Motor City Madness ... What a joke

[bbtds]

BBTDS,

Thanks for coming and being so open minded.  glad you had fun. 

Hell, Milw even made the title game exciting and it appeared both teams had support tonight.

Next year we will be in the new arena and have the Qline being able to take people from downtown to midtown no problem. 

Thanks for your city's hospitality.

We did drive around the construction site of the new Little Caesar's Arena. I saw those railroad tracks running down the street and imagined they were for a new transit line.

BTW, we were able to park down on Jefferson Street by the Post Office for free on the street. It was a 7 block walk but it was good for us who could use the exercise. It saved us $15 per day. The Olympia Staff were some very good people. I imagine they were disappointed that there weren't bigger crowds for the HLT but they did an excellent job. Red Wing season ticket holders were able to get a free ticket to the HLT championship day so some of them were also in the crowd tonight.

[oklahomamick]

What's the rpi of all HL teams?

[bbtds]

Caught the end of the UDM-UWGB WBB title game.  Phoenix are going to their 17th NCAA dance -- yayphoenixyay, you must be happy.  But I posted this because in watching this afternoon's title game on ESPNU, I was struck by how loud and energetic the 250-300 fans there were.  Then it dawned on me that the game was in Detroit and UDM was one of the teams playing.  There was a small cluster of UWGB parents and fans there but they weren't as loud as the UDM fans.

I would disagree with that being at the Joe during the game. I thought that the "green" group wasn't as loud as the "red" group but they did fine with their numbers.

[a3uge]

calling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab.  This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling

The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.

Thanks to bbtds for being the voice of reason.  If your "best" teams can't beat bottom feeders on a neutral court in the league tourney, why do you think they could beat a top three seed in the NCAAT on a neutral court?  NKU is the deserving champ and I hope they do well in the NCAAT.  They earned the right to try.

Has a Sweet 16 participant ever lost to a bad team before? You're essentially saying NKU has a better chance of beating a 2 seed than Oakland had a 3 or 4 because Oakland lost to a bad team in the conference tournament. Do you think Vegas would make NKU less of an underdog as a 15 than Oakland as a 14?

It's been said a million times, but sending the most "deserving" team based on some moral code shouldn't be the point. We're arguing that mid majors should tilt their tournament towards the highest seed in an effort to get the best possible seed into the NCAA tournament. This is done by making them play less games (double bye), and having the top teams play home games. It's not about fairness, or which team deserves the tournament more - it's strictly about generating a better seed for the NCAA tournament, which statically will increase the league's odds for winning tournament games.

[nkvu]

Ok I'm going back on my statement that my last post would be the only one this season. However, NKU winning the tournament in only their second year in the league and the first year of eligibility forces me to comment.  When NKU made the transition from DII to DI they were looking for a league to join. One of their officials made some comments to the media that indicated they hoped to join the Horizon League. As these comments were reported in the Cincinnati newspaper I posted to that effect on this forum. A certain sometime poster I presume with connections to Wright State took me to task on how silly this notion was and that his connections at Wright State "laughed" at the mere idea that NKU would be considered for membership.  I responded that NKU was a very successful DII program and there was no reason to think they wouldn't ultimately transition to a successful DI mid major. Nothing to laugh at. At the time, NKU joined another league.

Oddly enough a few years later, I guess the Wright State officials stopped laughing long enough for the league to invite NKU to join. Now that NKU will be representing the Horizon League in the big dance I wonder, is anyone connected to Wright State still laughing?

I'm a Valpo grad and fan who wishes this season had finished the way it started for Valpo and with a trip to the big dance. But I've lived in Northern KY for 38 years so I will confess that if Valpo didn't win the conference tournament, I am glad it was NKU.  So congrats to NKU. You have every reason to be proud. Good luck in the dance. And to those connected to that school somewhat north of Cincinnati, I want you to know I'm having a chuckle at your expense and toasting NKU with a Woodford Reserve right now.

[a3uge]

Ok I'm going back on my statement that my last post would be the only one this season. However, NKU winning the tournament in only their second year in the league and the first year of eligibility forces me to comment.  When NKU made the transition from DII to DI they were looking for a league to join. One of their officials made some comments to the media that indicated they hoped to join the Horizon League. As these comments were reported in the Cincinnati newspaper I posted to that effect on this forum. A certain sometime poster I presume with connections to Wright State took me to task on how silly this notion was and that his connections at Wright State "laughed" at the mere idea that NKU would be considered for membership.  I responded that NKU was a very successful DII program and there was no reason to think they wouldn't ultimately transition to a successful DI mid major. Nothing to laugh at. At the time, NKU joined another league.

Oddly enough a few years later, I guess the Wright State officials stopped laughing long enough for the league to invite NKU to join. Now that NKVU will be representing the Horizon League in the big dance I wonder, is anyone connected to Wright State still laughing?

I'm a Valpo grad and fan who wishes this season had finished the way it started for Valpo and with a trip to the big dance. But I've lived in Northern KY for 38 years so I will confess that if Valpo didn't win the conference tournament, I am glad it was NKU.  So congrats to NKU. You have every reason to be proud. Good luck in the dance. And to those connected to that school somewhat north of Cincinnati, I want you to know I'm having a chuckle at your expense and toasting NKU with a Woodford Reserve right now.

From 2011
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.0

When NKU joined:

http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2188.0

[FWalum]

From 2011
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.0

When NKU joined:

http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2188.0

Excelent Detective work a3uge! I will admit that this was not my preferred invitee and that I am pleasantly surprised at NKU's ability to compete at this level.  Congratulations on making the dance!

[crusaderjoe]

Ok I'm going back on my statement that my last post would be the only one this season. However, NKU winning the tournament in only their second year in the league and the first year of eligibility forces me to comment.  When NKU made the transition from DII to DI they were looking for a league to join. One of their officials made some comments to the media that indicated they hoped to join the Horizon League. As these comments were reported in the Cincinnati newspaper I posted to that effect on this forum. A certain sometime poster I presume with connections to Wright State took me to task on how silly this notion was and that his connections at Wright State "laughed" at the mere idea that NKU would be considered for membership.  I responded that NKU was a very successful DII program and there was no reason to think they wouldn't ultimately transition to a successful DI mid major. Nothing to laugh at. At the time, NKU joined another league.

Oddly enough a few years later, I guess the Wright State officials stopped laughing long enough for the league to invite NKU to join. Now that NKVU will be representing the Horizon League in the big dance I wonder, is anyone connected to Wright State still laughing?

I'm a Valpo grad and fan who wishes this season had finished the way it started for Valpo and with a trip to the big dance. But I've lived in Northern KY for 38 years so I will confess that if Valpo didn't win the conference tournament, I am glad it was NKU.  So congrats to NKU. You have every reason to be proud. Good luck in the dance. And to those connected to that school somewhat north of Cincinnati, I want you to know I'm having a chuckle at your expense and toasting NKU with a Woodford Reserve right now.

From 2011
http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=100.0

When NKU joined:

http://www.valpofanzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=2188.0

Let's go back a little farther than that:

http://valpofans.proboards.com/thread/4590/conference-realignment?page=1

[bigmosmithfan1]

Indeed, congrats to NKU on their tourney championship this year, and they've done a great job turning their program around.

(That doesn't change the fact that adding a transitioning and still-bad NKU to the HL last year instead of this year - when they were finally eligible for postseason - cost Valpo an at-large bid last March by forcing two more RPI-drag games on to everyone's schedule. So even when the HL leadership makes an addition that seems to work out, they still completely botch the timing to the conference's detriment).

[valpolaw]

NKU is an impressive team.  Drew McDonald is a stud and I wish we had him. Unfortunately for us he is only a soph. 

[vufan75]

LeCrone must be smiling with these numbers for tourney attendance. How close to accurate is anyone's guess.
Ran across this tweet from Cam Fuller @CFuller_HL
#MotorCityMadness total attendance of 29,240 represents a 40% year-over-year growth. Next year the the madness moves to in @LCA_Detroit. https://t.co/5zViTbZZjd

[VU2014]

LeCrone must be smiling with these numbers for tourney attendance. How close to accurate is anyone's guess.
Ran across this tweet from Cam Fuller @CFuller_HL
#MotorCityMadness total attendance of 29,240 represents a 40% year-over-year growth. Next year the the madness moves to in @LCA_Detroit.
https://t.co/5zViTbZZjd

https://twitter.com/CFuller_HL/status/839303038678548481

40% increase but you have to factor in this year we added the women's games to the Tournament, which is double the games from last year.

To give context Arch Madness in 2016 drew drew 50,021 in 26th year of the event. BUT, Arch Madness is only Men's games.

http://www.hoopville.com/2015/03/11/final-arch-madness-notes-mvc-still-in-good-hands-in-st-louis/

[valpopal]

The total attendance announced by the Horizon League for the entire tournament (men and women) is 29,240, and the league is boasting a 40% increase. However, let's look at the numbers so that we are clear where the 40% is created.


The attendance in 2016 was 20,908. The Horizon League figure seems to count all in attendance, not just paid. Of course, those who bought session tickets were counted five times (once each day) this year whether they attended or not, and only four times last year (a 25% increase). Due to the addition of the women this year, there were 18 games instead of nine. Therefore, the attendance per game was 1,624. Last year, the attendance per game was 2,323. However, the Horizon League does not take attendance per game, they do so per session (day). There were five sessions this year: 5,848 per day. Last year there were four sessions: 5,227 per day. We can conclude the attendance for women's games was lower than for the men's games, but I also would think the attendance for women's games was down, since in 2016 the tournament was held on campus in Green Bay, which had an average attendance over 2,500 for regular season women's games.


So, if you add a day and count each session ticket holder one more time this year, plus you add the attendance for women's games, and you count all attendees instead of just paid ticket holders, you get the Horizon League numbers. Consequently, to quote Chevy Chase to Rusty in "Vacation," that 40% increase is "nothing to be proud about."

[wh]

The total attendance announced by the Horizon League for the entire tournament (men and women) is 29,240, and the league is boasting a 40% increase. However, let's look at the numbers so that we are clear where the 40% is created.


The attendance in 2016 was 20,908. The Horizon League figure seems to count all in attendance, not just paid. Of course, those who bought session tickets were counted five times (once each day) this year whether they attended or not, and only four times last year (a 20% increase). Due to the addition of the women this year, there were 18 games instead of nine. Therefore, the attendance per game was 1,624. Last year, the attendance per game was 2,323. However, the Horizon League does not take attendance per game, they do so per session (day). There were five sessions this year: 5,848 per day. Last year there were four sessions: 5,227 per day. We can conclude the attendance for women's games was lower than for the men's games, but I also would think the attendance for women's games was down, since in 2016 the tournament was held on campus in Green Bay, which had an average attendance over 2,500 for regular season women's games.


So, if you add a day and count each session ticket holder one more time this year, plus you add the attendance for women's games, and you count all attendees instead of just paid ticket holders, you get the Horizon League numbers. Consequently, to quote Chevy Chase to Rusty in "Vacation," that 40% increase is "nothing to be proud about."

The number of traffic fatalities over the last July 4th holiday weekend was 33% higher than the prior year. Shocking!

Whoops, I "forgot" to mention that this year was a 4-day holiday weekend; last year was a 3-day.  Never mind...

[valpo64]

Don't forget to add in the Red Wing season ticket holders for the final session.  Oh yes, and did the tourney again provide free bands to the participants?  And did someone say that each school receives $20,000 per year from Tourney receipts or from whoever?  Wow!  Quite a deal.

[ml2]

Has anyone else here checked out NKUs message board?

http://www.norsefans.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=5a243d90fdca9060b654756c28e69c1f

[Valpo89]

There's like 1 guy on the NKU board, is there something specific that stood out?

[VULB#62]

I saw the same pattern -- total replies for each string in single digits mostly.  Some views were up to 175.  There are 3 categories BB, BB recruiting and Olympic sports or something.

[JerryG203]

Wright State fan here. I enjoy reading your board occasionally. To the NKU fan. I thought NKU was a great addition to the league. It made sense geographically and maybe gives Wright State a bit of a rival. I was a Cincy Bearcats fan as well growing up and remember several times NKU taking a beating as D2 team from the Bearcats. But it's no surprise that they are going to be a good program being in the basketball rich area of Cincinnati/Kentucky. A few other thoughts from a non Valpo fan!...

-Jon Lecrone mentioned possibly having the tournament in Chicago or Indy in the future. I like the Indy idea a little better. I think the league gets lost in the shuffle in Chicago. There's too much going on in Chicago for people to notice the Horizon League tournament. They may not notice it much in Detroit, but I'd say there is a little better chance.

-I understand the frustration of some of you Valpo fans, but the bigger question is how do the top 3 teams in the league lose to 3 of the bottom teams in the league? And Valpo and Oakland both losing in the first game two years in a row? For Oakland I think it's more embarrassing and makes you question the makeup of their team (not talent wise but maybe mentally, leadership wise)

-The most exciting game I have been to probably in my life was Wright State hosting Butler in the horizon league championship game and winning it in 2007. Hard to duplicate an on campus championship game with so much on the line.

-Personally I wish Wright State was in the MAC. To be with all those schools in Ohio makes sense to me, with lots of rivalries.
-The MAC has a pretty good thing going in Cleveland, MVC in St. Louis...If Horizon sticks to it maybe that happens. The problem might be putting hope in Detroit and Oakland being good tourney teams.

-The basketball in the Horizon is pretty decent overall I'd say. Hopefully next year the league is better as a whole and the top teams actually do well in the Horizon League tournament in the new stadium. We'll see!

[valpo64]

Does anyone know the break-even point in attendance, etc for the Tourney?  Are figures available showing income/expenses?

[VULB#62]

They will never see the light of day.

[valpo04]

calling it almost criminal that conferences render the entire season meaningless by way of a blatant money grab.  This lack of ethics by the conference/NCAA is appalling

The #1, #2 and #3 seeds rendered the season meaningless by losing to the the #9, #10 and #6 seeds in the HLT. There is no reason that what happened should have happened. Valpo losing Peters was a major factor but they still should have beaten Milwaukee.

Thanks to bbtds for being the voice of reason.  If your "best" teams can't beat bottom feeders on a neutral court in the league tourney, why do you think they could beat a top three seed in the NCAAT on a neutral court?  NKU is the deserving champ and I hope they do well in the NCAAT.  They earned the right to try.

Has a Sweet 16 participant ever lost to a bad team before? You're essentially saying NKU has a better chance of beating a 2 seed than Oakland had a 3 or 4 because Oakland lost to a bad team in the conference tournament. Do you think Vegas would make NKU less of an underdog as a 15 than Oakland as a 14?

It's been said a million times, but sending the most "deserving" team based on some moral code shouldn't be the point. We're arguing that mid majors should tilt their tournament towards the highest seed in an effort to get the best possible seed into the NCAA tournament. This is done by making them play less games (double bye), and having the top teams play home games. It's not about fairness, or which team deserves the tournament more - it's strictly about generating a better seed for the NCAA tournament, which statically will increase the league's odds for winning tournament games.

For small conferences, Championship Week does more harm than good

In recent years, nearly two-thirds of mid- and low-major regular season champs have been left out of the NCAA Tournament. Meanwhile, teams with losing records have become the norm on Selection Sunday. Sub-.500 teams have made appearances for five straight seasons now, with last year's 14-19 Holy Cross squad arguably being the worst of all.

Meanwhile, instead of a small payout near (or less than) $300,000 for most conferences, they could be making smarter long- and short-term investments by sending their best teams to the NCAA Tournament. These leagues are potentially leaving millions on the table each year as a result.

However, by sending their best teams, those leagues would stand a chance to increase their shares of the constantly climbing total. The millions earned from advancing in the NCAA Tournament and the resulting exposure would more than make up for any short-term loss on Championship Week.

[bigmosmithfan1]

That article from The Comeback is great and should be on the desk of every mid-major AD by the morning. I'm becoming more convinced that all mid-major leagues are currently being willing marks by helping to perpetuate the problem.

Until the NCAA reforms the at-large process, prioritizing strong mid-majors and de-emphasizing mediocre Power 5 squads, or expands the tourney, mid-major leagues should be awarding their at-large bids to their regular season champ. (Or limiting any tourney/playoffs to situations when there's a tie for the regular season title - that's much better decided on the court than on paper).

[wh]

For small conferences, Championship Week does more harm than good

"The two-week long basketball bonanza has largely served as a reward for failing to handle your business in the regular season, while punishing teams that succeeded in conference play. It played out like that for Belmont and others already this month. Their season was a one-game playoff, despite the dominance up to that point."

This article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to defend the current HL tournament format.  This also confirms that the HL Athletic Directors that designed the double bye, top seed hosted format in 2002 knew exactly what they were doing.

Maybe we need to start a "let's make the Horizon League great again" campaign.

[yayphoenixyay]

^ I don't know if using a slogan like that would attract the right clientele/support...

My proposal is a 6 team playoff, top two seeds get byes to the semi-finals, all games are hosted by the higher seed, games are every other night. How hard is that?