Motor City Madness ... What a joke

[StlVUFan]

If I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage

Simple answer go to Las Vegas. They already have the PAC-12, MWC, WCC and WAC. They could easily fit us in.

I'm reminded of the Big Sky, who has their conference tournament in Reno, NV, even though there isn't a singe Big Sky team in Nevada and the conference powers (Weber St, Montana) have 10 hour drives from campus just to get there. That said, it isn't well attended and I think it's in the best interest of the conference (any conference) to have as many interested fans at the tournament as possible.

Hence, you go where someone wants you.  Olympia wanted us, they ponied up (I guess), so that's where it is.

[a3uge]

I actually like the logic of rewarding top finishes with extra perks in conference tournament ... up to a point:

1. The 2 seed has always gotten screwed in the old format - no home games unless #1 loses in semis
2. There's just a bit of a small-sample size problem that ruins it all for me - 18 games is nowhere near enough to decide who the best team is, at least not enough to go around handing out a double-bye AND home court advantage.

My problem with the previous format is purely philosophical.  I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Valpo host 3 out of 4 years, you can count on that.  But I also hated the first round.  I am in that small minority that is not the least bit interested in sitting at home and watching these games on TV or my computer (and especially trying to watch 4 games at once on Tuesday night - go away with that crap).

If I had my druthers, I'd put the tournament where no team's fanbase would have a travel advantage, but it'll never happen, and I don't care enough about the "injustice" to get upset about it.  I thoroughly enjoyed the tournament last year, except for the double-bye which I also have always viewed as excessive.  Of course it was a bummer that we lost, but overall I thought it was a great tournament.

It should be noted that I don't care what it looked like on TV or how many fans were in attendance.  Those are other people's problems, not mine.  I go to watch 5-on-5, not the fans.

If we could definitively prove who the best team in the conference is, then I would be against the conference tournament and for just sending that team.  All of which is to say that I think this "rewarding" the best team idea is ridiculous.  We have conference tournaments precisely because we don't know who the best team is.  If we knew who it was, we wouldn't need the tournament.

The fact is, it's always going to be in a city with close ties to one or more HL schools.  And jealousy swings both ways (technically it's the haves who are "jealous"; the have nots are "envious") - if Oakland had been the standard bearer for 4 years and was looking at building a dynasty and suddenly the HL office decided to move to a neutral site somewhere in Chicago, the Oakland fan base would include plenty of whiners who sound just like we do -- and we'd be over there telling *them* to grow a pair.

I understand the frustration.  I felt a bit of it too when the shift was announced, even as I agreed with the move.  Fans who are used to winning get like this.  It happens everywhere.  Fans who are constantly chasing winning teams think those fans are the absolute worst in the world.

And it's all relative.

I heard about the insanity going on over here from an Oakland fan I interact with on twitter.  And I told him this is a common phenomenon in sports.  I get twitchy anytime I perceive that a fanbase is being singled out.  I live in St. Louis and root for the Cardinals, so I've had some experience with this.  As if no other fanbases have their fair share of racist, homophobic fans like Cardinals fans do (Please).

I like the new setup.  I like it as a basketball junkie - I think being at the game beats watching it on TV to the nth degree.  I like it from a competitive standpoint.

And I also think that the problems the HL face, while somewhat self-inflicted, are also problems shared by the lower 26 entirely and need to be solved at the NCAA level rather than by us using gimmicks as band-aids.  I'd like to see the NCAA reform non-conference scheduling and do something about all the power conference snow-flakes and their politically correct scheduling.  They hold the rest of us in chains in November and December and we end up fighting over the at-large scraps that fall from the master's table.  Deplorable.  Sad!

I understand your point, but I disagree with your statement that the tournament decides who the "best" team is. Or that an 18 game regular season is a small sample size, but a few games on a neutral court isn't, and decides ultimately who the best team is. I think it's a little absurd to think Green Bay was the best team in the league last year because they shot really well vs Valpo in one game. Green Bay was 1-2 vs Valpo and significantly behind them in pretty much every metric that ranks teams.

The moral game with an even playing field is nice and all, but mid majors aren't given a fair shake. Vanderbilt can lose to a crappy SEC bottom feeder in their tournament, but a good mid major can't lose at all. Ultimately the SEC program can get away with losing in the first round of their conference, but it's still all roses on selection Sunday. And hey, when they put on a pathetic show on national TV, they can always pouch a top mid major basketball coach from a team that did more with way less.

For the good of the conference, I could care less about playing fair, and leveling the teams out. The conference goes as the best teams go. Without NCAA tournament wins, there's not much sell to the conference, and I'm still trying to grasp why it's in the best interest of the conference to level things out again.

[StlVUFan]

I understand your point, but I disagree with your statement that the tournament decides who the "best" team is.

I never said that.  Tournament decides the champion, not who the best team is.  There is no way to determine who the best team is.  That's my whole point.

Or that an 18 game regular season is a small sample size, but a few games on a neutral court isn't, and decides ultimately who the best team is.

Once again, never said either of those things.

I think it's a little absurd to think Green Bay was the best team in the league last year because they shot really well vs Valpo in one game. Green Bay was 1-2 vs Valpo and significantly behind them in pretty much every metric that ranks teams.

Green Bay wasn't the best team last year.  They were the champion.

The moral game with an even playing field is nice and all, but mid majors aren't given a fair shake.
Vanderbilt can lose to a crappy SEC bottom feeder in their tournament, but a good mid major can't lose at all. Ultimately the SEC program can get away with losing in the first round of their conference, but it's still all roses on selection Sunday. And hey, when they put on a pathetic show on national TV, they can always pouch a top mid major basketball coach from a team that did more with way less.

Now you're just stealing my rant.

For the good of the conference, I could care less about playing fair, and leveling the teams out. The conference goes as the best teams go. Without NCAA tournament wins, there's not much sell to the conference, and I'm still trying to grasp why it's in the best interest of the conference to level things out again.

Once again: for the purpose of this debate, we don't know with high enough confidence who the best team is.  And again, if we did, I would be against having a conference tournament at all.

[zvillehaze]

You guys just don't get it.   

• The "Butler money" is gone.  So, find me another place that will give each school $20k.  no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.

In all due respect, 20K is pocket change. That's just LeCrone telling the sponsors they have to give him a bone to throw to the programs to help seal the deal. If someone needs 20K that bad, schedule a throw away game with a top Major and make 4-5 times that much. Heck, a group of us ran a golf tournament for charity a few years ago that made 80K and a Smoker that netted 65K. 20K - give me a break.

wh is spot on.  For perspective, when Butler left the Horizon, the league was getting roughly $4.5 million in annual payouts for NCAA tournament shares.  Six years later, they're getting $1.5 million, the same as the MEAC, SWAC and Big West.  I'm sure LeCrone is scrambling for every $, but until a team (or teams) step up and win some tournament games, budgets will be tight.

[justducky]

Valpo is clearly the league's best program ... the HL should be making it easier for Valpo to win the tournament, not harder (which they've done with MCM and new format).

You sound like the OLD Jon LeCrone before he caught that Motor City "Madness". Poor LeCrone is just a shell of his former self and he really wasn't much in the first place.

And I also think that the problems the HL face, while somewhat self-inflicted, are also problems shared by the lower 26 entirely and need to be solved at the NCAA level rather than by us using gimmicks as band-aids.  I'd like to see the NCAA reform non-conference scheduling and do something about all the power conference snow-flakes and their politically correct scheduling.  They hold the rest of us in chains in November and December and we end up fighting over the at-large scraps that fall from the master's table.  Deplorable.  Sad!

The BIGS and their stacked selection committee will give nothing to the mid-majors without an all out battle. BUT- what little we can control we need to do better.

The cycle for gaming the RPI system is over and the BIGS have won in a rout. 20 years ago they started each season with 100 yard leads but now the gates open with them already out of sight. Can bubble quality mid majors build bubble quality OOC schedules? Not without some kind of mid major gaming teamwork.

So just as a dream imagine some kind of federation geared toward mid major bubble selections. Hypothetical---Say a projected 45 RPI team needs 2 projected 90 RPI (off the bubble) home opponents. Wallah the federation makes some phone calls and those visiting teams are owed one (in the future) by the federation or by the original beneficiary. I know. Ideas like this fail because no one can see beyond their individual self interests but its my dream and I'll shape it however I want to.

[bigmosmithfan1]

So just as a dream imagine some kind of federation geared toward mid major bubble selections. Hypothetical---Say a projected 45 RPI team needs 2 projected 90 RPI (off the bubble) home opponents. Wallah the federation makes some phone calls and those visiting teams are owed one (in the future) by the federation or by the original beneficiary. I know. Ideas like this fail because no one can see beyond their individual self interests but its my dream and I'll shape it however I want to.

This idea has been bandied about on a few other mid-major sites and boards for years. But really, there should be some sort of scheduling consortium between the WCC, MVC, HL, MAC, CAA, etc. The (expected) top teams in those leagues are going to struggle to get good non-conference games. But if those leagues agree to help one another, you could guarantee an extra 3-4 top-100 (or better) opponents for the top 3-4 teams in each conference *every year*. It would really force the committee's hand and not force top mid-major teams to rely on the one or two cracks they get at Power 5 teams in November, on the road, with the Power 5 team's conference refs. Yes, there would be a million moving parts to this, but it's worth a shot. As you noted, the status quo for teams outside of the Power 5 + BE teams is *not working*.

On a related subject, I realize the Pioneer League is strictly a confederation for non-scholarship football programs, but seriously, VU is technically conference mates with Dayton, Davidson, Drake, San Diego (and Butler!) You're honestly telling me we can't leverage the PFL relationship to get a few non-conference basketball games lined up with these folks? We're practically colleagues, for heaven's sakes!

[M]

Every thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities.   

[oklahomamick]

Every thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities.   

You are correct on that. 

Wonder if MLB reads the forum?

[M]

Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all! 

[VULB#62]

Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all!

Actually, he does on an infrequent basis (alludes a bit to M's seen-one, seen-them-all observation), but he does check it out every now and again.   I'm also pretty sure that some athletic department people and athletes do as well but keep a low profile or only view as guests. For example, Matt LaBarbera and Brandon Vickery were frequent contributors (Brandon has been quiet and his Twitter feed has been less frequent since he joined the Sports Information Department F/T however.)  And even from Ohio State, Matt will occasionally chime in or share some news.

[M]

People in the athletic department most definitely do. 

[wh]

Why would he? If you've read one thread you've read them all! 

When I get a little time I will be offering up something new to ponder.

[covufan]

Every thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities.   

You are correct on that. 

Wonder if MLB reads the forum?

Yes.  And he is not MLB.

[VU2014]

Every thread around here ends on a new conference forming or a talk about facilities.   

Pretty much but folks should be concerned about things like the conferences and facilities. As for facilities its pretty simple to me. When a few people write a couple big checks and say they want it to go to the a renovated ARC. That won't happen till the President and Board makes it a goal. Moot point right now.

Badly want Paul Oren to have Mark Labarbera on his Podcast to discuss overall state of the Horizon League, Shifting Conferences around the Country and the reality of getting new facilities (not soon but the future). Just so much to talk about. Aaron Leavitt would also be a great guest.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Pretty much but folks should be concerned about things like the conferences and facilities

People can claim that the facilities talk has been beaten to death around here, and it probably has, but consider: people around the program were talking about the need for either a new arena or serious upgrades to the ARC when we announced we were joining the HL *a decade ago*. In fact, one direct quote from a member of the program back then was "we're going from having one of the top facilities in the Mid-Con to having the worst in the Horizon League, and we'll need to fix that soon." Yet, outside of a couple of cosmetic changes, here we are, with not even a faint plan in place to improve the situation. There are 16 million reasons why Bryce left for Vandy, as well as an easier path to the NCAA tourney, but you have to figure the university's lack of initiative on the facilities front didn't help matters, either.

[VU2014]

Some kind of news is suppose to break soon about the UWM. May affect the Conference. Media knows about it but hasn't broke the news yet and is sitting on it.

https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836990789033000960
https://twitter.com/Flamesmania/status/836995468714524678
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836995650915008513
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836996462479347716

[VU2014]

The Website Mid-Major Madness keeps teasing on twitter about some news for Oakland fans.

My guess is they are Picking Oakland to win the HL Tourney. I hope it's not something bigger like they're leaving the conference or something. I'd be pissed if they got an MVC invite over us or something. Doubt it is that but we shall see.

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836969114061180928

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836981050777665540

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836998425178746880

[ValpoHoops]

The Website Mid-Major Madness keeps teasing on twitter about some news for Oakland fans.

My guess is they are Picking Oakland to win the HL Tourney. I hope it's not something bigger like they're leaving the conference or something. I'd be pissed if they got an MVC invite over us or something. Doubt it is that but we shall see.

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836969114061180928

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836981050777665540

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/836998425178746880

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/1/14745628/oakland-grizzlies-michigan-greg-kampe-horizon-league-martez-walker-kay-felder

Nothing special

Posted at 12:00 central time. So, just after all these tweets

[ValpoHoops]

Some kind of news is suppose to break soon about the UWM. May affect the Conference. Media knows about it but hasn't broke the news yet and is sitting on it.

https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836990789033000960
https://twitter.com/Flamesmania/status/836995468714524678
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836995650915008513
https://twitter.com/PantherU/status/836996462479347716

The line "you're evil, lady" would suggest that the AD possibly has made some sort of decision that they aren't fans of.

Curious to see what. And what could come of whatever it is.

[VU2014]

@PantherU is hyping it too

https://twitter.com/pantheru/status/836999132384542725

[ValpoHoops]

@PantherU is hyping it too

https://twitter.com/pantheru/status/836999132384542725

Pretty sure he did that facetiously.

[yayphoenixyay]

Watch them self-report a post-season ban...Makes more sense to hype something like that than picking the damn number one seed to win the conference tournament.

[valpo64]

Who cares who is picked to win the HL Tourney...last year we were the overwhelming favorite and look what happened.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/MR_KJS/status/837059425403744256

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/837067703001235456

[a3uge]

I understand your point, but I disagree with your statement that the tournament decides who the "best" team is.

I never said that.  Tournament decides the champion, not who the best team is.  There is no way to determine who the best team is.  That's my whole point.

Or that an 18 game regular season is a small sample size, but a few games on a neutral court isn't, and decides ultimately who the best team is.

Once again, never said either of those things.

I think it's a little absurd to think Green Bay was the best team in the league last year because they shot really well vs Valpo in one game. Green Bay was 1-2 vs Valpo and significantly behind them in pretty much every metric that ranks teams.

Green Bay wasn't the best team last year.  They were the champion.

The moral game with an even playing field is nice and all, but mid majors aren't given a fair shake.
Vanderbilt can lose to a crappy SEC bottom feeder in their tournament, but a good mid major can't lose at all. Ultimately the SEC program can get away with losing in the first round of their conference, but it's still all roses on selection Sunday. And hey, when they put on a pathetic show on national TV, they can always pouch a top mid major basketball coach from a team that did more with way less.

Now you're just stealing my rant.

For the good of the conference, I could care less about playing fair, and leveling the teams out. The conference goes as the best teams go. Without NCAA tournament wins, there's not much sell to the conference, and I'm still trying to grasp why it's in the best interest of the conference to level things out again.

Once again: for the purpose of this debate, we don't know with high enough confidence who the best team is.  And again, if we did, I would be against having a conference tournament at all.

I understand your point now, but still disagree with some of it. I do agree that the 2 seed was sort of shafted, since they were a sitting duck while the other teams got a game under their belt on an unfamiliar court. I don't think the back to back games is all that much of a negative anymore. I think a better way to fix the discrepancy is to give only the 1 seed a double bye somehow, homecourt, and base the tiebreakers solely on winning percentage. RPIs would go up because teams would schedule easier.

I think the OOC portion of HL schedules has been completely shrugged off. From awards to seeding, there's no recognition of teams that ultimately benefit the conference. Last year Kampe said McClain should be considered for coach of the year because they won their 3rd conference game. There's a good case to be made that UIC cost Valpo an at-large due to dragging down everyone's RPI by at least 8 points. That and the NKU addition may have cost the league millions in NCAA tournament units.

I don't understand the league's strategy at this point. What exactly does the neutral court tournament benefit the whole league long-term? Other than a quick arena payment, I'm not sure I've heard a decent argument for the change from the league's point of view.