Question about who is responsible for recording stats

a3uge · January 19, 2016, 08:51:01 AM

Who is responsible for recording individual player stats? Does this person work for the home university, or are they independent? Does anyone go back and review some of the statistics like they do in the NBA? I googled information about this, but couldn't find anything. I was hoping someone here would have some knowledge on this topic.

The reason why I ask is because it appeared Vashil keeps getting shorted out of blocks on the statsheet. Against Detroit, I counted 6-8 blocks, but only 3 blocks were registered on the statsheet. I realize "blocks" can be somewhat subjective, as it's possible that the ball may not have physically touched the defender's arm, but in that game, I saw Vashil touch at least 6 shots that weren't called fouls. There were another 2 that I just couldn't tell for sure. Jubril had 2 really obvious blocks, and I only saw 1 in the stats. Against YSU, I counted Vashil having 4 blocks, but again, he only was rewarded for 3 blocks. Perhaps this is going on all over the place in D1 basketball, but it seems like blocks are being grossly undercounted.

Maybe we can get whoever compiles stats for Valpo home games to over-count a few blocks?

ValpoHoops · January 19, 2016, 08:56:43 AM

Stats are kept by the home team's sports information staff. They track the game live and enter them into a computer (you don't want to know some of the keystrokes they end up with) while the game is going and the program produces the box score.

There have been many instances of schools stuffing their own players stat sheets (including a few that we played against, at least on the women's side).

Keeping basketball stats is not easy, especially when you get plays around the rim with multiple missed shots and rebounds. Blocks are very subjective...some SID's will count one if a player touches a shot and it misses, others only count one if the defender keeps the ball away from the rim altogether.

talksalot · January 19, 2016, 09:29:30 AM

There is an "official book" but that only keeps track of Line-Ups, Fouls and Baskets (FTs, 2-pointers and 3-pointers). Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Blocks are all kept on the 'puter. (and as Hoops just said; that program keystrokes will keep you up at night ... I'm amazed !)

Your Valpo scoring table works well together and we will very quickly discuss any discrepancies (if one of us is shielded on a shot, someone will have seen it). Aaron prints out interim box scores during the media-timeouts so any issues can be reviewed.

historyman · January 19, 2016, 09:44:16 AM

Quote from: talksalot on January 19, 2016, 09:29:30 AMYour Valpo scoring table works well together and we will very quickly discuss any discrepancies (if one of us is shielded on a shot, someone will have seen it). Aaron prints out interim box scores during the media-timeouts so any issues can be reviewed.

You mean that you have double blocks when you get "blocked out" from seeing one of Vashil's blocks?

a3uge · January 19, 2016, 09:54:27 AM

Quote from: talksalot on January 19, 2016, 09:29:30 AM
There is an "official book" but that only keeps track of Line-Ups, Fouls and Baskets (FTs, 2-pointers and 3-pointers). Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Blocks are all kept on the 'puter. (and as Hoops just said; that program keystrokes will keep you up at night ... I'm amazed !)

Your Valpo scoring table works well together and we will very quickly discuss any discrepancies (if one of us is shielded on a shot, someone will have seen it). Aaron prints out interim box scores during the media-timeouts so any issues can be reviewed.

Interesting! I never really have seen a discrepancy at Valpo, so I assumed it was a home-supplied thing. Since the Detroit game I've been counting Vashil's blocks. The numbers don't do his defense justice - and they're already amazing!

talksalot · January 19, 2016, 10:05:26 AM

The discrepancies I've seen are things like was a foul called on #4 or #44 ... (those hand signals are not consistent used by the officials, and we will talk to them during a time out); earlier this year, there was a foul called on #23... we could not tell which team! had to wait to see who was given the ball before writing it down.

We had a discrepancy earlier this year on a 2-point shot vs a 3-point shot where two officials each signaled differently, and it depended on which official you were looking at. That one, the officials reviewed the play during a time out and made a ruling.

I really wish they would allow for a replay to change some of those stats after the fact...but somethings you can't change... like CBS sports website thinking that Northern Kentucky is not in our conference... and that Austin Peay still plays in the Pioneer Football league...

valpotx · January 19, 2016, 10:54:20 AM

Oakland is notorious for adding assists on plays that wouldn't normally be counted as an assist. Even though Felder probably does have a lot of assists, I have to believe that several are due to this type of scenario. If you throw it in the post, and that post takes 5 seconds before shooting/making a shot, some schools will count that as an assist, while others will not.

humbleopinion · January 19, 2016, 11:38:44 AM

It always seems that I see more blocks than are recorded. How is a "blocked shot" defined?

agibson · January 19, 2016, 11:42:10 AM

Quote from: valpotx on January 19, 2016, 10:54:20 AMOakland is notorious for adding assists on plays that wouldn't normally be counted as an assist.

There was a nice article this season, maybe in the New York Times, about the variation in recording some of the subjective statistics. And about one scoring crew, in particular, that's _way_ more generous with assists than the average crew.

I'll see if I can come back and link it, or perhaps someone else can turn it up easily.

sliman · January 19, 2016, 11:56:25 AM

Statistical information is more consistent and accurate than it once was, but there is always room for interpretation. The NCAA producing a statisticians manual which defines most terms, the computerized preparation of a box score while the game is in progress, the mandate that the home team statistics are official are among the things that have contributed to this, but I suspect that the biggest discrepancies are on assists where there is the need for the statistician to decide whether the pass led directly to the basket or if the scorer and to make more than usual effort to score. I suspect a critical review of game film would change the assist scoring in nearly every game. Hopefully the human decisions, if in error, are balanced out over the course of a season.

Valpo89 · January 19, 2016, 05:19:05 PM

I would imagine that the experience of the person doing the statistics on the computer needs to also be taken into account. If it's someone new, I'm sure there is a huge learning curve. Aaron has been doing the VU games for several years now, and he's solid.
Funny story about recording assists. Years ago, the Valparaiso High School girls statistician would credit a player with an assist if the person who received the ball was fouled and made a free throw. Didn't matter if it was 1 of 2 free throws, as long as the recipient of the pass made a free throw, the person who passed the ball received an assist.
I remember telling them that was wrong. I understand why they might do it for personally grading a player, but it should not be an assist.

agibson · January 19, 2016, 05:30:59 PM

Quote from: agibson on January 19, 2016, 11:42:10 AMThere was a nice article this season, maybe in the New York Times, about the variation in recording some of the subjective statistics. And about one scoring crew, in particular, that's _way_ more generous with assists than the average crew.

I'll see if I can come back and link it, or perhaps someone else can turn it up easily.

Probably this is the piece I was thinking of
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/its-easier-to-get-assists-in-huntsville-texas-than-anywhere-else/
a year and a half old, but interesting.

If you google around there are another on the general theme, whether in the NBA or in college.

drewsaders11 · January 19, 2016, 06:05:13 PM

Kyle whelliston of mismajority.com wrote a chapter in his book on recording stats in game. He either did his for a game or sat with someone who did it and said the keystrokes, some type of shorthand, had a difficult learning curve. One can imagine that in quick paced games this would be pretty difficult, but one would hope Valpo would have someone doing this who knew what hey we're doing, which I'm sure is the case besides blocks...

talksalot · January 19, 2016, 10:38:31 PM

ok... Here's your homework.

I'm attaching the "Cheat Sheet" instructions.

Take out your laptop and watch the Fresno State game on now ...

and type in the game as you watch it.

Don't miss any substitutions, it's embarrassing to have someone score who's not in the game.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/statc/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/2013-14/misc_non_event/BB-RefCard.pdf

and then tell Aaron Leavitt you are impressed....