Game 8 @ BallState 11/28

[HC]

    How dare you post something that makes sense, a3uge! This is a fan board where we irrationally respond to every high (rankings and at large births) and low (losing a single game on the road).

[VULB#62]

...... Of those who responded to the November poll, 70% of us predicted that Valpo would lose two or more games in November.  We lost two.

I was among the 70%. I'm thinking that most who joined me figured the two losses would come from some combination of OU, OSU, URI, or Iona. I took Ball State as a lock win. Therein lies the extreme disappointment.

Four days to get a bit healthier and get our collective heads on straight (and bolted in that position, please) and approach every subsequent game knowing there is a big target, not only  on our back, but on our chest as well.  Every game is a championship game to our opponents. We have to be ready to play at that level every time out. Gotta play with an attitude from here on out. Take no prisoners.  Be nice after the game.

[vu72]

I don't think we should lower our expectations at all.  We lost to Ball State because they played great, at home, and we weren't the team that beat OSU and was down to top 25 Oregon by 2 with 27 seconds to go, both, on the road. We did that without David Skara.

We are and can be a great team which should be in or near the top 25.  The team that played yesterday wasn't that team.  With three key guys out we aren't the same.  When we lose to a lesser opponent when at full strength, then I to will be on the ledge. 

[VULB#62]

You set the bar pretty high if you don't think last year's team was able to consistently win games with the right attitude - Valpo finished with the most wins in the history of the program, the lowest RPI, and the best winning percentage since the 40's. It's surprising that our "team intensity baseline" is so low for a team that is among the best in the country defensively, both this year and last year. I'm surprised that anyone could call last year's team anything other than a high intensity team. I seem to recall players constantly diving for loose balls and playing suffocating defense. It could perhaps just be that Valpo played one stinker on the road, and still has the capacity and attitude to win consistently with high intensity.
[/quote[/]

You're right. I stand corrected. Along with Ball State yesterday, @ Missouri, UNM, @ Oakland, @ GB and @ Detroit last year, I do recall a high intensity team with players diving for loose balls and playing suffocating defense for 40 minutes. Seriously, going over the strings for those 2014-15 losses I noted the same exasperation by posters that was seen after yesterday's game.  Yes, the overall body of work last year was exemplary. But buried in that body of work were some stinkers that posters other than me attributed to, for lack of a better term, low intensity. That's my point. An added year of experience and maturity for the exact same team, IMO, should move that overall baseline higher than last year's. The Ball State loss, hopefully, a3uge, is that one stinker this year.  That's my hope too.  And maybe it was necessary to remind everybody that they can't let down and that they will sustain championship form from here on.  In retrospect, it might just wind up up being the pivotal game in this season.

[justducky]

I honestly never bought the hype of being an at-large.   After the Oregons there were no more chances to prove we deserve one. So seeding above #12 was also unlikely.

We have an at-large quality team and we needed an at-large quality OOC schedule. That was our first and perhaps biggest mistake even if it was an unavoidable one.

As for doing it the Butler way yes we should have forgotten that Ball St is a long time just down the road rival and replaced them on the schedule with a home game against the likes of Southern Utah, Citadel, or maybe College of Faith.   

[crusader05]

This loss was a hard one, but in retrospect I feel like I should have seen it coming.

The first game after our 7 game marathon with multiple time zone changes following a holiday.  The adrenaline from the Oregon games crashed and probably every ache and pain and exhaustion hit in.  They played like they were tired and in a mental fog and they probably would. It's the catch 22 of mid major scheduling. You have to jump on the opportunities you get but those opportunities are often not in the way you want. We still should have one that game. But my guess is that this isn't (hopefully) a sign of anything majorly wrong with the team as much of an example of a large combination of variables that we just couldn't overcome. 

[justducky]

Now, back to the game.  It is a shame that Shane missed the flight back from OSU,  We could have used him today. 

I had not previously heard of this or of the hand and foot mild frostbite he suffered while hitchhiking back across the Rockies. Yes had he made it to Muncie it certainly might have helped. 

[VUfan]

They still pretty Good on to Belmont! We can't change the past, now for the future....... 

[usc4valpo]

I will say this - any discussion of the Saders being a top 25 team should be put to rest for at least a month. The Saders have a lot of wood chopping to do.

[VULB#62]

Now, back to the game.  It is a shame that Shane missed the flight back from OSU,  We could have used him today. 

I had not previously heard of this or of the hand and foot mild frostbite he suffered while hitchhiking back across the Rockies. Yes had he made it to Muncie it certainly might have helped. 

If this is true, Shane has set a new standard for toughness for a Valpo BB player. He also gets the dedicated player of the weekend award.

[StlVUFan]

I got to drive home 5 hours to STL with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Ball State obviously played very well, suggesting the possibility that they are underrated at the moment, but upon further reflection we were often a bit too slow on defense.  It didn't register at the time, but later I remembered too many possessions where they just blew by our guys and made it to the basket for an easy shot (to say nothing of finding an open man under the basket several times including very late in the game at a crucial spot).  I see from Paul's writeup that Jubril had headaches and maybe there were a couple others at less than 100%.

Meanwhile, FT shooting was atrocious and unacceptable.  They finally missed a few in the 2nd half to let us back in the game, and for the game, they weren't too much better than we were (though the edge was 3 pts, ironically enough).  Keith Carter in particular is constantly shooting them too hard, bouncing off the back of the rim.

As for Keith, one of his problems is that he constantly ended up guarding a guy 6-8 inches taller than him after a switch.  We really did not handle their screens very well in my opinion.  He got owned several times by some big player who easily took him to the hoop.  I recall one time he managed to recover and get a steal, but I cringed every time I saw him trying to guard a big guy.  He hit one 3, but his 3 pt shooting is still off.  It was kind of hard to see much positive value he brought to the game.

I was not shocked to see Skara only play 3 minutes.  Obviously Bryce tried him out to see if he could make an impact, and he couldn't.  Sort of like Tevonn last year in the title game against Green Bay.  Speaking of which, I sure hope Tevonn played through his injury out west because they thought it wasn't that bad and the result showed them it was more serious than that, because otherwise it looks like they decided they didn't really need him in this game (which I would say was a tragic mistake).

Having pretty well covered the dominant reasons for the loss, I'm going to go ahead and say a few words about the officiating.  I trust my intent won't be misconstrued.

Shane Hammink's fifth foul looked like an absolutely atrocious call.  I was beside myself.  I also thought Darian got fouled on a 3pt attempt in the first half and there was a ref standing right there.  It's possible it looked worse from across the way than it actually was.  When the BSU coach was screaming for a traveling call on Peters late in the game, I thought they also could have called a foul on his defender.  There were some other calls in the 2nd half that made the game feel a little like that game against Evansville several years ago when Homer got kicked out.

Of course I wasn't as vigilant about scoping out cases where Valpo benefited, but I'm sure there were some.  I'll also say that there was one time they called a freedom-of-movement foul on Valpo and several Valpo fans behind me were screaming about it and I said it was the right call.

I honestly thought if we played good defense (it looked fairly good in the first half) and keep driving the lane on offense, we'd still win.  I was confident after we tied the score, but then we got into a transition mess with them and they got the upper hand again.

In short, I agree with Luke Gore.  Our defense was significantly lacking and that was a big factor.

Perspective:  according to Hustle Belt, this was the biggest win BSU has had since 2003.  We're not suddenly no big deal if that's true.  It was a bump in the road, most likely enough to derail any hope of at-large, but the odds were heavily in favor of that.  The bitter taste in my mouth has been gone for a couple of days.

[a3uge]

I got to drive home 5 hours to STL with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Ball State obviously played very well, suggesting the possibility that they are underrated at the moment, but upon further reflection we were often a bit too slow on defense.  It didn't register at the time, but later I remembered too many possessions where they just blew by our guys and made it to the basket for an easy shot (to say nothing of finding an open man under the basket several times including very late in the game at a crucial spot).  I see from Paul's writeup that Jubril had headaches and maybe there were a couple others at less than 100%.

Meanwhile, FT shooting was atrocious and unacceptable.  They finally missed a few in the 2nd half to let us back in the game, and for the game, they weren't too much better than we were (though the edge was 3 pts, ironically enough).  Keith Carter in particular is constantly shooting them too hard, bouncing off the back of the rim.

As for Keith, one of his problems is that he constantly ended up guarding a guy 6-8 inches taller than him after a switch.  We really did not handle their screens very well in my opinion.  He got owned several times by some big player who easily took him to the hoop.  I recall one time he managed to recover and get a steal, but I cringed every time I saw him trying to guard a big guy.  He hit one 3, but his 3 pt shooting is still off.  It was kind of hard to see much positive value he brought to the game.

I was not shocked to see Skara only play 3 minutes.  Obviously Bryce tried him out to see if he could make an impact, and he couldn't.  Sort of like Tevonn last year in the title game against Green Bay.  Speaking of which, I sure hope Tevonn played through his injury out west because they thought it wasn't that bad and the result showed them it was more serious than that, because otherwise it looks like they decided they didn't really need him in this game (which I would say was a tragic mistake).

Having pretty well covered the dominant reasons for the loss, I'm going to go ahead and say a few words about the officiating.  I trust my intent won't be misconstrued.

Shane Hammink's fifth foul looked like an absolutely atrocious call.  I was beside myself.  I also thought Darian got fouled on a 3pt attempt in the first half and there was a ref standing right there.  It's possible it looked worse from across the way than it actually was.  When the BSU coach was screaming for a traveling call on Peters late in the game, I thought they also could have called a foul on his defender.  There were some other calls in the 2nd half that made the game feel a little like that game against Evansville several years ago when Homer got kicked out.

Of course I wasn't as vigilant about scoping out cases where Valpo benefited, but I'm sure there were some.  I'll also say that there was one time they called a freedom-of-movement foul on Valpo and several Valpo fans behind me were screaming about it and I said it was the right call.

I honestly thought if we played good defense (it looked fairly good in the first half) and keep driving the lane on offense, we'd still win.  I was confident after we tied the score, but then we got into a transition mess with them and they got the upper hand again.

In short, I agree with Luke Gore.  Our defense was significantly lacking and that was a big factor.

Perspective:  according to Hustle Belt, this was the biggest win BSU has had since 2003.  We're not suddenly no big deal if that's true.  It was a bump in the road, most likely enough to derail any hope of at-large, but the odds were heavily in favor of that.  The bitter taste in my mouth has been gone for a couple of days.

While it's indisputable that you're bad luck, I do wish Valpo had more fans like you that traveled a bit too support the team. We have a hard enough time getting people to travel an hour from Chicago to go to a home game, so it's awesome whenever someone dedicates their time to support the program.

[wh]

I don't think anyone has touched on this, but I'm wondering when was the last time the team had a full practice prior to the Ball State game. They had a travel day before playing Oregon, followed by another travel day prior to playing Oregon State, followed by a layover and Nike tour before flying home on Wed., followed by thanksgiving break from Wed. night to Fri. morning, which became yet another travel day for Sat's. game. With that schedule I can't imagine they did much more than talk about their game strategy and have walk-throughs and shoots rounds.

And on Saturday, they looked like a team that hasn't been practicing enough and exacerbated it with holiday downtime at the worst possible time. They came out flat, settled for perimeter jump shots early in the shot clock, missed 3 consecutive front halves of 1-and-1's, looked lethargic on defense, we're slow to double team the post and recover, did a terrible job of boxing out (especially when playing zone, etc.

I also agree with stl that if Tevonn doesn't have a serious knee injury and Bryce just decided to rest him knowing Jubril was sick and David was questionable, that was an inexcusably terrible decision in a game where a win would have elevated the status of the program to top 25 potential - something that has now been lost for the forseeable future - if not the rest of the year. Last, but not least, as long as I'm venting, what was that last play about where Alec was doubled up and Keith threw up a desperation 3 at the buzzer. No picks or screens to try to get Alec free. Just bring the ball over half court and lob it directly over to Alec, who of course had 2 guys draped all over him. That's the best we could do?

[HC]

Take the loss, let Tevo rest. Rather he miss one game now then a month later.

How many games does Bryce need to win before you guys finally realize he knows more about his team then you do?

[StlVUFan]

Take the loss, let Tevo rest. Rather he miss one game now then a month later.

How many games does Bryce need to win before you guys finally realize he knows more about his team then you do?

I actually assume that Bryce sat Tevonn because it was more serious than they first thought.

You have to admit, the fact that he injured it against IU-Kokomo, played against OU and OSU, and then sits out against Ball State does lend itself to the interpretation that he took BSU lightly.  It was kind of weird.  Interestingly enough, the writeup at valpoathletics.com said he injured it in Oregon, which is a contradiction of what was reported on Saturday.  Then again, maybe he re-injured it in Oregon.  That would make sense too.

I don't seriously think Bryce did that, I was just entertaining the thought since it was so compelling.  Certainly if this saves him from multiple absences later, I'm good with it.

[valpo64]

I too was at the BSU game...we looked like we were full of turkey, tired and un-inspired...except for Alec.  I'm with you, wh, the last play was a lack of everything...from coaching to players executing.  I just cannot imagine that we do not have a play for
Alec to take the last shot, I don't care if 3 guys are on him.  He sees the floor so well that even if it was impossible for AP to get a shot off, he would find an open guy under the bucket or wherever. Now that it's over, maybe our "bad" OOC game is out of the way.  While we were a 9 point favorite entering the game, I think we should have been 15 to 20 points better than BSU.  We were bigger, stronger , better shooters and better defensively but that sure is not the way we played.

Go Valpo!  Beat Bellmont!

[bbtds]

(rankings and at large births) and low (losing a single game on the road).

How many pounds are you talking for those large babies being born?   

[humbleopinion]

I don't think anyone has touched on this, but I'm wondering when was the last time the team had a full practice prior to the Ball State game.

I really can't say how much they practiced, but as I was walking off my Thanksgiving meal, I passed by the ARC and noticed that there were quite a few cars parked in back.  One of the cars that pulled up, had an illinois license plate that read "A Pete".  I'm guessing that the basketball team was on the floor on Thursday evening either officially or unofficially.

[talksalot]

so looking back over the years...statistics would predict our loss at Ball State....

In the 8th game of the year... over the past 30 years, we are 12-18. ...  that is the second worst W/L %.  Game #28 we are 10-19 over the past 20 years... that will be our game against Cleveland State at Quicken Loans Arena.

looking ahead...
game #  opponent    W/L
9          Belmont       15-14
10   Indiana State     15-14
11   Chicago State    14-15
12  Missouri State     20-9
13      Belmont          18-11
14          UIC             17-12
15      Oakland          12-17   (same as Ball State before the loss)
16        Detroit          16-13
17     Milwaukee        16-13
18    Green Bay         16-13
19   Youngstown St   19-10
20     Wright State     22-7     (tied for best record)
21    Northern Ky      18-11
22   Cleveland State  14-15
23   Youngstown St   19-10
24        UIC               16-13
25    Northern Ky      16-13
26  Wright State        22-7  (notice we play them again)
27  Cleveland State   10-19
=====
28  Oakland               20-7  (we did not play 28 games in all seasons)
29   Detroit                15-6
30   Milwaukee           14-5
31  Green Bay            11-8
32   HL Tourney           8-5

[chef]

Tevonn did not play because he couldn't play because of the injury.