Union Street Hoops

[VUGrad1314]

So you include Butler to bolster the case of the HL but you did not include Creighton and Wichita State's myriad tournament wins for the MVC? Also UNI won a game back in 2015 Bradley's sweet 16 run counts in 2006 as well and let's not forget Loyola's final 4 our first year. I'm not sure what your argument was but I'm just saying tell the whole story.

[oklahomamick]

Simple.

The years I included Butler were years we were there and they were there. Why wouldn't I include them?  Why would I include Wichita st and  Creoghton?

I did leave out Loyola final four by mistake

[IrishDawg]

The MVC was and is a better league than the Horizon.  The Horizon had a better conference ranking than the MVC 4 times in the last 23 seasons on Kenpom.

[oklahomamick]

I guess I was only using NCAAT as a measure of success which isn't enough I know. 

With the drastic decline of the HL after Butler left I think many of us forgot how good it was when we were invited.  Take year 1 of the HL and compare to our last year in the HL.  It's kind of sad as a mid major conference fan. 

[VUGrad1314]

Oh yeah It was amazing when we were invited. I was as pumped when we were invited to the HL as I was when we were invited to the MVC. I saw it as a chance for us to recapture relive and even build on what we had in the early HL days and even extending that feeling of great high level competition and a chance at the postseason to all sports. It's a better league. A bad year in the MVC is about the same as a good year in the HL especially in the post Butler era. Once we get up to speed and competitive in all sports we will realize that difference and it will greatly benefit our program as a whole (it already has).

[vu72]

I will not include schools who are not currently in the MVC.

Why then would you include Butler in the Horizon stats?

[oklahomamick]

Because Butler was present when we started in the HL.  I'm talking about both mvc and hl as they were when we started play. 

We played in the same league as Butler.  We never played in the same league as Wichita St. or Creighton.

07 we entered the HL, two teams that made the tourney and the league also posted 2 wins in the tourney.
18 we entered the MVC, only one team made the tourney and the league had 4 tournament wins

08 second year in the HL, only one team made it and one tournament win
19 second year in the mvc, only one team made it and 0 wins

09 third year in the HL, two teams made it and one tournament win
20 third year in the mvc, TBA

10 fourth year in the HL, only one team made it and league produced 5 wins
21 fourth year in the mvc, TBA

11 5th year in the HL, only one team made it and league produced 5 wins

It appears when we joined the HL, we joined a conference that was a multi bid league by doing it twice in our first three years.  In Valpo's first 5 years in the HL it was a multi bid league twice and a national runner up twice. 

It appears when we joined the MVC, it was has only been a 1 bid league (looks that way for the future) and it produced a final four.  Only two years of data for the mvc.

[VUGrad1314]

It's almost foolish to actually make this comparison because of how much college basketball changed over the ten years we were in the HL. I'm not just talking about realignment either. Thanks in large part to the MVC and how they dunked all over the RPI system in the mid-late 2000s the bigger leagues have conspired to keep leagues like the MVC down so that they don't steal bids from the larger conferences. The HL has declined for different reasons than the MVC--the MVC is being starved out of deserving bids (See: Illinois State 2016-2017 with an RPI of like 33) The HL hasn't had a team like that since we left. Also comparing the relative ceilings of programs like Bradley SIU and UNI with most Horizon teams is not even an argument. Before you say "Well SIU and UNI peaked at the Sweet 16 just like Milwaukee," remember that SIU and UNI have been strong programs multiple years and in the case of SIU under multiple coaches.) And we might just be beginning to see what teams like Missouri State and Evansville can do now that Evansville cares about basketball again. Seriously, Missouri State is good and they are very well coached. I haven't given up on the multibid dream of the MVC just yet, I still think we can do it if everyone pulls their weight and we win the games we need to win. Even so, being in a conference that prepares you to succeed in the tournament. Furthermore comparing a once in a generation meteoric rise of a mid major program like Butler to the MVC in this climate isn't fair at all. It would be like saying St Mary's shouldn't go to the Mountain West or BYU shouldn't go to the AAC if they were invited because Gonzaga, which has already left for the Big East in this scenario, was a cash cow stacking credits for the WCC. Or saying Murray State shouldn't join the MVC if they were invited because Belmont luck-boxed into an at large bid. If Belmont can get a bid, the MVC has at least five programs that are capable of doing so when operating at their peak. This argument doesn't hold water because it's irrelevant to where the two leagues are now.

[oklahomamick]

I'm not comparing higher ceiling at the time or where the two conferences are now. 

Simply put, 2007 HL is not that far off from 2017 MVC. 

[VUGrad1314]

I accept that but the key difference is this:

2007 HL still had its Wichita State program (Butler) and sidekick programs (Cleveland State Milwaukee Wright State) to play the Creighton role. Of course in this example Wichita State eventually left and Creighton simply declined instead of leaving as the real Creighton did in the MVC.

2017 MVC had neither of those and was STILL a better league.

[EddieCabot]

Good interview with AD Mark. Nothing earth shaking but some good information. Touched on the direction of ARC improvements. Sounds like there is a plan but gave no particulars. The best part of the interview was the explanation of the schedule buyouts and what they are using the money for. They also talked more about scheduling games.

It was good to hear details about the challenges in scheduling directly from the AD.  Also interesting that the NET rating is making scheduling even more difficult for schools like Valpo.  If there's a positive take away, it's that Valpo's scheduling difficulty is being caused by outside forces ... not by anything being done (or not done) by the basketball staff.

[IrishDawg]

I accept that but the key difference is this:

2007 HL still had its Wichita State program (Butler) and sidekick programs (Cleveland State Milwaukee Wright State) to play the Creighton role. Of course in this example Wichita State eventually left and Creighton simply declined instead of leaving as the real Creighton did in the MVC.

2017 MVC had neither of those and was STILL a better league.

There was no Creighton level team (or combination of teams on Creighton's level) in the Horizon.  The MVC essentially had 2 Butlers, and the Horizon had 1.  The reason the MVC in the 2018 season was so strong was because the middle and bottom parts of the league that season were so solid, which is difficult to imagine occurring consistently. It's more likely that the bottom of the league will be as bad as last year, but the top team or two of the league will be at least slightly better going forward.

The argument that the Horizon was a better league (it wasn't) is moot anyway. In their current forms, the MVC is a much better league overall, and that's what really matters.

[oklahomamick]

2007 HL is not far from 2017 MVC
2017 MVC is light years from 2017 MVC

[VUBBFan]

Good Pod cast with Sackey.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1165000879570862082

[FWalum]

 Withdrawal symptoms are getting pretty bad! 4 weeks and counting. If nothing is deemed newsworthy maybe an episode where you talk to the March to the Arch podcast guys?

[EddieCabot]

Withdrawal symptoms are getting pretty bad! 4 weeks and counting. If nothing is deemed newsworthy maybe an episode where you talk to the March to the Arch podcast guys?

[tweet]1176989971389046787[/tweet]

[FieldGoodie05]

Withdrawal symptoms are getting pretty bad! 4 weeks and counting. If nothing is deemed newsworthy maybe an episode where you talk to the March to the Arch podcast guys?

[tweet]1176989971389046787[/tweet]

Keep up the good work Paul!  It's an amazing amount of coverage for our small University and we are fortunate to have quality coverage from guys like yourself.

[VUBBFan]

Hey Paul, when can we expect the annual over/under contest podcast. Getting a little excited here.

[4throwfan]

Paul, I posted the questions below regarding non-con scheduling on another thread (which probably wasn't the best place).  Hoping that you can address in one of the podcasts, or here.  Thanks,

pgmado,

I finally got to listen to the podcast with Coach Gore, and had a couple of questions, and hopefully you already know the answer without having to go back to the staff.

By the way, I really do enjoy the podcasts.

1.  Coach Gore mentioned a couple of times something about posting for games.  I assume that non-conference scheduling is a combination of MTE's, conference match-ups (e.g., ACC BG10 challenge), networking, and some sort of board posting.  My question is on the last item.  Is there some sort of community board that the coaches interact on?  If so, what does that look like?  Seems like this is a no-brainer that there would be such a thing.

2.  When two teams agree on a home-and-home, are both dates set when the contract is signed?  Seems like it would be more of a range.  Seems like they would use a standard form contract of some sort where the teams simply fill in the blanks for dates and buyout amount - is that right?

Thanks,

[Pgmado]

Hey Paul, when can we expect the annual over/under contest podcast. Getting a little excited here.

It will come after the exhibition game. Too many unknowns at the moment to effectively set lines.

[Pgmado]

Paul, I posted the questions below regarding non-con scheduling on another thread (which probably wasn't the best place).  Hoping that you can address in one of the podcasts, or here.  Thanks,

pgmado,

I finally got to listen to the podcast with Coach Gore, and had a couple of questions, and hopefully you already know the answer without having to go back to the staff.

By the way, I really do enjoy the podcasts.

1.  Coach Gore mentioned a couple of times something about posting for games.  I assume that non-conference scheduling is a combination of MTE's, conference match-ups (e.g., ACC BG10 challenge), networking, and some sort of board posting.  My question is on the last item.  Is there some sort of community board that the coaches interact on?  If so, what does that look like?  Seems like this is a no-brainer that there would be such a thing.

2.  When two teams agree on a home-and-home, are both dates set when the contract is signed?  Seems like it would be more of a range.  Seems like they would use a standard form contract of some sort where the teams simply fill in the blanks for dates and buyout amount - is that right?

Thanks,

I'd imagine there is some sort of data feed website the coaches have access to. I've never seen it, but I imagine there's an online community where coaches can reach out.

I believe you're correct about the dates being in a range.

[VUBBFan]

Got another good one to listen to.

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/1187514096125652992

[vu72]

Thinking back to last years main problem--we couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from the 3.  That was mostly without Ryan. So his comments about who else--besides Ryan--was the best shooter, involved two guys who weren't on the team last year (Siggie and Eron) and one who has worked very hard to improve his game (Javon)  If they are as good as advertised and Ryan stays healthy, we will be hard to stop.  Can't wait.

[M]

I tend to agree Valpo could be tough to stop offensively...I am very concerned that Valpo is going to have just as tough a time stopping their opponent on the other end.

[justducky]

I tend to agree Valpo could be tough to stop offensively...I am very concerned that Valpo is going to have just as tough a time stopping their opponent on the other end.

Sorolla and Lavender were decent defenders but all of the others will be replaced by players who could or should be net improvements. Yes- much depends on our freshmen and McMillan but I am optimistic about our floor defensive rotations and depth when all have learned their roles.