Union Street Hoops

[crusader05]

but, as we often argue, if a basketball team is successful it can bring in more students who will pay some form of tuition. If a basketball team of 13 scholarship players wins and increases enrollment are they not bringing in money? Have we not talked about the money Valpo is getting from Loyola and Drake players winning in the tournament?

That's all the system, a system is larger than one point at one time. We talk about AAU teams and how high schools poach students and how players have people in their ears telling them where to go and when. It's all the system and noone acts like that if there's not money involved.

[mj]

A "full" athletic scholarship covers the costs of tuition, fees, room and board, and books. At Valparaiso University that likely totals more than $60,000 per year, and about 250,000 for four years. Multiply that by 13 men's basketball scholarships: $3,250,000. (This does not include the added lifetime earning potential gained by attaining a degree at a reputable university.) That is why I roll my eyes if a VU basketball player objects that "the system makes other people money."

I don't think it's quite that simple. A regular student at VU pays tuition and receives an education in return.

But when you're talking about athletics, instead of paying tuition, a basketball player "pays" by playing. In return he gets an education. However, you have the added wrinkle that basketball also makes hundreds of millions of dollars for the NCAA. Valpo gets a small piece of that since they're part of the system. And Morgan realized he played a role in that system.

What's the cost to VU to provide an education?  Probably not that much. You've got a lot of fixed costs that are spread out among all the students. And it's not as though a basketball player is taking a spot of student who otherwise would be paying full tuition. So to say that a basketball player received $250K worth of education benefits is suspect.

Then of course you have the fact that many athletes can't get the full education experience because of their commitment to athletics (Note: Kiser was the exception not the rule)

I got the sense that Morgan looked at this and realized it's not a fair trade. When considering the amount of money that basketball generates, the education pales in comparison.

[valpopal]

A "full" athletic scholarship covers the costs of tuition, fees, room and board, and books. At Valparaiso University that likely totals more than $60,000 per year, and about 250,000 for four years. Multiply that by 13 men's basketball scholarships: $3,250,000. (This does not include the added lifetime earning potential gained by attaining a degree at a reputable university.) That is why I roll my eyes if a VU basketball player objects that "the system makes other people money."

I don't think it's quite that simple. A regular student at VU pays tuition and receives an education in return.

But when you're talking about athletics, instead of paying tuition, a basketball player "pays" by playing. In return he gets an education. However, you have the added wrinkle that basketball also makes hundreds of millions of dollars for the NCAA. Valpo gets a small piece of that since they're part of the system. And Morgan realized he played a role in that system.

What's the cost to VU to provide an education?  Probably not that much. You've got a lot of fixed costs that are spread out among all the students. And it's not as though a basketball player is taking a spot of student who otherwise would be paying full tuition. So to say that a basketball player received $250K worth of education benefits is suspect.

Then of course you have the fact that many athletes can't get the full education experience because of their commitment to athletics (Note: Kiser was the exception not the rule)

I got the sense that Morgan looked at this and realized it's not a fair trade. When considering the amount of money that basketball generates, the education pales in comparison.

Yes, a basketball player "pays by playing." I don't question that. I had a job and worked my way through all four years of college as well, as did my wife and millions of other students, though a lot less enjoyable employment than playing a sport. However, I do question the opinion that "to say that a basketball player received $250K worth of education benefits is suspect." It is verifiable. I also question the conclusion "that many athletes can't get the full education because of their commitment to athletics." The athletics department, faculty, and university administration provide support staff and make all sorts of accommodations or allowances to compensate for the "commitment to athletics." Additionally, many of the basketball players are on campus taking courses during summer sessions, so their academic workloads can be lessened during seasons of play. In fact, look at how many athletes are able to finish a degree in three years and begin graduate studies!

[elephtheria47]

Ah. America. Where people have the freedom to make whatever choices they want. Noone is forcing anyone to play sports in college.

[crusader05]

By that logic no one should ever have the right to criticize anything because they made a choice to be a part of it/enjoy it.

The ability to self-reflect, make decisions, and develop an opinion on ourselves and things we are a part of is pretty much a human condition and how things get better or how people grow.

He decided he didn't think the system was healthy for him or healthy in general and he choose to leave it earlier than he had too. That's a choice as well that he gets to make and he gets to talk about.

[wh]

A "full" athletic scholarship covers the costs of tuition, fees, room and board, and books. At Valparaiso University that likely totals more than $60,000 per year, and about 250,000 for four years. Multiply that by 13 men's basketball scholarships: $3,250,000. (This does not include the added lifetime earning potential gained by attaining a degree at a reputable university.) That is why I roll my eyes if a VU basketball player objects that "the system makes other people money."

I don't think it's quite that simple. A regular student at VU pays tuition and receives an education in return.

But when you're talking about athletics, instead of paying tuition, a basketball player "pays" by playing. In return he gets an education. However, you have the added wrinkle that basketball also makes hundreds of millions of dollars for the NCAA. Valpo gets a small piece of that since they're part of the system. And Morgan realized he played a role in that system.

What's the cost to VU to provide an education?  Probably not that much. You've got a lot of fixed costs that are spread out among all the students. And it's not as though a basketball player is taking a spot of student who otherwise would be paying full tuition. So to say that a basketball player received $250K worth of education benefits is suspect.

Then of course you have the fact that many athletes can't get the full education experience because of their commitment to athletics (Note: Kiser was the exception not the rule)

I got the sense that Morgan looked at this and realized it's not a fair trade. When considering the amount of money that basketball generates, the education pales in comparison.

Did you just blow past my earlier post?

"The premise that universities are making money on the backs of student athletes is a complete fabrication. Of the literally thousands of 2-year and 4-year universities with athletic programs at every level and division, only a handful turn a profit." Let me put it another way. With the exception of a few big time college athletic programs, the money athletic departments raise helps defray the financial burden of the programs they run, including player scholarships. Valparaiso University hasn't profited one dime "off the back of" Zion Morgan.

As to the value of his education, I don't care if he got a General Studies degree, it's valuable. Just last night, my son-in-law was telling me about his brother's struggle to get through college. He went to 3 universities over 6 years and finally "settled" for a General Studies degree becausee he didn't have enough of any one thing to declare a major. He started out as a sales clerk at a Sherwin-Williams retail store. He worked hard and got noticed. He was asked if he would be interested in their company management training program. He said I don't have a business degree, just a general studies degree from Trine University. They said the only qualification was that he have a bachelor's degree. It could be in anything. Cutting to the chase, he went through the program, was assigned as a store manager at another location, and 10 years later he is a district manager in industrial sales and makes $250,000.

[valpo64]

I wonder if Zion would speak differently/attitudes/etc. if he had been a star at his previous school and then at Valpo?  Perhaps not reaching his perceived or hoped for level of success with respect to college basketball had some effect on his outlook and comments.  ??

[mj]

I had a job and worked my way through all four years of college as well, as did my wife and millions of other students, though a lot less enjoyable employment than playing a sport.

Right, basketball is a job for athletes. That's one of the points Morgan was making.

However, I do question the opinion that "to say that a basketball player received $250K worth of education benefits is suspect." It is verifiable.

My point is that referencing the "sticker price" of VU to determine the value of the education is misleading. Would that mean that an athlete at a public school is "paid" less than a VU athlete?

[mj]

"The premise that universities are making money on the backs of student athletes is a complete fabrication. Of the literally thousands of 2-year and 4-year universities with athletic programs at every level and division, only a handful turn a profit." Let me put it another way. With the exception of a few big time college athletic programs, the money athletic departments raise helps defray the financial burden of the programs they run, including player scholarships. Valparaiso University hasn't profited one dime "off the back of" Zion Morgan.

How much are coaches getting paid? How much are NCAA administrators getting paid? Valpo is a part of a larger system, of which Morgan played a role. There are individuals who are living large as a result of college athletics.

[wh]

"The premise that universities are making money on the backs of student athletes is a complete fabrication. Of the literally thousands of 2-year and 4-year universities with athletic programs at every level and division, only a handful turn a profit." Let me put it another way. With the exception of a few big time college athletic programs, the money athletic departments raise helps defray the financial burden of the programs they run, including player scholarships. Valparaiso University hasn't profited one dime "off the back of" Zion Morgan.

How much are coaches getting paid? How much are NCAA administrators getting paid? Valpo is a part of a larger system, of which Morgan played a role. There are individuals who are living large as a result of college athletics.

How much money do professors make? Or college administrators? Are they making money on the backs of tuition-paying students?

And, no, there isn't a difference. Both examples are equally illogical (the least offensive term I could think of).

[valpotx]

It is complete horsesh!t to say that basketball players have more of a job at Valpo, versus other sports.  Team and individual practice time is very similar, and they have less games.  It comes down to what your individual priorities are.  If you thought that you would make it professionally in basketball, you potentially make the personal decision to not focus on your studies as much.  Baseball plays 50-60 games per year, and you are going to tell me that Basketball has more of a job in college?  Give me an f'ing break.

[FWalum]

Quote from: valpopal on Today at 11:42:39 AM
However, I do question the opinion that "to say that a basketball player received $250K worth of education benefits is suspect." It is verifiable.

My point is that referencing the "sticker price" of VU to determine the value of the education is misleading. Would that mean that an athlete at a public school is "paid" less than a VU athlete?

I guess we have been a little hasty with the numbers.  It appears that the average Valpo undergrad pays around $35,804 for cost of attendance because 78% of students get some sort of scholarship monies with the average grant being $25,772.  Valpo is a non-profit private school with fewer sources of income than a non-profit public university which derives fewer income dollars from tuition (and additional income from things like taxes) when compared to a Valpo. So if you equate an athletes "pay" to the actual cost per student the "pay" to a public school athlete would in most cases be higher because private schools, in general, have a lower cost per student. Apples to apples, short and sweet the "pay" should equate to the actual cost per student. So at a salary of $35,804 the Valpo Basketball player makes more than the average salary of a G-League player. Is that a fair deal? Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Quote from: mj on Today at 01:18:11 PM
Quote from: wh on Today at 12:36:24 PM
"The premise that universities are making money on the backs of student athletes is a complete fabrication. Of the literally thousands of 2-year and 4-year universities with athletic programs at every level and division, only a handful turn a profit." Let me put it another way. With the exception of a few big time college athletic programs, the money athletic departments raise helps defray the financial burden of the programs they run, including player scholarships. Valparaiso University hasn't profited one dime "off the back of" Zion Morgan.

How much are coaches getting paid? How much are NCAA administrators getting paid? Valpo is a part of a larger system, of which Morgan played a role. There are individuals who are living large as a result of college athletics.

How much money do professors make? Or college administrators? Are they making money on the backs of tuition-paying students?

And, no, there isn't a difference. Both examples are equally illogical (the least offensive term I could think of).

Why stop at professors and administrators, what about the facility management, book store workers, cooks and janitors? All of these people need to be paid otherwise there would be one less place for players to play, get an education and potentially achieve their dream. Should coaches and players make 10-50 times more than the POTUS, Supreme Court Justices or our greatest scientists? Should the highest paid employees in the state of Indiana be public university coaches making millions of dollars? I don't know the answers to these questions. I can tell you that when I was involved at an NAIA school 11 years ago the full time MBB coach made less than $50,000 per year. The vast majority of coaches and players are not coaching and playing because they are killing it in the "system". I don't think that there are many if any universities that are in the business of sports because it is making them money as a stand alone business.

[wh]

My oldest grandson is a top 5 HS thrower in his state in 2 events. He's 6-5/285 and is built like a tank. His whole life has revolved around training, lifting, practicing, camps, national events, and HS track. He has over $30,000 in scholarships in his freshman year at the private university he chose and assurances of more in his sophomore year. That said, he recently told mom and dad that he was burnt out and was done throwing at the end of the school year. So, now he will be attending the same expensive private university as a regular student, something mom and dad can't afford to pay for by themselves, so he will be working summer jobs instead of training, and will still have a load of debt to carry into his adult life.  The choice he made is available to every scholarship athlete in any sport at any time. And, if they don't like that option, don't go to college like millions of other young people. The bottom line is nobody's holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to play sports and get used and abused by "the system."

[VU2014]

Anxiously waiting on Paul's next USH episode to discuss the Beacons and Logos. Knowing Paul, he may be giving it a week or two to digest and get a scope public reaction. I kind of have a sense of that he thinks University Nicknames are overrated but I'm wondering what he thinks about those in-house logos...

I've made my opinions known on twitter. I can get on board with The Beacons. It fits Valparaiso. It might not be everyone's top choice but it at least makes sense to a degree.

As for as logos... I'm not onboard with the logos. I feel bad for kind of saying they aren't great because a Valpo employee probably worked hard but I'm not going to shy away for saying something is bad because it hurts someone's feelings. It is really important they get the logo(s) right!

Hire a graphic design firm, have a contest, have graphic designers submit logo proposals and give a cash prize to the winner that is actually poll tested with constituents of the University! It is sadly believable that the University leadership went on the cheap of something so important. Logos are an outwards representation of the University and President Padilla and his Team absolutely dropped the ball on the logos...

Please don't settle!!

https://twitter.com/nwioren/status/1425149414277099523?s=21
https://twitter.com/valpo_hoops/status/1426265109928755210?s=21
https://twitter.com/brydfly/status/1426578137811496961?s=21

[Pgmado]

Heading out of town for a couple days for one last unplugging before high school and college sports start in earnest. I'll be back with a pod next Friday.

[VUSERF]

Paul,

If possible can you amplify alternative logo ideas or discuss opportunities for other artists to showcase their ideas? Especially the artwork concept released by Bryan Flynn on Twitter?

I think that this would be a wonderful NWI Times piece and USH episode. Your discussion of these alternatives may help VU admin, alumni, and faculty/staff see what creativity exists amongst passionate Valpo supporters.

Thanks for all you do!

[valpotx]

Someone hire Bryan Flynn to do it right.  The name sucks, but that doesn't mean that the logo needs to match in the amount of suck...

[valpo64]

The more I see, the more the whole thing sucks!  I hope this isn't an indication of how this new Administration handles things.  If so, the School is in real trouble.  One half-ass approach is enough.  As stated in an earlier comment, do it right the first time.

[bb33]

I could have gotten behind the Beacon nickname but NOT with the current logo/theme/artwork. If they made it inspiring instead of elementary, I think the transition could go smoother.  Not smooth but at least give the Valpo community something to be proud of.   What I have seen so far has been lackluster.  I personally was rooting for the Dunehawks.  The mock logos I have seen were super cool.  I think we all could have embraced it.

[VUBBFan]

!00% agree with Paul's take on the Nickname. Beacons is a good name for the University. All students can buy into it, not just the Athletes. The Logo designs are lacking as well as a Mascot ( Hoping for a Koala  ). I am also a fan of Bryan's designs

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1428829457750577155

[valpotx]

Heading out of town for a couple days for one last unplugging before high school and college sports start in earnest. I'll be back with a pod next Friday.

As crappy as the Beacons name is, I do have to say that your choice of podcast distribution is even crappier.  Go SiriusXM/Pandora/Stitcher .

[vu72]

Good in-depth analysis.

[valpotx]

Listened on Stitcher, which was a wise choice by PO .  Although, you can't go wrong with SoundCloud, another way that I can be a company Homer

[VU2014]

Looking forward to this episode.

People are so irritated about these 2 exhibitions not just because of the performances but also because who the losses are to. It legitimately embarrassing. It doesn't matter if they are good D2s. It's turns Valpo into a punchline on social media.

the good vibes with fans and students going into the season are gone and need to be earned back. The Team will be better once healthy and with everyone but we can't lose to D2s, let alone 2 of them back to back.

https://twitter.com/nwioren/status/1456017277892050949?s=21

[VUGrad1314]

Well at least Lottich still hasn't lost to a non D1 in the regular season... So that's something... I don't know guys I got nothing here... It really begs the question when we'll win another game. Maybe Trinity Christian?