Horizon League Tournament 2016 - First Round Games

[wh]

This will be the format next year.   You can take that to the bank!  They are emulating the MVC every step of the way. 
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/tournaments/conference/MVC/mvc-tournament-bracket

When do we get 4 private schools, 4 schools in the top 20 academics according to US News, and regularly getting more than 1 NCAA bid?

Only when everyone stops waiting for some "white horse" program from another conference to ride in and make us a multi-bid league will we become a multi-bid league.  We have met the enemy, and he is us. 

[NativeCheesehead]

You can't make the top seed play three games in three days on a neutral court when you're a one bid league. Yes I realize that's how the ole Mid-Con did it and I hated it then too. Of course, being that's how the old Mid-Con did it should tell you everything you need to know.

Wichita State lost in that format, and though their seeding will be hurt, they're in. It actually works out well for the MVC. Horizon not like that yet, if ever.

[valpo64]

Has anyone seen attendance figures for any of the sessions?  Would love to see how successful the new "Motor City Madness" approach  is doing.  In looking at the sparse crowds at the other conference meets it scares me to think of what is going on at "The Joe".

[a3uge]

Has anyone seen attendance figures for any of the sessions?  Would love to see how successful the new "Motor City Madness" approach  is doing.  In looking at the sparse crowds at the other conference meets it scares me to think of what is going on at "The Joe".

Attendance is a red herring. This format will be a success if A) Valpo gets an at-large and two Horizon League teams get in (not likely) or B) Valpo makes the tournament as an at-large.

If the Horizon sends a 15 seed, this format should be regarded as a complete failure in year 1.

[bballraider]

I don't think the double bye is the problem or all that he was complaining about. The back to back to back seems to be the main issue. But as far as changing the format for this tournament once again, I repeat myself from an earlier thread: Get. Out. Of. This. Conference. (Yes, I realize it's easier said, and with the retention/new contract of a women's basketball coach who is 32-90 heading into the tourney, I'm beginning to think we should worry more about our local leadership than that in the conference office, but I promised myself I would save that rant for after the season.)

As a Wright State Fan, and having heard Donlon speak before about the tourney. He never had a problem with the double bye or even the home court going to the league champion. He liked the regular season being worth something. So my only guess is the back to back to back against a rested team being the problem. If there was a break in there, he would most likely be fine. He has never been happy with the league's scheduling in the regular season either, but that's another story.

So his first rant was to the media and their voting with none of his players being recognized. He was sticking up for his players, which any good coach would do. I think the tournament scheduling rant was just a carry over on that, once his emotions started going.

As far as HL awards, (he was in his own way, claiming do not look entirely at stats, but look how his players matched up each night against their opponent. Wright State is not a team that is going to put up gaudy stats, very similar to Valpo. Both Valpo and Wright State are defensive minded teams, that play good team defense, (Valpo just happens to have a shot blocker to supplement that team defense). They do not need to go toe to toe and try to out score the other team every night to win a game. So the offensive numbers aren't as high. I think he felt the media looked too much at stats. Donlon said winning is a big stat for him, and the most important thing to coaches, so he had 2 Valpo players on his first team along with Felder and Tiby. I'm not sure who the other player on his first team is but I would assume Fouse since he said his 1st team ballot consisted players of the top other 4 teams, since you can't vote for your own players.

[Valpower]

As a Wright State Fan, and having heard Donlon speak before about the tourney. He never had a problem with the double bye or even the home court going to the league champion. He liked the regular season being worth something. So my only guess is the back to back to back against a rested team being the problem. If there was a break in there, he would most likely be fine. He has never been happy with the league's scheduling in the regular season either, but that's another story.

So his first rant was to the media and their voting with none of his players being recognized. He was sticking up for his players, which any good coach would do. I think the tournament scheduling rant was just a carry over on that, once his emotions started going.

As far as HL awards, (he was in his own way, claiming do not look entirely at stats, but look how his players matched up each night against their opponent. Wright State is not a team that is going to put up gaudy stats, very similar to Valpo. Both Valpo and Wright State are defensive minded teams, that play good team defense, (Valpo just happens to have a shot blocker to supplement that team defense). They do not need to go toe to toe and try to out score the other team every night to win a game. So the offensive numbers aren't as high. I think he felt the media looked too much at stats. Donlon said winning is a big stat for him, and the most important thing to coaches, so he had 2 Valpo players on his first team along with Felder and Tiby. I'm not sure who the other player on his first team is but I would assume Fouse since he said his 1st team ballot consisted players of the top other 4 teams, since you can't vote for your own players.

Let's face it, the second rant is against the media, too.  The back-to-back scheduling is driven by ESPN and not necessarily what's good for the players, teams, conferences, or fans.

[Kyle321n]

Let's face it, the second rant is against the media, too.  The back-to-back scheduling is driven by ESPN and not necessarily what's good for the players, teams, conferences, or fans.

Really the only thing driven by ESPN is the Tuesday championship game. It might have been tight with the end of the season, but you could have had games on Wednesday, Friday, Sunday and Tuesday. You also didn't have to agree to all 4 days of games at the Joe. You could have very well gotten away with first round games on campus sites, which were regularly well attended, and second round, semis and the final game at the Joe. Heck you could have even done Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday. There's no reason for them to have 4 games in 4 days. It's stupid and I really hope we don't see some injuries from the fatigue of a 3rd game in as many games to Green Bay or Wright State.

[Valpower]

Let's face it, the second rant is against the media, too.  The back-to-back scheduling is driven by ESPN and not necessarily what's good for the players, teams, conferences, or fans.

Really the only thing driven by ESPN is the Tuesday championship game. It might have been tight with the end of the season, but you could have had games on Wednesday, Friday, Sunday and Tuesday. You also didn't have to agree to all 4 days of games at the Joe. You could have very well gotten away with first round games on campus sites, which were regularly well attended, and second round, semis and the final game at the Joe. Heck you could have even done Thursday, Saturday, Sunday, Tuesday. There's no reason for them to have 4 games in 4 days. It's stupid and I really hope we don't see some injuries from the fatigue of a 3rd game in as many games to Green Bay or Wright State.

I'll admit to not being privy to ANY of the inner workings of this deal, but it seems logical that the production costs of an event with minimal down time at a single location are significantly less than one with multiple locations.

[valpo84]

By the way, many teams seek out "preseason" tourneys to play 3 games in 3 days as a way to see how your team responds.  The Ivy League plays back to back nights as part of the conference season to avoid days out of the classroom.   Most of the major conferences have 4 straight days of games.  There are issues with this Tourney and I have been among those ranting about it since they passed it months ago.  But, it is what it is now that we're in March, everyone knew the rules at the start of conference season. It's as simple as win or go home this time of year. UConn a few years ago had to win 5 in 5 days, which propelled them to a #3 seed and a national title. 

[FWalum]

As far as HL awards, (he was in his own way, claiming do not look entirely at stats, but look how his players matched up each night against their opponent. Wright State is not a team that is going to put up gaudy stats, very similar to Valpo. Both Valpo and Wright State are defensive minded teams, that play good team defense, (Valpo just happens to have a shot blocker to supplement that team defense). They do not need to go toe to toe and try to out score the other team every night to win a game. So the offensive numbers aren't as high. I think he felt the media looked too much at stats. Donlon said winning is a big stat for him, and the most important thing to coaches, so he had 2 Valpo players on his first team along with Felder and Tiby. I'm not sure who the other player on his first team is but I would assume Fouse since he said his 1st team ballot consisted players of the top other 4 teams, since you can't vote for your own players.

I also think that some of the frustration comes from the media voting Paris Bass to the first team.  I agree with Kampe, how can you be first team all-conference when you are suspended and benched several times during the season.  How are you first team when your actions have proven to be selfish and detrimental to your own team.  Ridiculous that the media rewarded him with first team accolades.

[StlVUFan]

I agree with Kampe, how can you be first team all-conference when you are suspended and benched several times during the season.

I think that was Neal Ruhl who said that on the show.  Maybe Kampe agreed with him, I don't remember.  But there play-by-play guy made a point of it on the show.

[historyman]

Do you think Kampe now wishes he hadn't wished to be like Valpo as much as he did? His team seemed to be too much like Valpo last night.

[classof2014]

There is no question Valpo needs to get out of the HL and this new tournament form is one of the worst ideas the HL has had. Chances of Valpo getting an at-large is slim, is there a chance? Yes but a very slim one. The HL is going to get a 15 seed because of the format instead of the 10-13 that Valpo would have most likely received and a decent chance at making a run.

I can't stand when the announces compliment the HL and say it's stronger than ever. Um.... No it's not. Valpo is your prized possession after that it's a bunch of mediocre to bad mid-major teams. There's no question Valpo regressed over the course of the conference season. Playing significantly inferior opponents night-in-night-out only hurts your team not help them.

Valpo needs to join the MVC, I've been saying it for years. There's no question this team would've been among the top MVC teams this season. Perhaps having a bad game at an inopportune time like last night. We wouldn't be talking about the NIT but still the NCAAs and perhaps instead of a 12 or 13 seed they receive a 7, 8, or 9 seed.

Is there a possibility Valpo gets an at-large? Yes. Perhaps Bryce has to sell his soul to the devil for that to occur. As a fan I still hold out hope for that at-large. Realty though says otherwise, they'll be relegated to the tournament where dreams go to die the NIT. Will I watch the NITs? No question. Will I want them to win the tournament? Of course. Will I still be disappointed in the season's outcome? You betcha.

[Vinny]

Said it before and I'll say it again - the team has done plenty to raise its profile to the level of the Missouri Valley. Bigger picture, though, the University hasn't done anything to improve the facility situation. The decision makers at the MVC office could not care less about a weight room for a football team that will go its grave in the PFL. That's the only facility enhancement that has taken place since the Missouri Valley last looked into expansion.

This basketball team deserves to be in a conference like the Missouri Valley. Unfortunately the support to push them over the edge just isn't there.

[covufan]

Said it before and I'll say it again - the team has done plenty to raise its profile to the level of the Missouri Valley. Bigger picture, though, the University hasn't done anything to improve the facility situation. The decision makers at the MVC office could not care less about a weight room for a football team that will go its grave in the PFL. That's the only facility enhancement that has taken place since the Missouri Valley last looked into expansion.

This basketball team deserves to be in a conference like the Missouri Valley. Unfortunately the support to push them over the edge just isn't there.

There also needs to be an opening/offer to join.  The basketball conference world has stabilized the last few years, with little to no chance for Valpo to change conferences.  The only options (non-football conferences) are Big East (not until we have better facilities and more years in the top 35), A-10, and MVC. 

The HL is not the reason we are not going to the NCAA tournament this year.  We had a chance to win the HL tournament, but lost in our first game, after given a two round bye.  In the regular season we had four losses - @ Ball State, @ Belmont, @ Wright State, and Wright State at the ARC.  Win the home game and one other, and we should be an at-large team.  Blaming the HL, HL tournament, or anything else is just plain silly.  We need to win games and control our own destiny.

[crusaderjoe]

Not that I am advocating that the HL is a terrible conference and that we should leave immediately but since we're now on the subject, IMO, it's too bad that Valpo didn't have a greater sense of urgency with basketball facility upgrades in 2011 when Villanova, a private FCS school, attempted to court the ACC for membership. That alone should have sounded alarm bells.  It would have been nice to at least have been put in the best position possible to be attractive to other conferences when the windows for movement were much, much wider.

[HC]

The MVC did not pass Valpo over due to the school's facilities. That is a fact.

[sliman]

The MVC did not pass Valpo over due to the school's facilities. That is a fact.

I agree.  Biggest reason:  a school that is IN Chicago vs. one NEAR it.  If Wichita State ever decides to leave the Valley, then we should be considered as a replacement or, if they would give an invitation to St. Louis they could include us as well to make a 12-team conference.

I also agree with covufan: the conference is not the reason we're probably not going to the NCAA tournament; the bottom half of the conference may have hurt our RPI but it was two regular season losses and a tournament loss in the conference that hurt the most.  Granted, you can lose league games in power conferences and still make it due to a higher RPI (e.g. The Big East after Villanova and Xavier), but our geographic footprint as much as size and facilities will keep us out of that picture. 

[crusaderjoe]

The MVC did not pass Valpo over due to the school's facilities. That is a fact.

OK, I'll take your word for it and I'm not trying to be argumentative, although I don't see how the ARC can be seen as an asset in this analysis. 

Putting yourself in position to be invited to another conference and putting yourself in the best position possible to be attractive to other conferences within a realignment context can either be mutually inclusive concepts or mutually exclusive concepts, depending upon the circumstances. 

Let's say realignment spurs up again next year and MVC team #12 involves a facilities comparison.  Now what? Have we put ourselves in the best position possible for consideration this time around? I'm not saying that we have to throw $50M to a new facility by the way--but are we in as best a position that we feasibly can be?

[ValpoHoops]

Let's say realignment spurs up again next year and MVC team #12 involves a facilities comparison.  Now what? Have we put ourselves in the best position possible for consideration this time around? I'm not saying that we have to throw $50M to a new facility by the way--but are we in as best a position that we feasibly can be?

As I see it, this is the issue. Do we want to spend to upgrade, knowing that we will have to spend more to upgrade later, or do we want to do it at once. It's not an easy answer, and the funding isn't easy either.

The product on the field/court is what will ultimately decide, and the market, facilities and other areas will be ancillary. And that's not just in men's basketball. We need to continue to raise the level of all sports until we put ourselves in a position where conference want us.

Right now, we aren't there. But we can keep pushing to be our best.


Aside, I actually think our best look right now would be if the ACC wanted to add a 16th basketball/Olympic sports member, while keeping football at 14 (Notre Dame makes it 15 in everything else) and we jumped into the void left by Dayton or someone else.

But, as said above, we aren't ready yet.

[a3uge]

Beating a dead horse here, but I'm still bitter about how this whole season played out. This is my last rant about the issue.

Maybe I'm getting my history wrong, but if I am, I'm sure Jimmy will chime in; Back in 2002, the Horizon, of course, had a disaster tournament between UIC and Loyola in Cleveland that sent a 6 seed to the NCAA tournament. The Horizon didn't immediately switch locations that year - Milwaukee had been slotted to host the tournament, and there was no way the league would shun Milwaukee with up-and-coming Bruce Pearl and the senior year of Clay Tucker. Butler had actually won the regular season, but Milwaukee, playing the championship game at home, was able to knock off Butler, and get into the tournament for the first time. Butler did get an at-large and made a Sweet 16 run. THEN the league switched locations, eyeing the opportunity to have Butler or UWM advance as a their representative every year. This switch benefitted Milwaukee and Bruce Pearl, who showed an ability to recruit (lol, wonder how?). UW-Milwaukee dominated until Bruce skipped town and Butler began winning regularly. The Horizon seemed content with the format, despite making it harder for Butler to lose and enter the tournament as an at-large.

Then Valpo started dominating the regular season, and was about to return most of their minutes after winning the regular season and the tournament. Valpo was expected to be on the at-large bubble, and a couple writers had them in their preseason top-25. So what does the Horizon do? They add NKU a year before they're eligible - an RPI killer when they knew Valpo would need SOS help from the conference. Then they switched the conference tournament to a neutral site, increasing the odds that Valpo would get knocked out in the tournament.

Neutral court tournaments. I get it. The Butler money was about to run out, and the league needed a guaranteed revenue stream. I understand why the old model started being unsustainable, annoying for media, etc. But when Valpo needed help the most, the league turned their back on their most reliable team. Valpo wasn't exactly filling Butler's or Bruce Pearl's shoes, but it was the closest thing the League had to a new powerhouse. They could have simply waited a year, announce a new site, let it sink in, and give their beat team one last chance in the existing format.

But they didn't, and now we're yelling "I told you so." I really hope they're happy. It's hilarious watching the league media tweeting about attendance figures, trying to convince themselves that what just happened wasn't a nightmare scenario.

Yeah, Valpo still had every opportunity to take care of business and make it to the tournament... But it's just really unsettling that the league sold us out like that.

I blame LPA.

[VULB#62]

Let's say realignment spurs up again next year and MVC team #12 involves a facilities comparison.  Now what? Have we put ourselves in the best position possible for consideration this time around? I'm not saying that we have to throw $50M to a new facility by the way--but are we in as best a position that we feasibly can be?

As I see it, this is the issue. Do we want to spend to upgrade, knowing that we will have to spend more to upgrade later, or do we want to do it at once. It's not an easy answer, and the funding isn't easy either.

The product on the field/court is what will ultimately decide, and the market, facilities and other areas will be ancillary. And that's not just in men's basketball. We need to continue to raise the level of all sports until we put ourselves in a position where conference want us.

Right now, we aren't there. But we can keep pushing to be our best.


Aside, I actually think our best look right now would be if the ACC wanted to add a 16th basketball/Olympic sports member, while keeping football at 14 (Notre Dame makes it 15 in everything else) and we jumped into the void left by Dayton or someone else.

But, as said above, we aren't ready yet.

Have we?    {Note: the only private schools in the HL are #8 and #10}

HL McCafferty Trophy standing 2015-2016 to date

                   Men's Total   Women's Total   McCafferty Total   Place
Cleveland State         6             7                     13                5
Detroit                       1             1                      2              10
Green Bay                 0              3                       3                9
Milwaukee                 3             12                      15                3
NKU                       2.5               4                     6.5                6
Oakland                  21              26                      47                1 
UIC                         10               6                      16                2
Valparaiso           0          4                   4            8
Wright State            5.5              9                 14.5                4
Youngstown State        5                0                     5                 7

The schools we bitch about (UIC and YSU) overall, are above us in the McCafferty race and YSU will do very well in T&F.  Granted they can't compete in MBB, but we look pretty weak Athletic Program-wise in everything else. How does that change?  Simple. We need to "overcompensate."  Huh?  Yep.  We are one of only two PRIVATE institutions in this league with undergrad admission standards superior to the other 8 (we had a discussion about this before and some posters seemed to think we could compete for recruits regardless.  I say no way.)   So?  Well there are athletes (remember this post is about the across the board program) we want, but have to walk away from, regardless of how good they are and how great they are as persons.   While a WSU or a NKU (only for an example and without knowing state commuter schools admissions standards) can accept an athlete who is less academically qualified but a hell of an athlete. To compensate for that handicap, Valpo needs to significantly increase it's athletic budget to support coaches, recruiting and D-I scholarships.

It's another reason why we need to find a league that has similar values and standards.  We are the exception rather than the rule in the HL, and we are paying the price. Butler knew what they were doing.  They went from HL to A-10 to Big East.  Check the progressive composition of those leagues.  Check out the WCC -- all private.  We need to try to do the same -- or at least find a conference where there is more of a balance between private and public.

But........... any of this requires a major turnaround of the administration and B of D and that ain't gonna happen in our lifetime.  Failure to act in this manner, IMO, relegates us to perpetual wannabes.

As an aside, I have to congratulate both Oakland and NKU  As the two most recent additions, to be competing across the board as the #1 and the #6 schools is commendable.

[oklahomamick]

The regionally ranked private school, the ghetto jesuit school, and 8 state commuter schools.

[bbtds]

I blame LPA.

I'll agree that it was LPA all along. If he had only converted to Lutheran................there would have been no issues................curse of the pope...........ND will win it all and crush us all.

[bbtds]

tell him that my coaches don't whine about the process in front of cameras and microphones.  They out work, out coach and out recruit the competition and earn their way to the top. And they represent Wright State University with class and dignity along the way.  Discussion over. 

I picture Tom Hanks as Forrest Gump saying "Coach Donlon, life is like a box of chocolates........."

.....and I think Donlon got a really bad chocolate this past week.