NCAA College Basketball Talk

[VU2014]

Patrick Ewing is going to be the next Head Coach of Georgetown.

https://twitter.com/ESPNU/status/848967058935230464

[VULB#62]

BIG name.  But can he recruit and coach college kids?  I don't believe he has any head coaching experience.

Interesting observations from the Washington Post....

"The Georgetown legend came to an agreement to succeed John Thompson III as the program's head coach after meeting with school officials in Washington Monday. Ewing, 54, was in town with the Charlotte Hornets, for whom he currently works as associate head coach.

The Hornets play the Washington Wizards Tuesday night at Verizon Center, but Ewing is expected to leave the job in short order to begin the process of filling out his staff at Georgetown, as he attempts to revive the stagnant program he helped build into a national power as a player 30-plus years ago.

The hire is a sign that John Thompson II remains a powerful force within the school. There was little doubt Ewing would take this job if he didn't have the blessing of the elder Thompson, for whom he played during a collegiate career that included three Final Fours – including the 1984 national championship – from 1982-85. Ewing went on to a Hall of Fame NBA career once the New York Knicks made him the top overall pick in the 1985 NBA draft.

Ewing's son, Patrick Ewing Jr., served on John Thompson III's staff as an assistant coach the last two seasons.

For the past 15 years, the elder Ewing has become a well-respected NBA assistant, serving on the staffs of Jeff and Stan Van Gundy with the Houston Rockets and Orlando Magic before joining Clifford's staff in Charlotte. He's been interviewed for multiple NBA jobs, including for the Sacramento Kings vacancy last summer."

[valpo84]

Ewing just hasn't been given the opportunity.  Bill Cartwright found the same issue when he was looking to become a head coach.  Is there a big guy bias?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-big-men-usually-cant-coach-basketball-1402007079?KEYWORDS=chris+herring

[bbtds]

Did anyone feel, as I did, that Mark Few's comment at the conclusion of the National Championship game was meant as a knock on North Carolina and the NCAA? He said his players were true students and athletes. The opposite could be concluded about the opposition.

[usc4valpo]

The second half was certainly not a thing of beauty. Both teams shot around 35 percent, although the aggressive defense can attest to test. I felt bad for Karnowski who struggled offensively last night.

What will happen to UNC after the investigations are concluded?

[VULB#62]

Did anyone feel, as I did, that Mark Few's comment at the conclusion of the National Championship game was meant as a knock on North Carolina and the NCAA? He said his players were true students and athletes. The opposite could be concluded about the opposition.

Yeah, the final result:  Academic Frauds 71 Good Guys 65   

USAToday Headline:  "Redemption: NC Takes Down Gonzaga."  Redemption?  Redemption! Redemption is fessing up to widespread cheating by UNC athletes under the  hands-off policies of the UNC administration -- and the redemption I'm talking about is for everyone they played, not UNC -- i.e., vacated UNC wins (including this one).  They shouldn't have even been in the tournament.   

Gee, do you suppose this whole mess is gonna embolden the rest of the P5/6 to do the same thing knowing that maybe, just maybe, a slap on the wrist might, but probably won't, be the only consequences?  But if a mid-major has even one athlete cheat or do something contrary to the NCAA bible -- throw the damn book at him.  Gotta come back to Tark's quote (updated):  "The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky North Carolina that they're going to give Cleveland State another year of probation."  Well, at least the HL gets a little exposure.

BTW, glad to hear Emmert get booed when introduced prior to the awarding of the trophy.

The second half was certainly not a thing of beauty. Both teams shot around 35 percent, although the aggressive defense can attest to test. I felt bad for Karnowski who struggled offensively last night.

What will happen to UNC after the investigations are concluded?

That was a rhetorical question, right?  The answer is NUTHIN.

[oklahomamick]

How has Gonzaga been able to keep Few?  Does anyone know anything about his contract?   

[usc4valpo]

Loyalty, his faith is compatible to Gonzaga, living in beautiful Spokane, probably job security.

[VU2014]

How has Gonzaga been able to keep Few?  Does anyone know anything about his contract?   

Mark Few has talked about how his Dad was a pastor and stayed at the church for 30-40 years and says he never left because he was happy. So he has pretty much said you can't put a number on happiness.

Like, usc4valpo said Loyalty. Hard to put a number on that. Mark Few will never get fired from that job ever. He's making a $1.5M which is a big number but not close to what the other elite coaches make. He knows if he left for a Kansas or something and was making $3-4M and he wasn't getting off to get a quick start and performing up to expectations then he'd be on the hot seat immediately.

Look at Shaka Smart. He left VCU for Texas and Smart is already on the hot seat down there only after 2 years. Lots of unhappy boosters/fans down there. If Shaka would have stayed at VCU he probably could have been the "king" of that school for another 20-30 years as long as they continue getting to Sweet 16s there. He had resource he could have ever wanted at VCU also. They built him new facilities and had a very faithful fan base.

Sometimes its hard to put a number on Loyalty and Happiness, especially when you are still making a very good living at $1.5M per year.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Look at Shaka Smart. He left VCU for Texas and Smart is already on the hot seat down there only after 2 years. Lots of unhappy boosters/fans down there. If Shaka would have stayed at VCU he probably could have been the "king" of that school for another 20-30 years as long as they continue getting to Sweet 16s there. He had resource he could have ever wanted at VCU also. They built him new facilities and had a very faithful fan base.

Sometimes its hard to put a number on Loyalty and Happiness, especially when you are still making a very good living at $1.5M per year.

This is absolutely true - as someone who once made a career move based on salary and ended up regretting it, I can vouch for this principle.

That said, on the flipside, this is a different ball of wax. Coaches have a limited window to make money. Making a move to a P5 job is setting your children and heck, your grandchildren, up financially for life. Further, even if you get canned in 3 years, you still leave with that money, and a guy like Smart is still young enough to be in demand for any number of good mid-major openings where you can "find your happy place" while sitting on a giant pile of money. Unless you were an absolute disaster in the P5 job, you'll almost always have an opportunity to return to the midmajor level.

Look, if Valpo couldn't keep a hometown guy/alum/former player who is likely the person most indelibly linked to the school in people's minds, who also happens to be independently wealthy from his NBA playing days, to turn down the immense financial and on-the-court benefits of a P5 job, what chance does any other midmajor have of doing the same?

(Or to use a more recent example, Archie Miller was making seven figures at Dayton, where they operate as a major program in every way - fan support, travel, facilities, NCAA appearances - and he still bolted for IU the second they came calling).

[valpo64]

and when Tom Crean was hired at IU, Few declined to talk to IU about the vacancy.  You hit the nail on the head...that's loyalty while striving for excellence and contentment in one's work.

[valpo84]

Chris Mack made a great decision!  Georgetown isn't what it was and that's a lateral move.  Chris is a Cincy kid. Went to E'ville then transferred back to X. 

This actually raises a terrific off-season discussion question -- it comes from a statement Clark Kellogg made during the South Carolina/Gonzaga game Saturday on the radio broadcast.  He was talking about blue-blood programs--the historically dominant programs.  Programs that stand the test of time no matter, generally, who is coaching.  He rattled off as blue bloods -- Kansas, Kentucky, Duke and UNC and then also added UCLA.  My challenge meter went off when he said UCLA.  Is a UCLA a blue blood?  He rejected as a blue blood UConn (Jim Calhoun had been interviewed just before the blue blood statement) because it had only been good the past 20-25 years.  Which led to my question about UCLA.  Before Wooden, UCLA wasn't a power (like Kentucky and Kansas) and after Wooden, they have not been much of a dominant program (last Final Four 2008 (3-year run), 1995 before that, last championship 1995 (and 1975 before that)) or are they still a blue blood?  They have had a parade of coaches since Wooden starting with former Valpo coach Gene Bartow through today's Alford.  Alford may be bringing them back to prominence after 10 tough years, but when you see UCLA does the current generation shrug and say oh they're ok? So for the discussion:

1.  Are there others besides UK, KU, Duke and UNC you include as blue bloods?  I would include Louisville and maybe Indiana. Another one might be Arizona?

2.  What happens to programs that are coach dependent on their "lofty" status?  How many generations of dominant basketball makes a program a blue blood?  Syracuse is an example of a coach-dependent program.  When Boeheim retires, what happens?  Examples of programs that may have been blue bloods but were more coach-dependent include DePaul, Georgetown, UNLV.  We previously listed Duke as a blue blood, is it really a coach-dependent program or a blue blood?  What happens when K retires?  Is there a next coach that keeps "Duke is Duke?"  Although nowhere near a blue blood, Valpo has had successes since 1995 and through this past year been coach/family-dependent.  Will it continue as consistently quality program?  Gonzaga has survived a generation with Munson to Few.  Butler and X have gone through a generation of great basketball moving through a series of coaches (X-Gillen, Prosser, Matta, Miller and now Mack).  Interestingly, when Joe B Hall retired at UK, the program had its ups and downs til Calipari came (Sutton (up and then problems), Pitino up, Tubby mediocre, Gillispie (down and issues)).

Have fun.

[bigmosmithfan1]

The classification of "blue bloods" is largely a media creation -- for example, if long periods of sustained success matter, than UConn, Louisville and Syracuse fit the bill way better than Indiana and UCLA do.

UCLA has had a ton of success historically, but yeah, they've been lacking in tourney success the past decade. I think the fact that they still have the most national titles and are the only "blue blood" out West plays a huge role there. Arizona I put more into the category of, say, a Maryland: perennial top 15-20 team, certainly capable of winning it all in a given year, but lacking the #s of Final Fours and titles to crash that "elite" club.

If I was making a current list of "blue bloods" it'd be Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Michigan State, and UConn. Next tier is Louisville, Kansas, Cuse, UCLA and maybe Florida/Wisconsin. UConn obviously is in an odd time - we need to see if their recent struggles are an aberration or the result of them suffering from being in the AAC and not able to recruit at the national level anymore. But they're still just three years removed from their 4th national championship and 5th Final Four in 15 years.

Kansas is an interesting case -- if not for a swallowed whistle at the end of their elite 8 game vs. Davidson and a missed Derrick Rose FT, they're a lot closer to Indiana right now, staring at 30 years without a title. (The main difference is that KU has consistently gone to Final Fours in the meantime).

I get the "coach-driven" argument against Cuse -- that said, that can work in different directions. I mean, by that logic, wouldn't IU fall under that category?

Lastly, it shows where Kentucky lives in that a coach who won a national championship for them is considered "mediocre." Any other program, he'd have the arena or at least the practice facility named after him.

[usc4valpo]

In reality, what has Indiana done since 87. If you make that argument then UCLA is a blueblood. I may put Michigan state on the list

[bigmosmithfan1]

Smart is still young enough to be in demand for any number of good mid-major openings where you can "find your happy place" while sitting on a giant pile of money. Unless you were an absolute disaster in the P5 job, you'll almost always have an opportunity to return to the midmajor level.

And... to underscore this point, John Groce is on the verge of heading back to the MAC and getting the Akron job. So for a five-year stint in Champaign that ended with his firing, he ends up in no worse position than when he left, only he's $10 million richer. Again, it's a no-brainer for a midmajor coach to move up when they have the chance these days.

[VU2624]

The classification of "blue bloods" is largely a media creation -- for example, if long periods of sustained success matter, than UConn, Louisville and Syracuse fit the bill way better than Indiana and UCLA do. UCLA has had a ton of success historically, but yeah, they've been lacking in tourney success the past decade. I think the fact that they still have the most national titles and are the only "blue blood" out West plays a huge role there. Arizona I put more into the category of, say, a Maryland: perennial top 15-20 team, certainly capable of winning it all in a given year, but lacking the #s of Final Fours and titles to crash that "elite" club. If I was making a current list of "blue bloods" it'd be Kentucky, UNC, Duke, Michigan State, and UConn. Next tier is Louisville, Kansas, Cuse, UCLA and maybe Florida/Wisconsin. UConn obviously is in an odd time - we need to see if their recent struggles are an aberration or the result of them suffering from being in the AAC and not able to recruit at the national level anymore. But they're still just three years removed from their 4th national championship and 5th Final Four in 15 years. Kansas is an interesting case -- if not for a swallowed whistle at the end of their elite 8 game vs. Davidson and a missed Derrick Rose FT, they're a lot closer to Indiana right now, staring at 30 years without a title. (The main difference is that KU has consistently gone to Final Fours in the meantime). I get the "coach-driven" argument against Cuse -- that said, that can work in different directions. I mean, by that logic, wouldn't IU fall under that category? Lastly, it shows where Kentucky lives in that a coach who won a national championship for them is considered "mediocre." Any other program, he'd have the arena or at least the practice facility named after him.

You can apply the coach driven angle to a great degree to the Mighty Duke Blue Devils as well. They had some small success under Bucky Waters and Bill Foster directly prior to Coach K (particularly the Spanarkel's). Syracuse's success actually precedes that although it hasn't been as good a Duke's since the two current coaches took over.

[StlVUFan]

USAToday Headline:  "Redemption: NC Takes Down Gonzaga."  Redemption?  Redemption! Redemption is fessing up to widespread cheating by UNC athletes under the  hands-off policies of the UNC administration -- and the redemption I'm talking about is for everyone they played, not UNC -- i.e., vacated UNC wins (including this one).  They shouldn't have even been in the tournament.

Um, they lost the title last year on a buzzer beater.  There are other possible meanings for redemption.

[VULB#62]

No doubt that was the intension of the article (poor NC, they lost on a buzzer beater last year - they are so deserving this year), however, I chose to spin it my way because of what UNC represents in the grand scheme of the NCAA's and the P5's lack of integrity. 

[FieldGoodie05]

No doubt that was the intension of the article (poor NC, they lost on a buzzer beater last year - they are so deserving this year), however, I chose to spin it my way because of what UNC represents in the grand scheme of the NCAA's and the P5's lack of integrity.

I'm on board with you here.

[FWalum]

No doubt that was the intension of the article (poor NC, they lost on a buzzer beater last year - they are so deserving this year), however, I chose to spin it my way because of what UNC represents in the grand scheme of the NCAA's and the P5's lack of integrity.

Well said. I have to think how the media fawns over the teams that only get into the dance every so often telling us what a big deal this is for them, and it is... but then there are the programs that are in it every year like UNC who in this case has been aided by systemic cheating since the late 1980's. How many times has a DESERVING program, team and student athletes been denied the opportunity to participate in the tournament while this juggernaut of a program has blatantly defied the rules. Some Illinois State's players may never have the experience of the tournament. I guess they didn't deserve an opportunity, unlike UNC.

[VU2014]

Have you guys heard about the drama happening at the University of Illinois? UofI just lost a 5-star recruit who already signed his letter of intent. Mizzou hired Cuonzo Martin and he started actively recruiting another schools sign recruit!! What a dirtbag! That is the lowest of the low in terms of College Recruiting.

Once a kid has signed his letter of intent you have some nerve to recruit that kid. U of I went to through a coaching change but the kid reaffirmed his commitment to the new coach but suddenly Cuonzo comes to his home town (also his hometown) claiming he was just visiting his sister/recruiting and suddenly the next week the kid decommits to U of I and is scheduling a visit to Mizzou.

I have no problem with kids having a change of heart, especially after coaching changes but when coaches do things like this its completely classless.

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/849676957788844032
https://twitter.com/Dave_Matter/status/843196752366882818
https://twitter.com/WCIA3Bret/status/846805831509295106

[vu84v2]

No comparison between Kansas and IU as to which are blue bloods. People have a variety of opinions about its NCAA tournament performance, but Kansas has won 13 straight regular season conference titles in a Power 6 conference.

Regarding good mid-majors keeping their coaches, it would seem that coaches like Mark Few are the exception. Given that, universities need to build a program independent of the coach that is focused on quality, values, type of player, etc. When a coach leaves, you should (a) try to have a viable succession candidate ready and (b) always hire related to your program values instead of hiring a name coach and giving him too much discretion. Some of you may hate Butler, but frankly this is a big reason why Butler has consistently been successful.

[VU2014]

LaVar Ball saying LaVar Ball things...
https://twitter.com/CBSSportsCBB/status/850168961614401538

[VULB#62]

Tell that to Gonzaga.

LaVar is an a$$. Unfortunately he is outlandish enough to get media coverage.  I'd be embarrassed to be his sons.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/CBTonNBC/status/855098148343226368
https://twitter.com/HoopvilleAdam/status/855108188533903360

http://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2017/04/20/ncaa-considering-significant-changes-to-the-college-basketball-calendar/

NCAA considering significant changes to the college basketball calendar

By Rob DausterApr 20, 2017, 12:37 PM EDT

The fact that college basketball is one of the only sports without a recognizable and celebrated opening day has been an issue that has bugged critics of the sport for a long time.

Change could be on the way.

The Division I Men's Basketball Oversight Committee discussed the potential for changing the start date for college basketball games, moving it up from the second Friday in November to the Tuesday before the second Friday in November; three days earlier.

"The men's college basketball community has been discussing the possibility of establishing a uniform start date for the sport," the NCAA wrote in a statement. "Many believe it can create a less compressed schedule, particularly for nonconference games, which they believe would benefit student-athlete well-being by providing more time for rest and recovery."

It's also worth noting that the committee is considering creating a mandatory mid-season break. "Committee members also discussed standardizing the playing season to 21 weeks with a mandatory three- or four-day break for the student-athletes at some point during their school's winter vacation period," the NCAA said.

The real story, however, is the NCAA's effort to create a college basketball opening day. It would be a nice change, particularly if the games are played midweek, but the bigger issue would be putting together games that would actually make opening night worth watching. As it currently stands, the de-facto starting point for the college basketball season is the Champions Classic, a showcase that features four of the biggest brands in the sport playing a double-header that caps a 24-hour college basketball marathon. It's game like that — Duke vs. Kentucky, Kansas vs. Michigan State, North Carolina vs. Indiana, etc. — that need to be played on opening night to drive interest.

If all we end up getting is a bunch of high-major programs beating the hell out of overmatched mid-major teams no one cares about, the day that season starts isn't going to matter.

Because no one is going to care.