Motor City Madness ... What a joke

[Valpo89]

I figured it was about time someone started a Motor City Madness thread. There have been complaints and arguments for and against the tournament on various threads, so I thought let's get it done.
Plus, I wrote much of this post on a thread a few weeks ago and it was buried, so I wanted to bring it back in light of current discussions taking place.
As most of you old-timers know, I used to be a member of the local media and covered the Crusaders for many years. Now, I have "regular" job but still love most sports, in particular Valpo basketball. I go to as many home games as I can, read this board and enjoy any articles written about the team.
The Horizon League know-it-alls who moved the tournament to Detroit must have been afflicted with some sort of ailment which led to their Motor City Madness. One-site conference tournaments are not good for casual fans.
Who benefits from the tournament at one site:
1.   The Media: They get to see all the games for free. Most media members have their expenses covered by their employer. Mileage expense. Hotel. Food. They get to see all the teams in one venue. They get free meals at the arena. It's awesome. Some of my best memories are covering Mid-Continent Conference tournaments in the Quad Cities and in Kansas City.
2.   The Horizon League Staff: Same perks as the media. One site, 10 teams (or 20 with the women). The league people can mingle with all the important people from all the schools, all in one spot. And none of them have to pay anything to do so.
3.   To an extent, the players: This is a point made by Greg Kampe in Paul Oren's podcast. All the players receive gifts. They are treated well, as they should. They get to stay in, I'm sure, a very nice hotel. They get to see kids from other teams in a social setting. Maybe they will even have a banquet, which the "old" Mid-Con did one year when the tournament was at Wright State.
4.   Certain fans: For those who don't have to worry about vacation days or the expense of getting to and staying in Detroit, it's great if you want to watch a bunch of games over the course of a couple days.
Who does NOT benefit from the tournament at one site:
1.   The Average Fan: Hey, that's me now! And that's what led to my post (edited, below) from another thread.

I've had to laugh at lines from people like Kampe and LeCrone about the conference tournament attracting "fan bases" from all the schools. It's really only going to be the parents of the players and the few die-hards associated with the program. And for the bottom-feeder teams, it's going to be even worse. Except, of course Oakland and Detroit fans.

There's no way an average person would want to make the commitment to go to Detroit. And I'm not bashing just Detroit. This would be the case for me if the tournament was just about anywhere.
If Valpo earns the No. 1 seed and advances to the title game, this would be the schedule: a 5:30 p.m. game on March 4, a 7 p.m. game on March 6 and a 7 p.m. game on March 7.
March 4 is a Saturday, so I leave Valpo in the 9 a.m. range for the game at 4:30 central. Gas for the five-hour drive, maybe $30-$40?
Tickets for the game - I'm sure they aren't cheap. It looks like a floor-level seat is $40 per session.
Hotel room for Saturday night, Sunday night and Monday night - $100 minimum (I've lowered my estimate from a few weeks ago. I have to take vacation days off from work on Monday and Tuesday. The championship is at 6 Central on Tuesday, meaning the game ends at 8. A five-hour drive home puts me back in Valpo in the 1-2 a.m. range. And then I'm supposed to be at work on Wednesday at 8 a.m. so I don't have to take a third vacation day. I'm too old to do that any more.

So here's the tab: $300 for 3 nights in a hotel, $100 (at least) for food, $100 (at least) for gas, $160 for 1 ticket, 3 sessions = that is $66- for a bare bones estimate. Plus I burn two vacation days in early March and I'm dead tired when I get back on Wednesday morning. AND, this is assuming I go by myself, leaving my wife at home for 4 days with my 12-year-old son who would probably rather be with me and miss 2 days of school.

Plus, if Valpo LOSES in the first round ... do I really want to stay in Detroit another three days? Absolutely not. I hope I can get a refund on the hotel and go back to work on Monday, retaining my vacation days.

All of this for a tournament with a crappy off-campus atmosphere where they have to hide the empty seats from the ESPN cameras. And in an environment that makes it much easier for a Non-No. 1 seed to win, giving the Horizon League a No. 15 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

I don't care what kind of extra entertainment the league lines up. I'm staying home and watching the games online or on TV.

The league must really hate Valpo to make this deal with Detroit. Taking away the incentive to win the league and host the tournament was a huge mistake. Thank you, Horizon League.
I'm not against Detroit. I'm against the one-site tournament, and I'm sorry if Kampe thinks this is going to "grow" the league. Not a chance.

[bigmosmithfan1]

All of this. Everyone wants to point to the success of Arch Madness, but forgetting that it's truly a neutral site, relatively centrally-located to the conference schools (six of the 10 league schools are within a 2.5 hour drive, and the three most far flung members all have access to cheap, direct flights on Southwest), that they have a Fri.-Sat.-Sunday format (with the championship ending early afternoon on Sunday, so no one has to worry about taking work off on Monday). And St. Louis locals support the tourney like crazy. And because the MVC takes investing in facilities and scheduling by its members seriously and members pressure each other to avoid being RPI drags, they've been far more likely to not have a neutral-site tourney thwart its teams at-large chances.

A better comparison might be the MAC Tournament in Cleveland. And there's no question that has been a success, attendance wise, for that league, with semifinal and championship night attendances routinely being larger than 10,000 fans. But again, there are SIX conference members in Ohio (two within 30 minutes of the arena), more than 150,000 MAC alumni in Cleveland Metro, and two other out-of-state members within a 2.5 hour drive of The Q. But even in the MAC, there's the concern that the tourney has benefited Kent and Akron more than the rest of the league, as their ascendance to the top of the league coincides with the tourney being in those two schools' backyard. And again, the league employs a Thurs. - Sat. format, so it's possible to attend the entire shindig and only miss one day of work. It's worth pointing out that despite the gate success, this has arguably hurt the MAC from competing for at-large bids. Top teams were bounced in the early to mid 2000s, the league became known as a one-bid league, and they haven't returned (by contrast, the MAC was a two-bid league three times in the previous five seasons before moving the tourney to Cleveland).

Contrast that to Detroit, with only two league members within 4.5 hours of the venue, no local alumni outside of those two schools in the area, no local support (and while we're on the subject -- if Detroit is the answer, why in the heck is the HL home office still located in Indy instead of Detroit, or Chicago, or any other actual HL market that deserves its economic support and the associated jobs?), and an awkward Sat. - Tues. format that makes it impossible to attend without taking at least two and possibly three days off of work? Oh, and to top the sundae, the fan base of the #1 seeded team feels completely slighted, because they know that for 15 years prior to last season, they'd be rewarded by hosting the tourney instead of venturing to Detroit to play in an empty arena. Can't imagine why it won't work.

[IndyValpo]

While I do not disagree with any of your points it seems that the trend is the one site approach. I just checked all the conference tourneys and only 5 are entirely on campus sites....American East, Atlantic Sun, Big South, Northeast and Patriot. 

The Ivy (yes they a tourney this year) plays all the games at Penn. Additionally, CUSA (UAB), MAAC (Siena) and MWC (UNLV) play a one site "campus" tourney though I am not sure how many of those 4 are on the campus.

2 (MAC and SWAC) start on campus but finish at a neutral site.

The remaining 21 play entirely in a neutral site.  Of course there are levels of neutral............

[bigmosmithfan1]

I'm not saying a neutral site could never work. But you need to find something a) more centrally located or b) home to a large concentration of alumni from multiple schools around the league to support it. You also need to go to an all-weekend format, even if that means a less desirable TV slot for the title game.

Also, and yes I'll repeat it because its the truth - you will likely never have the support of Valpo fans due to the way the change went down: with almost no debate among the league or its fans, with less than a year's notice, with Valpo heading into a potentially historic season. The HL would never have pulled that in a million years heading into Butler's 2010 season and everyone knows it. The move may not have been specifically targeting Valpo's successful run, but it sure as heck feels that way to every VU fan I've ever talked to about this.

[bbtds]

One-site conference tournaments are not good for casual fans.

Why are you a casual fan? That is the real issue here. I have never considered myself a casual fan and don't understand why others would only semi-support their team. Join the real fun!

[crusaderjoe]

All valid points by the posters above.  For me personally, even though the venue is not "neutral", it was the five year deal without a proper roll-out that was the killer, and not the fact that the tournament was being held in Detroit. 

I'm not saying a neutral site could never work. But you need to find something a) more centrally located or b) home to a large concentration of alumni from multiple schools around the league to support it. 

What city would satisfy this criteria? The HL is so geographically compact and so urban-centric that it would be nearly impossible to play this thing in a city that would be considered to be a major media location but at the same time does not have a home court advantage for at least one league team.  Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dayton--all of these cities potentially have a non-neutral component to them by way of  a local fan base.  So what cities would fit the criteria?  Indianapolis?  Grand Rapids?  Pull a Mid-Con part deux and host in Fort Wayne? Columbus?  Serious question.

And LeCrone's comments during the YSU halftime interview about how the Michigan fan bases will be relied upon to help support the tournament makes this situation even odder.  Someone in the other thread mentioned this and it was a good point--if the HL is relying on local fan bases to help support the tournament in the first place, the League might have well kept it at local sites anyway to begin with.

[bigmosmithfan1]

What city would satisfy this criteria? The HL is so geographically compact and so urban-centric that it would be nearly impossible to play this thing in a city that would be considered to be a major media location but at the same time does not have a home court advantage for at least one league team.  Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dayton--all of these cities potentially have a non-neutral component to them by way of  a local fan base.  So what cities would fit the criteria?  Indianapolis?  Grand Rapids?  Pull a Mid-Con part deux and host in Fort Wayne? Columbus?  Serious question.

No easy answer there. Chicago probably has the most alumni from the most schools, but then its a potential advantage for UIC. But again, that reinforces the difference between an MVC/MAC setup and the way the HL's fanbases are scattered. It also underscores my second point: if the HL is going to a neutral site, not having an all-weekend tourney setup to make it easier for fans to attend is insanity.

(I'd still like to hear a good reason why the HL headquarters remain in Indy five years after Butler's departure).

[hailcrusaders]

The geographic center of all ten members of the Horizon League, for what it's worth, is the town of Camden, MI, pop. 500. It is just a few miles east of the northeasternmost point of Indiana. It's about midway (60 mi) between Kalamazoo, MI, Fort Wayne, IN, and Toledo, OH, although slightly closer to Fort Wayne than the other two.

I hate the idea of a neutral site tournament, but I have to wonder about putting it in Fort Wayne. I guess there isn't a huge HL alumni base there, but it can't be any more expensive than holding it in Detroit and it's more centrally located.

[usc4valpo]

If I am going to something labeled Motor City Madness, then Ted Nugent better be performing there and Stranglehold is played during warmups.

Btw, Arch Madness is successful because the MVc has more tradition and history and in all honesty St. Louis is just a better place to host a bunch of universities for an event.m

I think Milwaukee would be a much better location.

[a3uge]

Or they should just have it on the 1 seed's campus to reward them for having a good regular season.

[usc4valpo]

Having it at the top seed site is a little too low mid major. I really like the idea of having it in Milwaukee every year.

[VUOR63]

I didn't realize that every team has to win 3 games (except for the teams that are really stinky).  So essentially Valpo has to beat a stinky team, a less stinky team and a team that may or may not stink in order to make to the NCAA tournament.

[Valpo89]

I didn't realize that every team has to win 3 games (except for the teams that are really stinky).  So essentially Valpo has to beat a stinky team, a less stinky team and a team that may or may not stink in order to make to the NCAA tournament.

Yes, that is the league's solution to having "cold" 1 and 2 seeds losing to lower seeded teams that have already won a game on the tournament court.

[hailcrusaders]

Having it at the top seed site is a little too low mid major. I really like the idea of having it in Milwaukee every year.

What makes a tournament "low" mid-major, though? Sure, the Power 5 schools play neutral site tournaments, but they can make it successful because 1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team and 2) they are multi-bid leagues, so teams like Purdue or Wisconsin will get into the Big Dance and make noise without having to win the conference tournament. Meanwhile, when the HL sends a middling Green Bay as its automatic qualifier (which is more likely with a neutral site HLT), it may make for a feel-good cinderella story until they get stomped by 27 in the first round of the NCAAs. And no one takes the Horizon League seriously anymore because of it.

If you ask me, the HLT at a neutral site makes the HL look like we think we're a high major, when in fact we're more likely to send a middle-of-the pack team with our automatic qualifier to go one-and-done. And it's one-and-dones in March that will keep us at "low" mid-major status more than anything.

[wh]

To set the record straight:

--- 26 of 32 conferences hold their tournament at a "neutral" site.
--- 20 of the 26 neutral site tournaments conclude on the weekend (Saturday or Sunday). 
--- Of the 6 that conclude on a week night, 3 finish on Monday. 2 on Tuesday (HL and West Coast), and 1 on Wednesday (Patriot - low major).

Bottom line: the HL is 1 of only 3 neutral site conference tournaments in Division-1 that don't finish on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday.  Apparently, the other 23 found a way to avoid selling their souls (screwing their fans) for an ESPN contract. 

[hailcrusaders]

I didn't realize that every team has to win 3 games (except for the teams that are really stinky).  So essentially Valpo has to beat a stinky team, a less stinky team and a team that may or may not stink in order to make to the NCAA tournament.

Yes, that is the league's solution to having "cold" 1 and 2 seeds losing to lower seeded teams that have already won a game on the tournament court.

I'm not all that mad about the double-bye being done away with. I believe in the post-Butler HLT era (2012-present) the double bye teams NOT playing on their home court have gone 1-6.

2012 - #2 CSU lost to #3 UDM at the ARC
2013 - #2 UDM lost to #3 WSU at the ARC
2014 - #2 CSU lost to #3 WSU at the Resch
2015 - #2 GB beat #6 UIC at the ARC, #2 GB lost to #1 Valpo at the ARC
2016 - #1 Valpo lost to #4 GB at the JLA, #2 Oak lost to #3 WSU at the JLA

1-6 doesn't sound like it's very advantageous.

I think other conferences have more of a step-ladder format, where the only teams that play three or four in a row (and can build up momentum) are the worst teams in the league. Not likely they go on runs. When high seeds lose in the HLT, it's 3 or 4 seeds (still competitive) that catch a hot streak and beat them.  In a step ladder style tournament, 3 or 4 seeds would only have one extra game rather than two.

[bbtds]

1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team

A lot of people would call them "non-casual" or fanatic fans. A term which many on this board can not see themselves as being in that category. Many on this board label themselves "casual" fans and refuse to attend the HL tournament in any venue outside of a place within 100 miles of Valpo. I could go on about your "casualness" but you know who you are.

[bbtds]

Fan is actually short for fanatic

So that would make "casual fan" an oxymoron? Interesting.

Maybe "casual team observer" would be more appropriate for some Valpo "observers" on this board.     

[bbtds]

$160 for 1 ticket, 3 sessions

Here's one point that needed to be cleared up. All session tickets (5 sessions) are $75 in the Valpo section. Floor level are $120.

Then to counter my point I will add an expense you hadn't thought of. If you are staying away from the downtown area in a cheaper hotel not within walking distance of the JLA parking at the JLA parking garage is $10 per day.

[Valpo89]

$160 for 1 ticket, 3 sessions

Here's one point that needed to be cleared up. All session tickets (5 sessions) are $75 in the Valpo section. Floor level are $120.

Then to counter my point I will add an expense you hadn't thought of. If you are staying away from the downtown area in a cheaper hotel not within walking distance of the JLA parking at the JLA parking garage is $10 per day.

Good points TD. I'm not going to debate my level of "fandom" with you. Honestly, it's hard for me personally  to be a "fan."
Most people have other priorities that prevent them from spending the money and taking the time to go to a neutral site tournament. That's my biggest point from the fan-side of things.
And taking away the opportunity to host the tournament eliminates the biggest incentive for striving to win the regular season.
This was all the Horizon's way of sticking it to Valpo in more ways than one.

[a3uge]

1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team

A lot of people would call them "non-casual" or fanatic fans. A term which many on this board can not see themselves as being in that category. Many on this board label themselves "casual" fans and refuse to attend the HL tournament in any venue outside of a place within 100 miles of Valpo. I could go on about your "casualness" but you know who you are.

You'll be hard pressed to find over a dozen people willing to take 5 days off work for March basketball. 3 for the conference tourney, and 2 for the NCAA tournament. At some point fandom collides with living life.

[talksalot]

At some point fandom collides with living life.

would you please tell me when that is?   I haven't found that pressure point yet.

[RedHawk]

I went to Miami (OH), but I've become a big Valpo fan over the last couple years since my daughter is a student there.

I'd prefer that the conference tournament be held on a campus site. For mid-major conferences, I think it's needed to generate the crowds and enthusiasm that a chance to go to the NCAA Tournament represents.

That being said, if Valpo wins on Saturday of the tourney, I'll be heading from Indy to Detroit with my wife and daughter on Monday. We'll buy tickets as soon as Saturday's game is final.

It's a spring break trip for us. Not many people go to Detroit on spring break, but we are going to go and have a good time. We'll stay in a downtown hotel, have fun as a family, do some sightseeing, and cheer on Valpo to the NCAA Tournament. We figured that since my daughter isn't going anywhere else on spring break this year, we'd have a nice mini getaway. 

Sure it's a little pricey, but going to the NCAA Tournament is special.  Don't overlook that. This team needs and deserves our support. They should have been invited to the tournament last year, but this year they'll have to earn it.  There are plenty of excuses you can make about why you shouldn't go to Motor City Madness, but if a team has as good a shot as this year's team does, it's worth making the sacrifice.

[agibson]

I'm committed at home on the Saturday. And it turns out the last YMCA volleyball practice I'm coaching is on the Monday, so I'm inclined to keep that commitment (missing the first half, alas). Meaning I'll probably wait to buy tickets until after Monday's game. And drive up Tuesday for the final. Logistics to be figured out... (do I rent a car, get a hotel, ahead of time and cancel them if the Monday game goes badly? or try to make reservations on 12-24 hours notice? Do I even want a hotel?).

Even without the Saturday and Monday commitments, I'm far from sure that I'd have gone up for the Saturday game. The gap day is too much. Especially too much time away from my family - not sure my wife's _quite_ invested enough to take a Sunday off for the Saturday game, or to drive late into the night Saturday. Maybe I'd have considered driving up Saturday myself, returning Saturday late or _maybe_ Sunday morning.

I did go for all possible #1 seed games last year. My enjoyment of the games after Valpo lost was limited - the non-basketball elements of the trip were enjoyable enough. I could probably get into some other League games while Valpo is still alive, but maybe I'm not _so_ excited about it that I'd want to add a day or more to my itinerary.

[bbtds]

1) most of their schools have huge alumni bases that intently follow the basketball team

A lot of people would call them "non-casual" or fanatic fans. A term which many on this board can not see themselves as being in that category. Many on this board label themselves "casual" fans and refuse to attend the HL tournament in any venue outside of a place within 100 miles of Valpo. I could go on about your "casualness" but you know who you are.

You'll be hard pressed to find over a dozen people willing to take 5 days off work for March basketball. 3 for the conference tourney, and 2 for the NCAA tournament. At some point fandom collides with living life.

Yet because of their numbers at majors there are large quantities from any school in the NCAA tournament who jump at the chance of going any where there is an NCAA tournament site to see their team play.

How many took time off from their jobs to drive or ride a bus to Columbus to see Valpo play a late afternoon game against Maryland in the NCAA tournament in 2015 that the Crusaders played to the wire against the highly rated Terrapins to lose only by three with Keith Carter getting possibly fouled on a non-call in the last few seconds? How many of you were at that game? Do you call yourselves "casual observers of Valpo men's basketball" or "Valpo fanatics?"

I think in general when we aren't good enough fans/observers we just make excuses for not going to ease our consciences about not sacrificing for members of a team and their parents that have sacrificed much more than we have ever sacrificed in our lives. Look at the time and skill Alec has dedicated to Valpo basketball. We have never dedicated our time, skill or money in the way Alec dedicated himself to a university we cherish deeply.

Hooray! that Alec and the Peters family will reap the benefits of that time and dedication that Alec and his family gave so dearly. I heard Alec's widowed grandmother drove her car from Washington, IL to Valpo then got on the fan bus to Oakland traveled the 4 plus hours to Oakland County saw her grandson play then traveled the 4 plus hours back to Valpo and drove her car back to Washington, IL in the early morning hours. That is real dedication! That's at least 15 plus hours of riding/driving to support your family member.