NCAA College Basketball Talk

[Just Sayin]

It is about race. You don't get it.  Read the article by Jason. He is an angry black man and his actions were thuggish don't you think? Pointing that out is a racist comment? 

Jason Whitlock is a writer, much like Candace Owens, who get their attention from taking the viewpoint that a substantial number of white people who not think a black person would and thus get a great deal of "see....even the black person agrees with me!" love in these types of cases.

Anyone is free to read and react to whoever they wish but we also need to be careful of what the motive is.

So you think Whitlock and Owen are doing schtick to give white people the opportunity to say "even a black person agrees with me.? lol Asinine.

They are both conservatives to the bone and simply have a different (not a white) point of view and they express themselves well much to the chagrin of most black people who are on the liberal plantation and have a monolithic view of race (from a perpetual victim point of view) and government (their mommy and daddy.)

They can think for themselves which you don't appear to give them credit for being able to do.

[oklahomamick]

Why were you expecting only a 5 game suspension?  When I saw 5, and then allowed to coach in the conference tourney and any post season tournament I was surprised. 

I was expecting more.  I mean Howard is supposed to be a leader of young men.  He's getting paid millions.  This isn't his first time. 

How would Valpo handle it if their coach did that? 

[Just Sayin]

Why were you expecting only a 5 game suspension?  When I saw 5, and then allowed to coach in the conference tourney and any post season tournament I was surprised. 

I was expecting more.  I mean Howard is supposed to be a leader of young men.  He's getting paid millions.  This isn't his first time. 

How would Valpo handle it if their coach did that?

Probably the same way if the coach were black. If not, they would fire the coach immediately like any reasonable and responsible organization would do.

[vu84v2]

You make an argument that minority college basketball coaches (who are mostly black) are 'advantaged' because of their race. Data disagrees with this. For the 12 major conferences from the 2003-2004 season to the 2019-2020 season, minority coaches were about 25-30% more likely than White coaches to be dismissed after controlling for many factors including performance, talent, prestige when hired, spending, conference strength, and year.  They are also more likely than similar White coaches to be dismissed when spending is lower, conference strength is weaker, they have developed minimal prestige, or when they have initiated strategic change. To say that 'wokeness' has somehow caused Black coaches to be retained when White coaches would have been fired is not true.

[Just Sayin]

You make an argument that minority college basketball coaches (who are mostly black) are 'advantaged' because of their race. Data disagrees with this. For the 12 major conferences from the 2003-2004 season to the 2019-2020 season, minority coaches were about 25-30% more likely than White coaches to be dismissed after controlling for many factors including performance, talent, prestige when hired, spending, conference strength, and year.  They are also more likely than similar White coaches to be dismissed when spending is lower, conference strength is weaker, they have developed minimal prestige, or when they have initiated strategic change. To say that 'wokeness' has somehow caused Black coaches to be retained when White coaches would have been fired is not true.

I made no such argument. Straw man. Feel free to whack it a few times if it makes you feel better. You created it.

[JD24]

It is about race. You don't get it.  Read the article by Jason. He is an angry black man and his actions were thuggish don't you think? Pointing that out is a racist comment? 

Jason Whitlock is a writer, much like Candace Owens, who get their attention from taking the viewpoint that a substantial number of white people who not think a black person would and thus get a great deal of "see....even the black person agrees with me!" love in these types of cases. Anyone is free to read and react to whoever they wish but we also need to be careful of what the motive is.

So you think Whitlock and Owen are doing schtick to give white people the opportunity to say "even a black person agrees with me.? lol Asinine. They are both conservatives to the bone and simply have a different (not a white) point of view and they express themselves well much to the chagrin of most black people who are on the liberal plantation and have a monolithic view of race (from a perpetual victim point of view) and government (their mommy and daddy.) They can think for themselves which you don't appear to give them credit for being able to do.

Sure they do.

[JD24]

Why were you expecting only a 5 game suspension?  When I saw 5, and then allowed to coach in the conference tourney and any post season tournament I was surprised. I was expecting more.  I mean Howard is supposed to be a leader of young men.  He's getting paid millions.  This isn't his first time. How would Valpo handle it if their coach did that?

Unlike justsayin', I believe the suspension is probably weighted because of who Juwan Howard is and not the color of his skin. Dealing with a school icon and icon of the sport is going to be more difficult that another guy who doesn't have the same background.

I don't opine that this is the right way to do it but it is the way it is.

[vu84v2]

You make an argument that minority college basketball coaches (who are mostly black) are 'advantaged' because of their race. Data disagrees with this. For the 12 major conferences from the 2003-2004 season to the 2019-2020 season, minority coaches were about 25-30% more likely than White coaches to be dismissed after controlling for many factors including performance, talent, prestige when hired, spending, conference strength, and year.  They are also more likely than similar White coaches to be dismissed when spending is lower, conference strength is weaker, they have developed minimal prestige, or when they have initiated strategic change. To say that 'wokeness' has somehow caused Black coaches to be retained when White coaches would have been fired is not true.

I made no such argument. Straw man. Feel free to whack it a few times if it makes you feel better. You created it.

You said that "it is about race" (see above).  What does that mean other than Black coaches are advantaged, because a White coach who did what Howard did would immediately be fired?

I agree wholeheartedly with justducky's comments that "you are undoubtably the most narrow and close minded individual with whom I have interacted (on this board)"

[Just Sayin]

Keep beating up on that straw man. lol

[VUGrad1314]

I told myself I was going to stay out of this topic but I can't anymore.   If you wanted to say that Juwan Howard showed weakness and failed in his role as a leader of young men that's one thing. If you wanted to say that he deserves to be fired and that anything less is getting off easy that's fine too.  All valid and fair points. The fact that he hasn't been fired offends your sensibilities and hurts your feelings. That's valid. I agree he should have been fired especially since he had a prior dustup with Mark Turgeon of Maryland. But as many on your side of the political aisle like to say: "Facts don't care about your feelings." Hurt feelings and offended sensibilities are not a substitute for an actual argument and that is all you have brought to the table with very little substance beyond that. Here's the thing: to insinuate without facts or basis that his punishment is light because he is black isn't just stupid and childish. It's utterly racist. Additionally it isn't even true. Here are some facts: In addition to the very prominent issues surrounding Bob Knight that were covered up for DECADES at IU Gregg Marshall got away with rampant player abuse for YEARS at Wichita State. He is white. Mike Rice got away with it as well at Rutgers for awhile before finally being fired. Also white. Jimmy Patsos got fired at Siena after getting away with player abuse for awhile. He is also white. Are you sensing a theme yet?  All of these coaches were white. All of them did the same thing or worse than Howard. None of them were immediately fired. So miss me with that "He would have been immediately fired if he were white BS. It's not true and is a strawman of your own making. You create a strawman and then decry others for creating a strawman. Seems pretty hypocritical to me but you do you I guess. Moreover it flies in the face of the usual state of the justice system in this country where black offenders often receive harsher sentences than white offenders for the same crime. This kind of crap that somehow occasionally finds its way onto this board along with the constant losing and poor performance from the program are huge reasons I don't post nearly as much on this board anymore. He is not getting treated any differently than most coaches who are caught doing something like this to be honest. It says far more about the state of college athletics and the way coaches are treated regardless of race than it does about race. As much as you want to make this a race issue and claim victimhood and persecution for yourself (which I thought was something you were against doing but what do I know?) it just doesn't wash when the facts are considered. If you want to have a discussion about the culture of collegiate athletics or athletics in general and why this kind of behavior is excused and tolerated to the degree that it is you will find much agreement and success making that argument because that is truly the issue here. This is a sports culture problem much more than it is a race problem. We can and should be having that conversation about the culture of athletics but take this race baiting crap to the Off Topic board where it belongs. The fact that we even have a section at all where people can post this kind of crap is embarrassing in and of itself for a basketball\sports forum but whatever. Free speech and all that I guess. But why can't you keep it to the off-topic board which gets far less traffic and not on the most visited frontward facing section: the basketball discussion board? Have any of you (especially those of you who insinuate that this is in any way a race issue when it clearly isn't outside of your own twisted worldview considered how this looks to a potential recruit or their family if they were to read this? Do you think that would make them want to come to Valpo or do you think it makes us look like a bunch of backward racists? What do you think a potential recruit is going to believe the values of this University are if they read this? That's not the University I attended. Those aren't the values my professors espoused and they should not be tolerated on this board. Take your bigotry and white fragility someplace else. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. This is going to be my final post for awhile on this board. Possibly forever if this is the kind of crap that is going to be posted repeatedly.

[usc4valpo]

We'll, you have Juwaan Howard, and rotate 180 degrees you have Matt Lottich.

On a positive note,  how are the USC Trojans doing? A huge 4 game stand coming up against Duckzilla, the Bears, Zona, and the Ruins...and once again the Big 10 looks overhyped and the conference of champions is getting no love. It is time to follow the wisdom of Walton baby!

[vu84v2]

I think that UCLA, USC and Arizona are all going to be among the strongest teams in this year's tourney. There does seem to be a pretty big falloff after that, which is likely reducing strength of schedule and causing computer rankings to be lower.

[JD24]

We'll, you have Juwaan Howard, and rotate 180 degrees you have Matt Lottich. On a positive note,  how are the USC Trojans doing? A huge 4 game stand coming up against Duckzilla, the Bears, Zona, and the Ruins...and once again the Big 10 looks overhyped and the conference of champions is getting no love. It is time to follow the wisdom of Walton baby!

Is Mobley back?

[usc4valpo]

yep

so if USC wins their next 4, you have to consider then Top 10- and at the minimum a 3 seed.

[VUGrad1314]

I know this is football related but still it's very interesting. I wonder what this will do to both conference's future autobids. I know this is similar to the ASUN-WAC agreement of this past year (speaking of which the ASUN really needs to get on the stick about adding some football members because I think the WAC has enough starting next year where they don't need the ASun. I wonder how these conferences will work to restore their autobids in football.

http://ovcsports.com/news/2022/2/22/big-south-conference-and-ovc-announce-football-agreement.aspx

[VUGrad1314]

NC A&T to the CAA. I'm a bit surprised by this considering that I heard although it was message board speculation and nothing concrete that one of the reasons A&T left the MEAC for the Big South was travel costs and now the travel costs are going to be much higher in the CAA.Hopefully Howard is next as they definitely deserve an invite. Logistically I think the next school will have to be a non football school to even things up in the CAA but maybe they have room for Howard assuming they want an invite. They do seem incredibly committed to the MEAC which is commendable but it would be a great step up for the Bison if they were able to move.

https://caasports.com/news/2022/2/22/football-caa-welcomes-north-carolina-a-t-as-newest-member-of-the-conference.aspx

[wh]

"Because he's black"? Are you kidding me? It's bad enough that thought entered your head. Doubly bad you thought it worthy of putting on here.

I agree they'll keep him, but they'll keep him because he wins and he's an alum. This is the kind of s*** that parents of recruits read on our board and say "No thanks".

To your point, this is a raindrop in an ocean compared to the potential damage caused to the program by the incessant trashing of our head coach by people on this very same board - calling for his resignation, praying for someone to buyout his contract, acting like the world came to an end when we found out his contract goes through 2025, comparing him unfavorably to every other coach in the league by name, labeling his offensive and defensive schemes as lacking creativity, accusing him of not knowing how to coach players up, blaming every player failure on the coach, questioning his starting and substitution patterns, accusing him of running players off, he coddles his favorites, he's too easy, he's not a player's coach, we should have done a national search, he's never been a head coach before albeit there are tons of successful first time head coaches in D-1 over the years, blaming him because we can't win when we have injured players, didn't he ever hear of "next man up" and other grade school-level cliches, even blaming him for having so many injured players every year, endless blah, blah, blah.

How ironic is it that two of Lottich's biggest trashers (you know who you are) are on record a few posts up feigning shock that someone would dare say something that might offend or alienate an outsider. Give me a freaking break. The hypocricy is absolutely mind blowing. Finally, let me make something perfectly clear. I'm glad politics has been removed from the board. I'm probably as guilty of abusing it an anyone on the board. I'm glad the tempation has been removed. I also fully agree that the Howard postgame incident was totally divisive and could be hurtful to many people. Having said that, the destructive nonsense on this board doesn't stop there, not by a longshot. In fact, it only starts there. This would be the perfect time for our resident coach and player trashers to stop posting poison for our recruits and potential recruits and their families to read.

[valpo04]

"Because he's black"? Are you kidding me? It's bad enough that thought entered your head. Doubly bad you thought it worthy of putting on here.

I agree they'll keep him, but they'll keep him because he wins and he's an alum. This is the kind of s*** that parents of recruits read on our board and say "No thanks".

To your point, this is a raindrop in an ocean compared to the potential damage caused to the program by the incessant trashing of our head coach by people on this very same board - calling for his resignation, praying for someone to buyout his contract, acting like the world came to an end when we found out his contract goes through 2025, comparing him unfavorably to every other coach in the league by name, labeling his offensive and defensive schemes as lacking creativity, accusing him of not knowing how to coach players up, blaming every player failure on the coach, questioning his starting and substitution patterns, accusing him of running players off, he coddles his favorites, he's too easy, he's not a player's coach, we should have done a national search, he's never been a head coach before albeit there are tons of successful first time head coaches in D-1 over the years, blaming him because we can't win when we have injured players, didn't he ever hear of "next man up" and other grade school-level cliches, even blaming him for having so many injured players every year, endless blah, blah, blah.

How ironic is it that two of Lottich's biggest trashers (you know who you are) are on record a few posts up feigning shock that someone would dare say something that might offend or alienate an outsider. Give me a freaking break. The hypocricy is absolutely mind blowing. Finally, let me make something perfectly clear. I'm glad politics has been removed from the board. I'm probably as guilty of abusing it an anyone on the board. I'm glad the tempation has been removed. I also fully agree that the Howard postgame incident for totally divisive and could be hurtful to many people. Having said that, the destructive nonsense on this board doesn't stop there, not by a longshot. In fact, it only starts there. This would be the perfect time for our resident coach and player trashers to stop posting poison for our recruits and potential recruits and their families to read.

Not to sidetrack this thread any further, but I do want to acknowledge a very good point here.

This isn't just about politics. Now is a perfect time for all of us to reflect and think about how we interact with each other, and how we can respectfully comment on the various topics discussed here. We can disagree or voice displeasure or what have you while maintaining a respectful and constructive tone.

We should always be mindful of the open and public nature of this forum. We should think about who may read it, and what they may take away from it. The last thing ANY of us want is to be perceived negatively, or to cast our school, and our support for Valpo in a negative light.

Now back to the topic...

[usc4valpo]

timeout - are you saying that we cannot be critical of actions made by Valparaiso University?

[valpo04]

timeout - are you saying that we cannot be critical of actions made by Valparaiso University?

Nope. I simply suggested...

Now is a perfect time for all of us to reflect and think about how we interact with each other, and how we can respectfully comment on the various topics discussed here. We can disagree or voice displeasure or what have you while maintaining a respectful and constructive tone.

[VUGrad1314]

There is a huge difference between questioning the direction of the program and outright racism or the defense thereof but whatever. If you're going to equate these two things that's wholly on you. But if the forum would be a better place if we only posted glowing opinions of Matt Lottich and the direction of the program then fine. Since I can't do that in good conscience because it would be lying I guess I'll have to be quiet and take a break until his tenure ends or he finally figures out how to win in this league whichever comes first. I genuinely don't want to hurt the program. Of course the inconsistency and struggle of the Lottich era hasn't done the program any favors but you're right. Infighting among a fanbase isn't a good look and I'm not going to contribute to it anymore. I wish Valpo only the best regardless of who is coaching but I'm out for awhile. Enjoy your echo chamber.

[usc4valpo]

Of course we want to respect each other, and the political crap was going overboard. Their are scunbag and clowns on both sides of the political spectrum. I just want to have a critical conversation and not have a board constantly drinking the brown and gold kool aid without addressing gaps. If I think Valpo is too cheap to make a move I think it is fair to say it. If Lottich is not up for the job it should be addressed.

Also, it is truly hurtful that this board is not giving USC and the conference of champions deserved respect. They are a conference proudly representing our country and has excelled in academics, athletics and advancements in making this world better. Why all the hate? I am going back my Manhattan Beach decored safe space!

[valpopal]

Jomboy always has a good breakdown of a situation:

[valpo04]

I firmly believe that in these situations, no disciplinary actions should ever be taken until after a mandatory review of a Jomboy breakdown.

[JD24]

Of course we want to respect each other, and the political crap was going overboard. Their are scunbag and clowns on both sides of the political spectrum. I just want to have a critical conversation and not have a board constantly drinking the brown and gold kool aid without addressing gaps. If I think Valpo is too cheap to make a move I think it is fair to say it. If Lottich is not up for the job it should be addressed. Also, it is truly hurtful that this board is not giving USC and the conference of champions deserved respect. They are a conference proudly representing our country and has excelled in academics, athletics and advancements in making this world better. Why all the hate? I am going back my Manhattan Beach decored safe space!

The Bruins took a header last night.