First Time Poster- time to leave the Horizon

[oklahomamick]

Right on VU72.  I've been a big believer that we should seek membership in the MVC.  It took us a 3-4 years before we were competitive but as of now we are the leaders of the HL in MBB (the sport that gives us most name recognition).  Now imagine if we did the same higher up on the latter in the MVC.  That's the positive and the negative is that MVC is a little more travel than the HL.  We wouldn't want what has happened to Creighton in the BE.  They had a little run in the MVC similar to us in the HL except they won NCAAT games.  But i'm only looking at conference performance.  They graduated several studs and have not been competitive in the their new league.  This can very easily happen to us, graduate Vashil and Carter then Alec.  So Creighton finds themselves traveling all over the place in all their sports just because they wanted a better league, and they are not competitive in that league

[oklahomamick]

comparing productivity within each respected conference.  They controlled their conference MVC just as Valpo has controlled their conference HL. Difference is the occ and NCAAT but I was only talking about conference performance.

Creighton was 9-9 this year
Creighton was 4-14 last year 
Creighton was 14-4 first year of the BE

So they are .500.

[usc4valpo]

run - let's be serious. If Valpo gets an opportunity to join the MVC it is a no brainer that we should join. It is a significantly better league than the Horizon, which I think is on the downward trend. Regarding travels finances, I think that is something Valpo can accommodate.

[Ta town]

Some of you keep jumping on the Wichita St. bandwagon, but I don't see WSU being anything worth talking about in the next couple of years. With Baker, Van Vleet, and the FINAL FOUR class having finished their careers, what do the Shockers have that screams them leaving the MVC? I just don't see anyone stepping in to make WSU have a better next four years than the FINAL FOUR class had.

Ok I'm a shocker fan lurking cause Vandy fans are annoying and I hope they don't get Drew.

Regarding WSU.  This was their 5th straight NCAA, they were a 5 seed the year before the final four team and won the NIT the year before that. Won 4 out of last 5 MVC season titles.  Only year it took away leagues auto bid they were a 1 seed so pretty sure they didn't need auto any of 5 years.  They have won 25 or more games 7 straight seasons.  Marshall makes 3.2 mil and it bumps to 3.5 mil a year in 2018. Basketball budget is north of 6 mil now, have  I don't know how many straight years of selling out Koch arena (10,500).  Pretty dang good team lined up next year as well, 4star/ MVC freshman of the year mcduffle.  4 star SG who looked better than Mcduffie but got hurt and redshirted last year Shamet.  Redshirt Texas a&am transfer Peyton Allen, A juco top 10 recruit PF who averaged 18/10, and plenty of juniors to be who all played a ton of minutes and contributed.  Point being is Ron baker Fred van vleet was special but WSU was winning before them and Marshall has this thing rolling. WSU had a final 4, Elite 8, and sweet 16 all in different decades before Marshall was around so it has proven it can succeed over the long haul.  The 90's really hurt WSU bad but the last 15 years have really been solid under Turguen and Marshall.

UNI pays Jacobson 1.2 mil I think and as long as he stays they will usuall be good as well.

Anyways that was long winded and I don't make a habit to post on other peoples forums.  I wouldn't mind Valpo, wish it was u guys instead of Loyola, 20/20 I guess.

[oklahomamick]

comparing productivity within each respected conference.  They controlled their conference MVC just as Valpo has controlled their conference HL. Difference is the occ and NCAAT but I was only talking about conference performance. Creighton was 9-9 this year Creighton was 4-14 last year Creighton was 14-4 first year of the BE So they are .500.

I'm not saying that they are doing as good as they would've had they still been in the MVC but I would argue that they are competitive

I understand and my point was that we move to the MVC and we are competitive but not winning league championships like we were in the HL.   Would we be okay with that?

[usc4valpo]

absolutely! competing in the MVC is more challenging that the Horizon, which I think has weak leadership and may be on the downslide. I think if Valpo competes well in the MVC, the goal the winning a championship has more significance than winning every year in the Horizon over weaker competition. Valpo fans with the understanding of sport and strong competition will understand that.


I don't understanding the reasoning why it would be better for Valpo to stay in the Horizon. I think the right attitude is to grow and get better, and the MVC provides an opportunity for that.

[elephtheria47]

Regarding conference changing, timing is everything. Butler and Creighton moved to the big East while losing valuable pieces (star players, coaches) while Xavier made it while they had a core of great young talent. Xavier moved and had immediate success while Butler and Creighton Both slightly struggled initially but seem to have it figured out now. Moving into the bigger leagues mean bigger financial commitment so thatd be priority #1 for valpo. Stability at coaching position would be nice as well, and #2, but that is difficult to do as a mid major. #3 ideally, you have great young talent so you give yourself 2 to 3 years to recruit better talent/build depth without losing much instead of being behind the 8 ball from the get go. Success breeds success. If you finish 3 or 4 in the MVC you can still get dancing and get NCAAT money, whereas we all know what we need to do staying in the HL.

[VULB#62]

comparing productivity within each respected conference.  They controlled their conference MVC just as Valpo has controlled their conference HL. Difference is the occ and NCAAT but I was only talking about conference performance. Creighton was 9-9 this year Creighton was 4-14 last year Creighton was 14-4 first year of the BE So they are .500.

I'm not saying that they are doing as good as they would've had they still been in the MVC but I would argue that they are competitive

I understand and my point was that we move to the MVC and we are competitive but not winning league championships like we were in the HL.   Would we be okay with that?

And it is a valid point. We bitch about being a big fish in a small pond and that the pond is restricting us, but we are an auto bid away from the NCAAT pretty much every year now. If the wished-for alignment of stars would occur and we were to receive and accept an invite to the MVC, we would have a lesser chance of getting a title (or an at-large), IMO, than if we stayed in th HL. Would we be content with being #3-#5 most of the time with an occasional run at the top in what for us would be breakthrough years?  We certainly can't match the WSU and NIU BB budgets and facilities and the revenue that comes with them.  We also might have an unequal playing field in admission standards to overcome (we have that in the HL, but the other two factors are not as big) in getting more of the next level of players.  Ta Town gave us some WSU perspective -- they are just reloading next year. Success breeds success. We've experienced that in the HL, but replicating that in the MVC will take a major and immediate upswing in effort, investment and commitment. I'm not sure the administration is willing to go that route and stay that course over time.

[historyman]

If you finish 3 or 4 in the MVC you can still get dancing and get NCAAT money, whereas we all know what we need to do staying in the HL.

Evansville was 2nd in MVC and didn't play in the post season anywhere.
Illinois State was 3rd in MVC and didn't play in the post season anywhere
Southern Illinois-Carbondale was 4th in MVC and didn't play in the post season anywhere

Northern Iowa was 5th in MVC at 23-13 won the Arch Madness in St Louis and upset Texas in the first round of the NCAA tournament. Some teams in the MVC have performed well (Wichita State and Northern Iowa) but just finishing 3rd or 4th in the MVC does not guarantee anything.

[VULB#62]

Precisely. Perhaps the HL, despite its issues and our concerns, still might be our best option.

[oklahomamick]

The HL would be a great option if it was more like the league that we entered as.  It seemed UWM, Detroit, WSU were all better programs at that time.  The tournament was being held on campuses.  Much much better league back then, even when Butler wasn't winning the league and producing NCAAT (last two years of their membership) it was a much much better league.

[Valpo89]

Face it - the current configuration is a modern version of the old, old Mid-Continent Conference circa early 1990s.
Valpo, UIC, Green Bay, Milwaukee, Wright State, Cleveland State and Youngstown - all good old Mid-Con members and even a few Association of Mid-Continent Universities originals.

Oakland joined the Mid-Con when it first joined Division I in the 1998-99 range.

Detroit - can't remember if the Titans were ever in the league but VU played them in the late 80s, early 90s.

Northern Kentucky - a new version of Western Illinois?

Heck, that's all we're missing is Western Illinois and it's not far off from the Mid-Con of the early 90s.

Let's just go back to the Mark of the Quad Cities for the conference tournament!

[VU2014]

I think the formula to getting into a better (multi-bid) conference is "simple".
-First and foremost we has to keep winning and pray we hold onto Bryce for another year or two (looking less likely).
-A big second is that we need MUCH better facilities. I love the ARC for all its character and its a really fun place to watch games but its a joke when conference exc's, other coaches, and recruits come to visit. We need a new building and leave the ARC as a intramural sports center for students.
-I know my third point is already in the process, but increasing the student body population. I forget what the University's student body population target # is for the future but the plan is to grow. That has more to do with the macro-college landscape to help reduce costs and tuition, for the long-term health of the university more then anything. But an increasing to the student body would help increase attendance to games which would be much more appealing to larger conferences.
-Another factor that the MVC, A-10 and Big East (never going to happen unless Valpo really grows) is the TV ratings. Valpo doesn't have the huge draw for the area in terms of TV ratings. It compete's with ND, IU, Purdue, etc. for fanbase and eyeballs. We'll never win that battle, but we can chip away at it if we somehow become a true Mid-Major powerhouse that is a perennial NCAA conference bid team and make a ton of deep runs in the Tourney like WSU, Dayton and Creighton has and our marketing department can create a brand of "Northwestern Indiana's College Basketball team". 

Just a couple of my thoughts. I know some of my suggestion maybe a little out there but a fan can dream.

[a3uge]

The HL would be a great option if it was more like the league that we entered as.  It seemed UWM, Detroit, WSU were all better programs at that time.  The tournament was being held on campuses.  Much much better league back then, even when Butler wasn't winning the league and producing NCAAT (last two years of their membership) it was a much much better league.

The league across the board had a recruiting boost from Butler's/the Horizon's tournament success. Recruiting across the board was better than the MAC, Summit, OVC, etc. The league was still good when Butler had their down year before moving to the A10 and the few years after. Once the NCAA tournament wins dried up (due to poor seeds, sending the "wrong" team, etc), recruiting dried up. The all-freshman team was a joke this year, which is really sad since younger players have had opportunities with the amount of bottom dwelling teams in the league. I thought last year's freshman class was also weak.

Getting fresh coaching talent is important to the success of the league. Bannen and McClain have actually recruited pretty well in their first year. I would imagine Nagy would be a better recruiter than Donlon (which is not saying much). The league can definitely turn around, but there's going to be some growing pains along the way.

[VU2014]

McClain has actually recruited extremely well. UIC will be a force in the HL with this years recruiting class. McClain has always been a lights out recruiter. I don't want to be rude but I don't think he's anything close to an elite X's & O's coach. If McClain lands Marcus Ottey (Canadian guard) then that team will probably be a top the Horizon in a year or two. Ottey actually has an offer from Valpo but he eliminated us already. I actually think he's going UIC because his teammate just signed with UIC and their in his top 3. Ottey has the makings of kahlil felder 2.0. 

[oklahomamick]

McClain is a good recruiter.  I wonder how he does it.....

[VU2014]

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[Kyle321n]

With Bryce leaving let's stay in the HL for a little bit longer. Don't need a new coach and a new league. That doesn't sound fun to me.

[oklahomamick]

agree, we now have other problems besides our conference affiliation. 

[valpo tundra]

Now with most of the coaching situation solved, this conference switch talk is amusing but not practical.  First of all, this discussion only points out mens basketball.  Yes, that is where the revenue and a lot of interest comes from but there are 16 other sports that Valpo has to consider in the Horizon League.  We are competitive in several, not competitve in several others, and aside from mens basketball, we are only the best in mens tennis this year.  In fact, top to bottom, Oakland dominates the league when all sports are considered-think McCafferty Trophy.  Valpo is perfectly situated geographically within the Horizon League. Sending our non revenue sports to the East Coast for almost every match is not going to happen.  We don't offer the same number of scholarships for the other sports as most of the other schools so that would have to change.  And how about academic standards?  I would much rather have our current model where all of our students can read their diplomas.  We compete very well in the game of scholar athletes but imagine being the smallest university already, then needing to bring on average students who may be better athletes.  Which brings us to size-President Heckler came in and rather quickly talked about doubling the size of VU from 4,000 to 8,000 and just as quickly reduced that goal to 6,000.  Now with the Law school enrollment plummeting, international students declining, student debt and default at unsustainable levels nationwide, we are happy to keep present levels and quality.  Don't forget a budget deficit recently of 3 plus million and staff cuts.  I know this doesn't fit in with the sexy talk of conference upgrades but I just wanted to bring in the reality of more than just mens basketball.  All that being said, I think a move to the Missouri Valley would be attractive and with that upgrade comes better recruits and better results. Thanks for listening.

[valpotx]

Valpo had a budget deficit of $3m recently?

[agibson]

Valpo had a budget deficit of $3m recently?

I believe the number only goes red once you account for depreciation of buildings. But, yes, the number was something like that. It's meant to be about zero for the upcoming year.

[crusaderjoe]

Somewhat hesitant to post this here because it's message board banter (but hey what are these boards for?), but an interesting comment was made by one of their posters on the NMSU board regarding HL "interest" in the Aggies:

http://www.scout.com/college/new-mexico-state/forums/2377-sports-trough/14678495-wac-still-looks-at-10-teams

Given how geographically compact the HL is, any "interest" seems odd to me.  I can see "interest" by the Summit for sure, but not the HL, at least as a stand alone school.

[valpotx]

I like the 'unknown schools' comment tied to the HL

[VULB#62]

Their moaning about their commissioner has been copied and pasted from our board. Couldn't they be a bit more original?