Motor City Madness ... What a joke

[M]

That makes too much sense.

[oklahomamick]

I like the proposal, now will it be in Detroit? 

[zvillehaze]

This article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to defend the current HL tournament format.  This also confirms that the HL Athletic Directors that designed the double bye, top seed hosted format in 2002 knew exactly what they were doing.

The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI. 

Your echo of your former A.D.'s cry baby rant sounds exactly like fans from the D-1 Major world (and discussed this morning with Jay Bilas on Mike and Mike) calling to "blow up" the current NCAA tournament format and start over in the aftermath of 11th-seeded VCU's upset win over no.1 seeded Kansas.  The same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play.  Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them.  Exactly what should have been done in 2002.     

The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002.  It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change).  It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone.  I will repeat what I have said many times.  There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us.  All this format does is help the team on top stay on top.  In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult.  We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.     

I feel like I don't even know you anymore.

On a side note, the tournament format change in 2003 that was apparently done to benefit Butler never really did that.  They won two tourney championships on their home court in 2008 and 2010 ... they would have clearly earned an at-large in both of those seasons.

The same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play.  Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them. 

This could also apply to many posts made on this board over the last few days.

[ml2]

There's like 1 guy on the NKU board, is there something specific that stood out?

Two things:

1) The name NorseFans.com is literally a misnomer, because there are not yet two of them.

2) I really admire the tenacity of someone who posted nearly 300 times without a response from any fellow fans. One day when NKU's fan base has grown and there's more activity for them online, that poster will truly be able to say, "I was here before it was cool!"

[VULB#62]

Interesting take on it, Matt. Nice to see your post.

[bigmosmithfan1]

2) I really admire the tenacity of someone who posted nearly 300 times without a response from any fellow fans. One day when NKU's fan base has grown and there's more activity for them online, that poster will truly be able to say, "I was here before it was cool!"

Nothing wrong with being the first NKU hipster!

[wh]

This article should be required reading before anyone is allowed to defend the current HL tournament format.  This also confirms that the HL Athletic Directors that designed the double bye, top seed hosted format in 2002 knew exactly what they were doing.

The real lesson learned from 2002 is that you can be good (25-5), beat good teams (Purdue and eventual National Runner-up IU) and still be excluded from the NCAA tourney if you're from a mid-major conference and don't have a stellar RPI. 

Your echo of your former A.D.'s cry baby rant sounds exactly like fans from the D-1 Major world (and discussed this morning with Jay Bilas on Mike and Mike) calling to "blow up" the current NCAA tournament format and start over in the aftermath of 11th-seeded VCU's upset win over no.1 seeded Kansas.  The same lame logic is being used by people who just can't accept that their precious elitist team's season is over because of one bad game to a clearly inferior upstart opponent that no one has ever heard of and that they would beat 20 times out of the next 20 they play.  Hopefully in this case, these rants will be ignored and labeled for they are - sour grapes from highly immature people who think life revolves around them.  Exactly what should have been done in 2002.     

The most ridiculous spin I have ever heard in my life goes back to 2002.  It is one of the primary reasons given to legitimize the double bye tournament process (and disguise the real reason for the change).  It goes something like this: Double bye format = best team in the tournament @ the highest possible seed = more tournament wins = more recognition for the Horizon League = better recruiting opportunities for everyone.  I will repeat what I have said many times.  There are no crumbs from the Butler table for the rest of us.  All this format does is help the team on top stay on top.  In fact, it makes recruiting even more difficult.  We're now trying to attract players to come play in the league that Butler owns.     

I feel like I don't even know you anymore.

I freely admit that my position regarding the double bye format has evolved over the past 10 years. Evolutionary thinking is what separates us from the apes. 

[bbtds]

all games are hosted by the higher seed

I like the proposal, now will it be in Detroit? 

Only if Detroit Mercy is the higher seed.

[zvillehaze]

I freely admit that my position regarding the double bye format has evolved over the past 10 years. Evolutionary thinking is what separates us from the apes. 

Glad you're able to keep your sense of humor and took my comment in the spirit it was posted.   

[RedHawk]

I had posted a while back that we'd be taking a spring break trip to Detroit to watch the tourney. That didn't happen due to the disappointing loss Saturday night. We ended up going to Kalahari waterpark in Sandusky, and we had a great time. Saw some YSU fans there after their loss.

I'm planning on going next year to see it.  Here's hoping Valpo manages to win a game. I think Valpo should schedule a game at the Little Caesars arena, either preseason, late-season neutral court game, or convince Oakland to play their home game there.

Congrats to NKU. Hope they shock someone.

It's a joke that good mid-majors can't make it to the dance because of RPI issues. There's no way an at large-bid should go to a power conference school with a losing conference record.  Having at least a .500 conference record should be a requirement for an at-large bid. The major schools won't allow that to happen, but it would at least make the regular season more meaningful to them. Even a weak school that gets to host top 100 RPI teams is going to win a few of those games. Even the Cinderella NC State team was 8-6 in the ACC that year. And the 85 Villanova team had a winning conference record.

Another option I'd like to see is expand the NCAA Tournament by 32 teams so that regular season champions automatically qualify. That would be 32 teams with auto-bids in addition to the conference tournament champs. Have a bunch of play-in games to reward success during the regular season. That would allow the conferences to have tournaments in whatever format they wanted without penalizing top seeds.

The big schools won't want to give up their piece of the pie, so it probably won't happen, but a guy can dream.

[justducky]

I freely admit that my position regarding the double bye format has evolved over the past 10 years. Evolutionary thinking is what separates us from the apes. 

I never liked the double bye and never will. It was the home court that provided the advantage. Does that make me a Neanderthal?

[StlVUFan]

I presume it will come as no surprise that outside of that turd of a game we played Saturday night, I had a blast in Detroit.

My absolute favorite game was NKU vs. Wright State.  That game was breathtakingly exciting.  I also thought most of it was played at a fairly high level.  There were stretches when I almost got whiplash looking over at one of my friends with my best "Holy crap, did you see that play!" look, only to find the same look on their faces.

YSU-Oakland might have been just as entertaining, but I don't remember having quite the same reaction while it was going on.  Maybe it was because I expected Cameron Morse to have a big night.  I did *not* expect such a monster performance from Grant Benzinger.

I also enjoyed the UIC-GB game for a number of reasons (my irrational grudge against Turner Botz no doubt figured into the mix).  It too had a lot of excitement.

And frankly, I was impressed by Milwaukee - except against us - the entire tournament.  Part of me wanted them to win so I could see them play in Dayton, but I'm fine with NKU as well.  They really impressed me.

I needed all that excitement on Sunday-Tuesday to wash away the turmoil in my mind over Saturday night, but the source of that turmoil was not the same as it was for some of you.

I heard Luke Gore talk about how the Valpo men declined to come a day early and have their shootaround to get familiar with JLA (and learned that we'd made the same decision last year).  Someone indicated that Matt Lottich mentioned this too in his postgame press conference.

My initial reaction was: WTF?  Why would we not jump at the chance to practice on the floor we'd be playing on (since we then complained about it after the game was over)?

I really still do not understand this decision, which was a Valpo decision, not an HL decision.  I really did not know what to think as I walked back to my hotel.  A lot of mindless speculation flooded into my head which I'm not going to regurgitate here because I don't feel like I have the full story.  But I'm waiting to hear it, because I think it's important - not that there's anything magical about spending a half hour on the floor translating into winning the title, mind you, but because it seems like such a mysterious decision that I can't help wonder if there's something else going on.  By the way, NKU also did not use their shootaround time, and they did just fine, so I'm not pinning Valpo's loss on that.

But after Sunday night, the questions remained, but the turmoil was gone.  I really needed that evening session to cure the blues.

zvillehaze, I want you to know that I have remained consistent all these years since 2008: I loathe the double-bye/home court advantage format.  Always have, always will   I won't inflict all the gory details of my position again since I've done it several times.

All in all, I had a blast.  And except for the end zones, the lower bowl was fairly full Tuesday night.  Milwaukee and NKU both brought a lot of fans.  Somehow on Sunday night the "emptiness" of the stands totally escaped my attention - since I was there to watch the games and not the fans.  Maybe it was all the noise the measly crowd managed to make as Grant Benzinger was hitting 3s from downtown with 3 guys draped all over him.  Who knows.

I hope next year, Valpo commits to tourney prep a little more than they have so far.

[nkvu]

I'm going to make a few observations here about our program that may ruffle a few feathers so take it as you will. I started becoming interested in  VU basketball after the 1998 NCAA run to the sweet 16. One thing I have noticed since then is what I call a lack of mental toughness in our teams. Too often they play down to the level of the opposition. Too many times have our teams had superior seasons crushed by losses to teams they should have beaten in the conference tournament when it counted. Yes we had adversity this year. Still, how many UMW players would we rather have had then the ones we put on the court?  Yet we lost. If I recall NKU was the other team that didn't take the pre tournament shoot around yet they won it all. Why didn't we?  How many NKU players would we take above the ones we put on the court?  Two max. Their post player was 6'7 yet he made our two 7 footers look like they had never played the game before.

Yes I know we didn't have Alec or Jabril this year. Well, we had them last year along with the Horizon League defensive player of the year and the point guard we wished we had had this year and we still couldn't get it done last year. Our teams, with very few exceptions, lack the mental toughness to refuse to lose to lesser teams when it counts. Until we figure this out I'm afraid we will continue to suffer through seasons of heightened expectations dashed come conference tournament time.

[a3uge]

I had posted a while back that we'd be taking a spring break trip to Detroit to watch the tourney. That didn't happen due to the disappointing loss Saturday night. We ended up going to Kalahari waterpark in Sandusky, and we had a great time. Saw some YSU fans there after their loss.

I'm planning on going next year to see it.  Here's hoping Valpo manages to win a game. I think Valpo should schedule a game at the Little Caesars arena, either preseason, late-season neutral court game, or convince Oakland to play their home game there.

Congrats to NKU. Hope they shock someone.

It's a joke that good mid-majors can't make it to the dance because of RPI issues. There's no way an at large-bid should go to a power conference school with a losing conference record.  Having at least a .500 conference record should be a requirement for an at-large bid. The major schools won't allow that to happen, but it would at least make the regular season more meaningful to them. Even a weak school that gets to host top 100 RPI teams is going to win a few of those games. Even the Cinderella NC State team was 8-6 in the ACC that year. And the 85 Villanova team had a winning conference record.

Another option I'd like to see is expand the NCAA Tournament by 32 teams so that regular season champions automatically qualify. That would be 32 teams with auto-bids in addition to the conference tournament champs. Have a bunch of play-in games to reward success during the regular season. That would allow the conferences to have tournaments in whatever format they wanted without penalizing top seeds.

The big schools won't want to give up their piece of the pie, so it probably won't happen, but a guy can dream.

I see RPI blamed for mid majors not getting at-large bids. It's important to note that Valpo had a better RPI than several middling power conference schools last year. It's always difficult to have a good RPI in a mid major conference because mid majors actually have to play road games. Pretty much nobody plays more than 1-2 road games ooc in power conferences, so every team's win/loss record is better than it should be (had there been some schedule balancing).

So the selection committee members (I don't think they're corrupt - I just think they're usually uninformed idiots) will ignore RPI when it comes to at large, because they've heard it is flawed (but they don't know in which way). Instead, they'll use even more egregious metrics like Top 25 RPI wins, and Top 50 RPI wins. Wait, didn't we just decide RPI was flawed? Why are we bracketing RPI now as if winning vs the 51st RPI team is not as crucial as winning vs the 50th RPI team? Furthermore, it's not the winning percentage vs top 25/50 teams that count, it's the quantity of wins, which makes most mid majors ineligible!

So it's not RPI's fault for leaving mid majors out, it's the selection committee's misuse and misunderstanding of the tool.

The real fix to this is start penalizing teams for playing no road games outside of conference. I doubt we'll ever see schedule balances where teams actually have to play on the road, but the selection committee can fix this issue themselves.

[VU2014]

An interesting proposal of how to help the Best Mid-Major Teams not suffer from their own Conference Tournaments. Would have helped Valpo last year.

https://twitter.com/JonSolomonCBS/status/840205692275437568

[StlVUFan]

An interesting proposal of how to help the Best Mid-Major Teams not suffer from their own Conference Tournaments. Would have helped Valpo last year.

https://twitter.com/JonSolomonCBS/status/840205692275437568

I read the transcript of the podcast where he talked about this, and I thought at least one part of it was an absolute joke.  I also question whether his idea would really result in that outcome or not.  I feel like he was just flailing at best (and carrying water for the power conference teams at worst).  He complained that Duke and UNC can't play everybody every year, as if that's what anybody is asking them to do.  To say nothing of obscuring a very real and far less legitimate (though far more popular and applauded) response to the tune of "We have nothing to gain and everything to lose."

If I'm missing the gems with Bilas, so be it.  I just can't get past the smugness for some reason.

[zvillehaze]

zvillehaze, I want you to know that I have remained consistent all these years since 2008: I loathe the double-bye/home court advantage format.  Always have, always will   I won't inflict all the gory details of my position again since I've done it several times.

Respect your opinion.  Neutral court tourneys with both men and women are awesome for basketball junkies like you (and BBTDS) who want to enjoy 4 or 5 days of basketball in a great location.  My daughter attended the Summit League tourney a few times and absolutely loved it. 

I defended the old HL format because from 2003 to 2011, it resulted in success for the HL in the NCAAT through both multiple bids and NCAAT wins. But ultimately, the league's coaches and ADs will decide what format is best for the league.

If the HL is committed to a neutral tourney, I hope they keep location flexible.  After the deal in Detroit is up, I think Indy should be considered.  The renovated arena at the State Fairgrounds (IUPUI's home arena) would be centrally located and would truly be a neutral location.  I also think you'd get support from locals (like me) who would love to see some tournament basketball in a great venue.

[IndyValpo]

I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.

[StlVUFan]

If I had my way it would have been in Indy because I don't think it should be in any school's back yard (I think Chicago would be as bad as Detroit on that count).  But, location is not that big of an issue to me.

[VU2624]

I heard Luke Gore talk about how the Valpo men declined to come a day early and have their shootaround to get familiar with JLA (and learned that we'd made the same decision last year).  Someone indicated that Matt Lottich mentioned this too in his postgame press conference. My initial reaction was: WTF?  Why would we not jump at the chance to practice on the floor we'd be playing on (since we then complained about it after the game was over)? I really still do not understand this decision, which was a Valpo decision, not an HL decision. 

Was the after game whining from the coaches about it ever followed up with an appropriate question such as "why didn't you decide to take your allotted time?". I'd think that would be the right thing to do by those doing writeups on the program. Then again, maybe I missed the Q and A.

My own specumatatin' has me believing that the travel decision came from some source other than the coaching staff since two of them mentioned it and they'd be unlikely to incriminate themselves with the assumption that the followup question would be asked.

[IndyValpo]

The OVC is going to Evansville after 20+ years in Nashville.

[bbtds]

I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.

Most people who stay for the State Fair stay in the east end hotels off Shadeland or Post Rd. Or they stay downtown.

[a3uge]

I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.

Because driving or taking a $10 Uber from downtown is too unreasonable?

But that's besides the point. They're going to hold it in whatever place pays the most money.

[IndyValpo]

I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.

Because driving or taking a $10 Uber from downtown is too unreasonable?

But that's besides the point. They're going to hold it in whatever place pays the most money.

Unreasonable to me, have it at the convention center and everything is walkable. Unfortunately neither will bid on this tourney though I would be all for it!

[a3uge]

I would love it to be in Indy and I love what they have done with the Coliseum but there are no hotels or restaurants remotely close. The only viable spot would be at the Convention Center.

Because driving or taking a $10 Uber from downtown is too unreasonable?

But that's besides the point. They're going to hold it in whatever place pays the most money.

Unreasonable to me, have it at the convention center and everything is walkable. Unfortunately neither will bid on this tourney though I would be all for it!

That'd be difficult because the convention center doesn't have a basketball arena in it.