best in the country defensively, both this year and last year. I'm surprised that anyone could call last year's team anything other than a high intensity team. I seem to recall players constantly diving for loose balls and playing suffocating defense. It could perhaps just be that Valpo played one stinker on the road, and still has the capacity and attitude to win consistently with high intensity.