Motor City Madness ... What a joke

[bbtds]

how about having the tournament in Chicago at the new facility near McCormick Place? nice new arena and a fun city to hang around for a few days. It could also have some impact on promoting college hoops that Chicago desperately needs.

Not sure how the agreement is worded between McPier and DePaul on the use rights of the new McCormick Place facility. I have a feeling that McPier (the Chicago Authority that runs McCormick Place) would be in favor but that DePaul might not think it's a great idea. Maybe after the 5 years in Detroit has run it's course, UIC & Valpo together can approach McPier and work out a deal to use the facility at MP that as far as I know is half owned by McPier which is an authority granted by the Chicago City Mayor and Council which also, to a degree, represents the interests of UIC in the city in cooperation with the State of Illinois.

[vufan75]

Appears from this article new Wintrust Arena could be rented for non-DePaul events. Looks like a cash Windfall for DePaul going forward. But they invested $82 million with McPier to become partners.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.chicagotribune.com/news/watchdog/ct-depaul-basketball-arena-met-20160303-story,amp.html

[wh]

As I already pointed out, the HL tournament is only 1 of 3 neutral site tournaments in D-1 that don't finish on a Sat., Sun., or Mon. It is by design an attendance killer.

Average home attendance for a week night game probably doesn't exceed 3000. Now start subtracting. I doubt if more than a handful of students and faculty will be there. They cant even be counted on to show up to weeknight home games free of charge. Now take away all the casual fans, children in school, parents of children in school, people living pay check to pay check (a majority), people who work for large employers with prescheduled locked-in vacations for the year, low seniority workers with limited vacation time, seniors who faithfully attend home games who are on fixed incomes or who simply are not going to take 5 hour road trips, etc. Then add those who could but don't want to, and what do you have left?

Valpo and UIC voted against this move, and thus are the only 2 of 7 universities outside of the Detroit Metroplex who have a clue. The other 5 - GB, Milwaukee, WSU, CSU and YSU - supported this,  and they own it.

Let's stop kidding ourselves. These 5 universities didn't vote for this because they thought their fans would flock to a single-sight tournament in Detroit, or because it makes us look more like a big boy conference, or it provides for a good bonding experience. They did it because they were jealous of 2 programs hogging all the glory for the last 15 years and continuing - first Butler and then Valpo. They did what jealous people do - they ruin things for everybody. So here we are.

[FieldGoodie05]

As I already pointed out, the HL tournament is only 1 of 3 neutral site tournaments in D-1 that don't finish on a Sat., Sun., or Mon. It is by design an attendance killer.

Average home attendance for a week night game probably doesn't exceed 3000. Now start subtracting. I doubt if more than a handful of students and faculty will be there. They cant even be counted on to show up to weeknight home games free of charge. Now take away all the casual fans, children in school, parents of children in school, people living pay check to pay check (a majority), people who work for large employers with prescheduled locked-in vacations for the year, low seniority workers with limited vacation time, seniors who faithfully attend home games who are on fixed incomes or who simply are not going to take 5 hour road trips, etc. Then add those who could but don't want to, and what do you have left?

Valpo and UIC voted against this move, and thus are the only 2 of 7 universities outside of the Detroit Metroplex who have a clue. The other 5 - GB, Milwaukee, WSU, CSU and YSU - supported this,  and they own it.

Let's stop kidding ourselves. These 5 universities didn't vote for this because they thought their fans would flock to a single-sight tournament in Detroit, or because it makes us look more like a big boy conference, or it provides for a good bonding experience. They did it because they were jealous of 2 programs hogging all the glory for the last 15 years and continuing - first Butler and then Valpo. They did what jealous people do - they ruin things for everybody. So here we are.

Logic checks out.  I'd add that the chance for a Cinderella run through a neutral site tournament has GOT to be astronomically better.  The B1G regular season champ seems rarely to win their tournament.

Was looking at MSU...
13 Regular Season Championships
2x they won season and B1G tournament title in same year

Now I suspect the HL is a little more balanced but not at par.  Neutral site = the hot team wins.  So why would any average HL organization vote otherwise.  We lost by just allowing this to go to a vote.

Still optimistic, we had a great coming out party last night!  Onward and Upward...

[bbtds]

So the bad moves were made. I will enjoy the HL tournament as best as I possibly can in Detroit, much like we did in Tulsa and Kansas City, and hope that the HLT gets a move to Chicago, Indy, Milwaukee, etc. in the future.

Just don't be such debbie downers while the best of the situation can be made.

[bigmosmithfan1]

We lost by just allowing this to go to a vote.

Um, Valpo can't block a vote on their own, if a proposal is presented to the league presidents. There isn't a filibuster in play here.

This squares with what I've heard, is that there were 3-4 schools very loudly griping behind the scenes to HL leadership that Valpo had too big of an advantage hosting the tourney in the years they had #1 seed. Would not be surprising if one of them happened to relay that to the folks at Olympia, which prompted the no-bid proposal. (It should be noted that the HL heard the same complaints for years about the home-court situation when Butler was dominant in the conference, however, the HL never acted on that back then, much less moved the tournament on less than a year's notice when one of their teams looked poised for an historic season).

What's done is done and we need to make the best of the situation moving forward, but no, Valpo fans should not ever really "get over it" when it comes to how this all went down. There is absolutely no reason - none - that this should not have been announced more than a year in advance so that all teams could prepare for the change (a change in venue for post-season tournaments is typically announced 2-3 years out in other conferences). It was done on the quick, very specifically, to throw a last-minute obstacle in front of last year's team, and cost us an opportunity at a season for the ages.

[VULB#62]

So, as I understand it from your post, this is the second time that Valpo got screwed over ( the first was when, I believe, a mass exodus from the Mid Continent (?) was done and Valpo was left out) by fellow members of the league to which it belonged and was contributing winning basketball.  It is interesting that in both scenarios the protagonists were predominently public universities if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if that is wrong.

Back in time we discussed the merits of finding a conference with which we shared certain commonalities, i.e., private colleges, etc., etc.  So we do our part coming into the HL by upgrading our MBB prorgram and start winning championship and our reward is ............   

I am really thinking that we need some fresh air around here.

[oklahomamick]

I bet one of the schools complaining was Oakland.  They were new and not used to the winner being rewarded the tournament.  They probably thought it was crazy.  But they knew that's how the conference had been running it when they campaigned to get into the league. 

[crusaderjoe]

So, as I understand it from your post, this is the second time that Valpo got screwed over ( the first was when, I believe, a mass exodus from the Mid Continent (?) was done and Valpo was left out) by fellow members of the league to which it belonged and was contributing winning basketball.  It is interesting that in both scenarios the protagonists were predominently public universities if I am not mistaken. Please correct me if that is wrong.

Back in time we discussed the merits of finding a conference with which we shared certain commonalities, i.e., private colleges, etc., etc.  So we do our part coming into the HL by upgrading our MBB prorgram and start winning championship and our reward is ............   

I am really thinking that we need some fresh air around here.

Yes and no.   To be fair, while Valpo was very competitive during the last years of the old Mid-Con, the years before were fairly lean in that regard.  VU routinely finished last in the conference. 

As far as being screwed over, I can't speak for the Athletic Department but my impression was that VU did absolutely feel screwed over back then because of the perception that some kind of back door collusion had taken place; that is, VU had been led to believe all along that the conference was stable, and then, BOOM!, six schools promptly announced their departure within a year.  A few of those schools were charter members of the league (UIC, Cleveland State, UWGB) who had founded the AMCU/Mid-Con with Valpo, which rubbed salt on the wound.

It's true that the public schools led the exodus but I don't believe it was due to a private school bias so to speak.  Those schools left for the MCC/Horizon League at the time, which had a few private members of their own in Butler, Loyola, Detroit, LaSalle and Notre Dame.  As Valpo was the only private school in the AMCU/Mid-Con before 1994, it would have been impossible for the public schools to not have led that charge to begin with.  But yes, you are right--depending on who you talk to, potentially Motor City Madness is the second time that VU was shall we say was "dis-leveraged" by conference membership.

[motowntitan]

You guys just don't get it.     

• Since Butler left, the Horizon league has had the worst run ever in the NCAA Tourney.  It is currently at five straight 1st NCAA round losses. 2012-2016
• This year has showed that we don't have a team capable of making a run in the tourney.
• The "Butler money" is gone.  So, find me another place that will give each school $20k.  no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
• You don't think ESPN had a say in this?  In 2014, they had to switch locations from GB to the Nutter with only two days notice- They incurred the additional travel cost and stress of moving their "team".  That expenditure may not seem like alot, but in the penny pinching corporate world it was un-budgeted.
• There are only 6 other conferences that still have their tourney at the campus sites.  They are America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC.  Those are the conferences you want to compare the Horizon league to?

[NativeCheesehead]

Also, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?

[hailcrusaders]

Also, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?

Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.

You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.

[hailcrusaders]

You guys just don't get it.

• Since Butler left, the Horizon league has had the worst run ever in the NCAA Tourney.  It is currently at five straight 1st NCAA round losses. 2012-2016
• This year has showed that we don't have a team capable of making a run in the tourney.
• The "Butler money" is gone.  So, find me another place that will give each school $20k.  no one is earning any decent Tourney money soon.
• You don't think ESPN had a say in this?  In 2014, they had to switch locations from GB to the Nutter with only two days notice- They incurred the additional travel cost and stress of moving their "team".  That expenditure may not seem like alot, but in the penny pinching corporate world it was un-budgeted.
• There are only 6 other conferences that still have their tourney at the campus sites.  They are America East; Atlantic Sun; Big South; Northeast; Patriot; SWAC.  Those are the conferences you want to compare the Horizon league to?

A few answers to your points:

1. Yes. Five straight years. And if we keep sending middle-of-the-pack teams on a hot streak (like last year), we're going to keep losing NCAA games.

2. Debatable. I could see Oakland or a healthy Valpo making the Sweet 16. It's not likely and wouldn't pull a ton of money, but if you want consistent deep runs, you're gonna have to start looking at the B1G.

3. I know there aren't a lot of deep pockets around, but if the HL and it's member schools are utterly reliant on consistent NCAA tournament run money, we need to do some better planning.

4. I have no doubt ESPN has had a say in the formatting (especially the days of the week it's played on), but I don't feel sorry for them one bit. The possibility of switching locations should not have taken them by surprise -- they should know the tournament venue rules before they agree to cover the game. And if they want to be sticklers about it, fine. Play the conference championship at the 1 seed venue no matter what, then they won't have to move on short notice. I know that happened in Cleveland a few years ago in front of a lot of empty seats, but guess what we're seeing in the championship game at the Joe? A lot of empty seats. So what difference does it make?

5. I've never understood the "but other conferences are doing it too!" argument. Did your mother ever ask you if all your friends were jumping off a bridge, if you'd do it as well? Neutral site works much better for high major conferences, which the HL is not. Motor City Madness does not make the HL any more like a high major than Jordan sneakers make a middle schooler play like Michael Jordan himself. As a matter of fact, a few more years of 15-seed, cannon fodder autobids from the HL are going to put us moving in the opposite direction.

[Big D]

The HL didn't just receive the offer from Detroit and jump at it.  The league started the process of going to a neutral site over a year before it was announced.  They looked at dozens of cities/venues and Detroit was the best offer.  We aren't paying to rent Joe Louis Arena and we are all getting a paycheck out of it.  Cities like Columbus, Chicago, and Indianapolis were available to host the tournament but none offered the HL any type of compensation and the HL would have had to pay to rent the venue. 

[FieldGoodie05]

The HL didn't just receive the offer from Detroit and jump at it.  The league started the process of going to a neutral site over a year before it was announced.  They looked at dozens of cities/venues and Detroit was the best offer.  We aren't paying to rent Joe Louis Arena and we are all getting a paycheck out of it.  Cities like Columbus, Chicago, and Indianapolis were available to host the tournament but none offered the HL any type of compensation and the HL would have had to pay to rent the venue.

Are there any attendance clauses that you are aware of?  Because if we guaranteed a % sellout we need a Hail Mary soon or else we might be paying rather than collecting.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/836004386912546816

Valpo's Alec Peters has a stress reaction and will be re-evaluated Wednesday, source told ESPN. There is optimism the star forward will play in the Horizon tourney this weekend.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0627657242241405653-4

[valpotx]

It is good that we sat him over the last 2 games, even though it allowed Oakland to share the title.  A stress reaction is much better than a stress fracture.

[covufan]

Stress reaction?  Is this a reaction to normal stress?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[valpo64]

Perhaps next year, if the IPFW things gets ironed out, there will be changes in the Summit League...I don't believe Ft. Wayne will remain  a Div. 1 school after the "breakup" on their campus.  Beginning in "18, the school will have a Purdue identity, no more IU affiliation.  Could changes there have an effect on the HL?

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/RotoWireCBB/status/836007893421916160

RotoWire is calling it a stress fracture but I trust Goodman's report over theirs.

[valpotx]

Like many of us probably thought, they are just assuming that saying 'reaction' was an error.  Who would have known that a stress reaction is the predecessor to a stress fracture?

[motowntitan]

Also, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?

Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.

You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.

"Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others"

So what?  Using your twisted logic, I could argue the following:

2012 - Detroit loses to Kansas by 15, but Kansas' next loss wasn't until the final game.  Hey, Detroit beats Kansas and they are playing Kentucky for the championship
2013 - Valpo loses to MSU by 11, but MSU didn't get past the Sweet Sixteen, so your loss is worse than Detroit in 2012.
2014 - Milw lost to Villanova, but Villanova would lose their next game to UConn (Champ) the next game.
2015 - Valpo loses to Maryland, who would then lose their next game to West Virgina, who would then lose their next game to Kentucky, who would then only make it to the Final four.

So, by six degrees of Kevin Bacon, your two losses are both worse than Detroit AND Milw.  Neither team you lost to played either team in the Final game.

There is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo.  You are not as good as you think.   

[FieldGoodie05]

Also, from the Horizon Leagues perspective: Valpo had already been actively flirting with another conference. So why should they be looking to keep us happy?

Because we've been the toast of the conference since Butler left. In the six seasons since then, Valpo has won the conference or tied for first five times. We also had more postseason wins last year than anyone else has had. I know it was the NIT, but other teams have had opportunities and blew it. Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others:
2012: 15 Detroit lost to Kansas by 15 points (65-50)
2013: 14 Valparaiso lost to Michigan State by 11 points (65-54)
2014: 15 Milwaukee lost to Villanova by 20 points (73-53)
2015: 13 Valparaiso lost to Maryland by 3 points (65-62) (I won't mention the blown call at the end)
2016: 14 Green Bay lost to Texas A&M by 27 points (92-65), while Valpo makes a run to the NIT final.
2017: I'd be surprised if anyone not named Valpo or Oakland is able to keep their game within a single digit margin.

You know this, I know this, everyone on this board knows this, but if/when we leave that will be a huge loss for the Horizon League. I know we haven't had the FF runs that Butler has had, and if we did, we'd be playing our conference tournament in St. Louis and competing for at-larges.

"Even our NCAA losses have been more competitive than the others"

So what?  Using your twisted logic, I could argue the following:

2012 - Detroit loses to Kansas by 15, but Kansas' next loss wasn't until the final game.  Hey, Detroit beats Kansas and they are playing Kentucky for the championship
2013 - Valpo loses to MSU by 11, but MSU didn't get past the Sweet Sixteen, so your loss is worse than Detroit in 2012.
2014 - Milw lost to Villanova, but Villanova would lose their next game to UConn (Champ) the next game.
2015 - Valpo loses to Maryland, who would then lose their next game to West Virgina, who would then lose their next game to Kentucky, who would then only make it to the Final four.

So, by six degrees of Kevin Bacon, your two losses are both worse than Detroit AND Milw.  Neither team you lost to played either team in the Final game.

There is a reason no other conference is calling for Valpo.  You are not as good as you think.   

You're right....we're better. 

[FieldGoodie05]

Do any of us troll on OU or UDM forums?  AKA who is leading the bottom feeders from other teams to our forum?

[SanityLost17]

https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/836004386912546816

Valpo's Alec Peters has a stress reaction and will be re-evaluated Wednesday, source told ESPN. There is optimism the star forward will play in the Horizon tourney this weekend.

http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=21-0627657242241405653-4

Stress Reaction: Will heal fully with 2 weeks complete rest.  Soft spot on the bone, no Crack yet. 

Stress Fracture: 6 full weeks off for full recovery. Bone is cracked.

In both cases you can baby the bone through the end of the season. Usually no more than 2 days a week of impact drills.  Basically giving the bone 3-4 days no impact after a stressful day.