2017-18 VU Schedule

[covufan]

Kinda fun reading the history of results of this challenge...

http://www.mvc-sports.com/mbasketball/news/2015-16/8509/mountain-west-mvc-challenge-series/#.WRs1_usrInQ


Too bad Hawaii is only a football-affiliate to the Valley...

At first this confused me - I think you meant Hawaii is only a football-affiliate to the Mountain West Conference.

I didn't think that Hawaii had dropped down to FCS. 

[talksalot]

I think you meant Hawaii is only a football-affiliate to the Mountain West Conference.

yeh, I meant that we would never draw them in the "Challenge" competition on the court...  shucks.

[EddieCabot]

We're not even officially in the Valley yet, and they've already landed us one more quality non-conference home game than the HL ever did. I'm gonna love Valpo being in this league. 

Agreed.  The Horizon definitely dropped the ball in helping teams like Valpo get better non-conference games.  Valpo was the marquee program and they did nothing to help them, and with the move to MCM, actually prevented them from getting to the NCAA tournament.  Time to move on.

Just wondering, Does the Big East help pay for Butler's Women's Tennis team playing a match at Providence?

I have no idea on your question, but was just wondering if when the MVC requires a team to travel to the west coast for this challenge if they would help defer the travel costs.  I guess MVC teams are free to schedule a 2nd game in the area on their own to make the trip worthwhile.  Similar to some of the discussion of Valpo scheduling a 2nd west coast game if they need to return the Santa Clara game from last season.  That would make some sense, at least to me.

[a3uge]

We're not even officially in the Valley yet, and they've already landed us one more quality non-conference home game than the HL ever did. I'm gonna love Valpo being in this league. 

Agreed.  The Horizon definitely dropped the ball in helping teams like Valpo get better non-conference games.  Valpo was the marquee program and they did nothing to help them, and with the move to MCM, actually prevented them from getting to the NCAA tournament.  Time to move on.

Just wondering, Does the Big East help pay for Butler's Women's Tennis team playing a match at Providence?

I have no idea on your question, but was just wondering if when the MVC requires a team to travel to the west coast for this challenge if they would help defer the travel costs.  I guess MVC teams are free to schedule a 2nd game in the area on their own to make the trip worthwhile.  Similar to some of the discussion of Valpo scheduling a 2nd west coast game if they need to return the Santa Clara game from last season.  That would make some sense, at least to me.

I looked through every MVC and MWC schedule last year, and nobody was able to turn that into a close 2-game trip. For example, Indiana State traveled to Utah State on a Saturday, and then was at home for a road game vs Butler.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/865923260717965312
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/865922675956490244
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/865922783003508739
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/865922881192177664
https://twitter.com/EnthusiAdams/status/865922940197580800

[IrishDawg]

Just because I was curious I took a look at the HL and MVC had for non-conference scheduling last year.

HL - 58.27% Home/Neutral, 44.88% Home, 41.73% Away
MVC (w/o Wichita State) - 73.21% Home/Neutral, 51.79% Home, 26.79% Away

Wichita State's split was 92.31% Home/Neutral, 61.54% Home, 7.69% Away

There are outliers in there, however.  Valpo for instance was 76.92% Home/Neutral, 61.54% Home, 23.08% Away.  Oakland was similar at 84.62% Home/Neutral, 61.54% Home, 16.38% Away.  Valpo had one more away game, while Oakland's was on a neutral floor.  The WCC is similar as well:

WCC - 79.51% Home/Neutral, 59.84% Home, 20.49% Away

But the big name programs in that league (Gonzaga, St. Mary's, BYU), their combined split was 94.44% Home/Neutral, 66.67% Home, 5.56% (2 games) Away.

Moral of the story is that if you're a really good program, even if you're in a mid-major conference, you're going to get invited to neutral site tourneys and be able to play more games at home.  It takes time and being consistently good to get to that point (and I don't deny that it's now probably harder to get to that point than before), but it can happen.

[VULB#62]

Nice analysis and the moral of the story is spot on, IMO.

[VU2014]

Thoughts? He was trying to predict Valpo's OOC schedule next season.

https://twitter.com/happeninghoops/status/866335678124220416

[historyman]

Quote (selected)
Bradley, Northern Iowa, Illinois St?

Something to keep in mind is that we recruit a lot of the same players so its really tough to swallow a loss to these schools. Thats one reason I'm guessing its tough to schedule them.

Not anymore!

[historyman]

We need a home and home with Illinois State, if possible. 

Gauranteed.

[historyman]

Now only if we could convince Scott to schedule us for a home & away game. Any possibility of that now that Bryce left the program?

[covufan]

We need a home and home with Illinois State, if possible. 

Gauranteed.

Okay, maybe we now need a home and home with Oakland (in a few years)!

[bigmosmithfan1]

Look, I like Greg Kampe as much as the next guy, and I'm fine with scheduling Oakland at some point in the future. But I fail to see why we are treating this as some unbreakable rivalry that has to happen right away. Why don't we first see if being in a higher profile conference might open up some doors for us first and give us a crack at some new opponents that might not have been willing to schedule us before?

Again, don't get me wrong -- I respect the program OU has built, and give me Oakland in a heartbeat instead of OOC games against IPFW, Coppin State, Chicago State, or non-D1s. I just don't get the thinking that it's a sacrosanct rivalry that needs to be played year in and year out and automatically needs to be accounted for on next year's slate (unless the HL's giving us a discount on our exit fee to do so). It's a decent and modestly-interesting conference series because of all the close games the two schools played in the Mid-Con and HL over the past decade or so, but really, it's not *that* big of a deal long-term. Conference implications are what gave the series its heat. I could not have been less interested in the few non-conference games we played against them after we left for the HL and they remained in the Summit.

[4throwfan]

Bigmosmith, I don't think it's a sanctified rivalry, but there is a very key strategic reason to schedule them for home and home: their W/L record will likely help our RPI much better than anyone else that we can reasonably get.  It is a good bet that they will be a consistent 20-10.  Since opponents' W/L is 50% of RPI, having Oakland's 20-10 record in our calculation would be a great benefit for us.

[VU2014]

Look, I like Greg Kampe as much as the next guy, and I'm fine with scheduling Oakland at some point in the future. But I fail to see why we are treating this as some unbreakable rivalry that has to happen right away. Why don't we first see if being in a higher profile conference might open up some doors for us first and give us a crack at some new opponents that might not have been willing to schedule us before?

Again, don't get me wrong -- I respect the program OU has built, and give me Oakland in a heartbeat instead of OOC games against IPFW, Coppin State, Chicago State, or non-D1s. I just don't get the thinking that it's a sacrosanct rivalry that needs to be played year in and year out and automatically needs to be accounted for on next year's slate (unless the HL's giving us a discount on our exit fee to do so). It's a decent and modestly-interesting conference series because of all the close games the two schools played in the Mid-Con and HL over the past decade or so, but really, it's not *that* big of a deal long-term. Conference implications are what gave the series its heat. I could not have been less interested in the few non-conference games we played against them after we left for the HL and they remained in the Summit.

100% agree. I enjoyed the OU rivalry the last few years after Kampe landed a few of those talented High major transfers + Kay Felder, when they weren't a bad team and started to get better (won't miss Martez Walkers attitude/show boating though...). I'd like to play them again down the road but it may not be realistic to schedule this season because its pretty late in the game for OOC scheduling, because them and us already have games on the books for next season and probably tough to make each others schedules work. As long as OU is a good opponent (RPI boost or at the very least not an RPI drag then I'd like play them).

I just want the OOC games like the Chicago State games to stop... not saying we're above playing those teams but they have been particularly bad offer no challenge or fan interest in those games and could hurt our RPI and strength of schedule. I know Coach Gore mentioned on Paul's podcast that he has a lot of respect for their program and their head coach but I sort of hope we take a break from playing them and sort of play them as a "last resort" if we need a home game. We've played them quite a bit the last few years and it makes sense from the standpoint that we are short bus ride away from them and all.

Scheduling is a tough gig as a mid-major. We have some good ones next year with Purdue and Northwestern.

[VULB#62]

Remember, with Valpo exiting the HL, OU has 2 additional OOC games slots to fill.  And who the heck knows what else is in the pipeline for VU at this point other than what has already been released piecemeal.  In the past, we wound up at the end having to schedule non-D-I teams as fillers and breathers.  Not anymore.

[SanityLost17]

Look, I like Greg Kampe as much as the next guy, and I'm fine with scheduling Oakland at some point in the future. But I fail to see why we are treating this as some unbreakable rivalry that has to happen right away. Why don't we first see if being in a higher profile conference might open up some doors for us first and give us a crack at some new opponents that might not have been willing to schedule us before?

Again, don't get me wrong -- I respect the program OU has built, and give me Oakland in a heartbeat instead of OOC games against IPFW, Coppin State, Chicago State, or non-D1s. I just don't get the thinking that it's a sacrosanct rivalry that needs to be played year in and year out and automatically needs to be accounted for on next year's slate (unless the HL's giving us a discount on our exit fee to do so). It's a decent and modestly-interesting conference series because of all the close games the two schools played in the Mid-Con and HL over the past decade or so, but really, it's not *that* big of a deal long-term. Conference implications are what gave the series its heat. I could not have been less interested in the few non-conference games we played against them after we left for the HL and they remained in the Summit.

Asses+Seats 

That is why you schedule Oakland.  It is good for business. 

[a3uge]

Bigmosmith, I don't think it's a sanctified rivalry, but there is a very key strategic reason to schedule them for home and home: their W/L record will likely help our RPI much better than anyone else that we can reasonably get.  It is a good bet that they will be a consistent 20-10.  Since opponents' W/L is 50% of RPI, having Oakland's 20-10 record in our calculation would be a great benefit for us.

It depends on Oakland's​ schedule. For years, Oakland played an absurd OOC schedule that pushed them below .500 before the regular season. Then, last year they played an overly easy schedule that kept them out of the top 100 RPI. I think there's a sweet spot in there that they haven't mastered yet.

The trick is to schedule hard games on the road vs top 50 RPI teams, and avoid the 100-150 games. Due to the selection committee's insistince on gating RPIs at round numbers, there's not much gain in winning against a 101 RPI team vs 175 RPI team. The committee also doesn't care about mid major's RPIs vs power conference RPIs when it comes to at large bids anyways, so you might as well schedule 3 or 4 really difficult teams and schedule cupcakes for the rest. I think the above average Ball State - 2015 road game is what gets good mid majors in trouble. It's tricky to predict which teams are going to be good a few years into the future, but you might not see Valpo schedule those 75 RPI range teams on the road.

[4throwfan]

a3uge, I agree that it all depends on OU scheduling, but given their recent trend away from buy-in OOC scheduling, W/L record going forward should be much better.  Here's the trend:

2013-14 - 13-20
2014-15 - 16-17
2015-16 - 23-12
2016-17 - 25-9

If, for the next two years, OU maintains its quality from the last two years, then it is a positive on VU RPI regardless of OU's OOC.  OOC counts for only 25%.  I'm not ignoring that the fact that an OU W/L of 20-10 with creampuffs gives OU a terrible RPI, which doesn't help VU from the standpoint of wins against high RPI teams, but in an imperfect world, VU must take what it can get.  And there simply aren't other teams out there that will give a home-and-home, and will also add to VU's resume.  VU simply can't get that on the schedule for all 10 or so home games, so why not take what they can get.

[VU2014]

Look, I like Greg Kampe as much as the next guy, and I'm fine with scheduling Oakland at some point in the future. But I fail to see why we are treating this as some unbreakable rivalry that has to happen right away. Why don't we first see if being in a higher profile conference might open up some doors for us first and give us a crack at some new opponents that might not have been willing to schedule us before?

Again, don't get me wrong -- I respect the program OU has built, and give me Oakland in a heartbeat instead of OOC games against IPFW, Coppin State, Chicago State, or non-D1s. I just don't get the thinking that it's a sacrosanct rivalry that needs to be played year in and year out and automatically needs to be accounted for on next year's slate (unless the HL's giving us a discount on our exit fee to do so). It's a decent and modestly-interesting conference series because of all the close games the two schools played in the Mid-Con and HL over the past decade or so, but really, it's not *that* big of a deal long-term. Conference implications are what gave the series its heat. I could not have been less interested in the few non-conference games we played against them after we left for the HL and they remained in the Summit.

Asses+Seats 

That is why you schedule Oakland.  It is good for business. 

But will playing Oakland really put butts in the seats if we aren't conference rivals with them and if their having a downturn after next season?

I'm for continuing play them down the road but I'm not sure they be as big of a draw now that we aren't going to conference rivals anymore.

[VU2014]

a3uge, I agree that it all depends on OU scheduling, but given their recent trend away from buy-in OOC scheduling, W/L record going forward should be much better.  Here's the trend:

2013-14 - 13-20
2014-15 - 16-17
2015-16 - 23-12
2016-17 - 25-9

If, for the next two years, OU maintains its quality from the last two years, then it is a positive on VU RPI regardless of OU's OOC.  OOC counts for only 25%.  I'm not ignoring that the fact that an OU W/L of 20-10 with creampuffs gives OU a terrible RPI, which doesn't help VU from the standpoint of wins against high RPI teams, but in an imperfect world, VU must take what it can get.  And there simply aren't other teams out there that will give a home-and-home, and will also add to VU's resume.  VU simply can't get that on the schedule for all 10 or so home games, so why not take what they can get.

When I look at that trend upward I think it has more to do with them picking up those impact Transfers more then their scheduling. Kampe took a few "risks" with some "questionable character" transfers that got into trouble at high-major schools and on the court it has paid off for their W-L record.

Lots of those kids (Kendrick Nunn, Martez Walker, Stevie Clark) are running out of eligibility after next season and along with guys like Jalen Hayes and Nick Daniels are going to be senior next season. It's Tourney or Bust for that Oakland team next season. Next season is going to be important for them and Kampe will need to hit on recruiting next season to replenish the roster.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Asses+Seats 

That is why you schedule Oakland.  It is good for business.

I think you vastly overestimate the appeal of that game to the fanbase, especially the casual fans. The attendance of those matchups when the game has not had conference title implications? Not so hot.

Again, I'm not saying "never," just that we should see if we can get some new blood on the schedule first.

[4throwfan]

Just noticed that I misused my acronyms in the post above.  I meant to say that OU's SOS (meaning its opponents' W/L) only accounts for 25% of VU RPI.  It was wrong of me to say that OU's OOC counts for 25%.  Apologies for any confusion, I'll try to be more careful.

[jtm]

TheD1Docket Twitter page claims Valpo is heading to the Savannah Invitational on November 24-25, along with Kent State, UNCW, and Loyola (IL) (yeah...). Can anyone corroborate this? I haven't been able to find any other source referencing Valpo heading to Savannah. I hope it is true, though. Savannah may be my favorite city in the country, and is a short drive for me from Columbia, SC.

As he mentions, because Loyola (IL) is apparently in the event, Valpo's new conference affiliation could complicate the matter.

[VU2014]

TheD1Docket Twitter page claims Valpo is heading to the Savannah Invitational on November 24-25, along with Kent State, UNCW, and Loyola (IL) (yeah...). Can anyone corroborate this? I haven't been able to find any other source referencing Valpo heading to Savannah. I hope it is true, though. Savannah may be my favorite city in the country, and is a short drive for me from Columbia, SC.

As he mentions, because Loyola (IL) is apparently in the event, Valpo's new conference affiliation could complicate the matter.

Yeah that may be a problem. Has there ever been a case of conference opponents playing each other in Non-Conference Neutral site tournaments? I can't remember that ever happening.

I wonder if Valpo is going to be the team that is forced to exit the Tournament because we're the brand new team to the conference. Hopefully it all works out and they just put us on different ends of the tournament.