Transfers

[FieldGoodie05]

https://twitter.com/shaqcalhounnn/status/849400018104659968

Any Kiser news?

[bbtds]

The transfer issue goes both ways. Did Valpo cry for Nebraska or Oklahoma State when they lost transfers to us? If Kanter, Alstork, Edwards, Kolawole, Santos, etc. decided to transfer to Valpo how bad would we feel for GB, WSU, UIC, YSU, etc.?

[VU2014]

The transfer issue goes both ways. Did Valpo cry for Nebraska or Oklahoma State when they lost transfers to us? If Kanter, Alstork, Edwards, Kolawole, Santos, etc. decided to transfer to Valpo how bad would we feel for GB, WSU, UIC, YSU, etc.?

Definitely does but the Grad Transfer rule hurts the Mid-Majors WAY more then the Power Conferences. It is extremely tough for Mid-Majors to lose their stars who are suppose to be Seniors. That means you do all the investing and developing the first 3 years of the kids college career and then the Power Schools snatch them away when you have your best chance to make a run and have a good year. The pain is way more for the Mid Majors.

[bigmosmithfan1]

The transfer issue goes both ways. Did Valpo cry for Nebraska or Oklahoma State when they lost transfers to us?

What VU2014 said. There's a difference between a player leaving because of a coaching change or lack of playing time at a P5 vs. a star player at a midmajor being poached before their fourth year by a P5, after said midmajor has developed that player (or the P5 whiffed on the guy the first time around). The "up-transfer" trend is almost entirely due to the grad transfer rule and the way the P5 is now using/abusing it as a minor league development system.

[valpo84]

Grad transfer rule seemed to help Gonzaga, a mid-major, by adding Jordan Mathews from P5 California.  Another way of thinking about the grad transfer rule for mid-major stars is that it is similar to moving up from AA to AAA in the baseball minors.  That star would have had the chance to jump to the pros after soph or junior year if they had been at a P5.  By going up a "league" they have more exposure and chances to raise their draft stock (at least perception wise).  Why shouldn't a player move around?  Coaches do it and are paid a great deal to do it.  The player has only the opportunity to become more visible, fulfill their dream of playing for a "big school," and a hope for a long NCAA tourney run.  The success, however, of the grad transfer getting any of those is debatable.  Stat guys/gals should run a search of how many of those "stars" actually raised their draft stock and were drafted by the NBA.  It didn't work out for Brandon, but he did get to play for the Spartans and Izzo, become a part of that family and has had a nice foreign career.  I think about Ariens of UWM, he moved over to Wake Forest, played for Danny Manning, and was a role player, but ended up playing a year in the ACC, contributing some big 3s and getting the chance to play in the ACC Tourney and NCAA, thereby helping Wake erase the horrible memories of the Bzzzzzdelik years.   To me, that's a reason for the grad transfer rule.

[VU2014]

One of the Weathers brothers may be transferring to NKU. The 2-star brother Marcus.

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/849617280900227072

[VU2014]

Grad transfer rule seemed to help Gonzaga, a mid-major, by adding Jordan Mathews from P5 California. Another way of thinking about the grad transfer rule for mid-major stars is that it is similar to moving up from AA to AAA in the baseball minors.  That star would have had the chance to jump to the pros after soph or junior year if they had been at a P5.  By going up a "league" they have more exposure and chances to raise their draft stock (at least perception wise).  Why shouldn't a player move around?  Coaches do it and are paid a great deal to do it.  The player has only the opportunity to become more visible, fulfill their dream of playing for a "big school," and a hope for a long NCAA tourney run.  The success, however, of the grad transfer getting any of those is debatable.  Stat guys/gals should run a search of how many of those "stars" actually raised their draft stock and were drafted by the NBA.  It didn't work out for Brandon, but he did get to play for the Spartans and Izzo, become a part of that family and has had a nice foreign career.  I think about Ariens of UWM, he moved over to Wake Forest, played for Danny Manning, and was a role player, but ended up playing a year in the ACC, contributing some big 3s and getting the chance to play in the ACC Tourney and NCAA, thereby helping Wake erase the horrible memories of the Bzzzzzdelik years.   To me, that's a reason for the grad transfer rule.

I think we need to dispose of the myth that Gonzaga is a mid-major. That is an elite program.

I also think the days of needing play in the P5 to get notice by Pro teams/NBA teams are completely dead. Every game is on TV these days and NBA squads have the resources to scout anywhere and everywhere.

[valpopal]

[tweet]849730484787662850[/tweet]

[tweet]849400018104659968[/tweet]

Any Kiser news?

[valpo64]

I would consider both Butler and Gonzaga as "major" programs.

[vu72]

I would consider both Butler and Gonzaga as "major" programs.

Perhaps, but Butler hasn't even won their own conference title yet.  I have been surprised that they have been able to "reload" on a regular basis.  Part of it is their style of play where they play very solid defense and don't turn the ball over.  As a result, they play close games all the time.  Still, they lost to Indiana State and lost in the first round of their conference tourney.  Very solid but not quite "major" in my estimation.

[VULB#62]

They are competitive in a P6 conference are they not?  They were nationally ranked this season, no?  They draw 9,300+ per game in the Big East. What's not "major" about that? Stumbles along the way happen to everyone, but the body of work since joining the Big East is competitive at a P6 level. 

[zvillehaze]

I would consider both Butler and Gonzaga as "major" programs.

Perhaps, but Butler hasn't even won their own conference title yet.  I have been surprised that they have been able to "reload" on a regular basis.  Part of it is their style of play where they play very solid defense and don't turn the ball over.  As a result, they play close games all the time.  Still, they lost to Indiana State and lost in the first round of their conference tourney.  Very solid but not quite "major" in my estimation.

Over the last 11 seasons, Butler has been in the AP Top 25 for 110 of 211 weeks (reaching #11 or higher in SEVEN of those 11 seasons).  In those years, they've been to the NCAA Tournament 9 times, going 18-9, making 4 Sweet 16s and 2 Final Fours. 

Despite a few inexplicable losses, I would agree that's pretty solid.

[NativeCheesehead]

Let's be honest. We all dislike Butler because we wish our admin had the same dedication to basketball.

[bbtds]

Let's be honest. We all dislike Butler because we wish our admin had the same dedication to basketball.

......and their big mouth totally obnoxious fans. If you think they are numerous in NW Indiana try living in Indy.

[valpopal]

Checked the 2017 Xfers list and found the following of interest: Matt Ryan (SO) Notre Dame 6-7 SF 3*-4*  HS - Iona Prep, New Rochelle, NY.  If he is homesick he has a whole bunch of NY and NE D-I schools to go to.  OR he might like to stay in Indiana about 30 miles down the road?

Looks like Ryan might end up with Bryce. He is on an official visit to Vandy today.

[VU2014]

Checked the 2017 Xfers list and found the following of interest: Matt Ryan (SO) Notre Dame 6-7 SF 3*-4*  HS - Iona Prep, New Rochelle, NY.  If he is homesick he has a whole bunch of NY and NE D-I schools to go to.  OR he might like to stay in Indiana about 30 miles down the road?

Looks like Ryan might end up with Bryce. He is on an official visit to Vandy today.

I believe Bryce/Roger were the primary recruiters when VU was trying to recruit him out of high school.

Valpo still has a chance I'm guessing. It may come down to where does he think he'll get the most playing time and development his last 2yrs of eligibility. At least thats what should be one of the main considerations if he hopes to play at the next level (Pros: Europe).

I don't believe he's taken an official visit to Valpo yet since leaving Providence. It will be a positive sign if we don't hear anything (he doesn't commit yet) and he takes a visit to Valpo with our coaches. I remember reading that he wanted to play closer to home possibly and that playing time and opportunity to get on the court was key.

Look at Vandy's roster only has to SF on it (SR/JR Next season). So that is something to consider and I'm sure Bryce/Roger will try and sell him on that. Fingers crossed he doesn't commit right away and hopefully comes in for a visit with the new coaching staff. He is already familiar with Coach Lottich and Coach Gore.

[valpopal]

Checked the 2017 Xfers list and found the following of interest: Matt Ryan (SO) Notre Dame 6-7 SF 3*-4*  HS - Iona Prep, New Rochelle, NY.  If he is homesick he has a whole bunch of NY and NE D-I schools to go to.  OR he might like to stay in Indiana about 30 miles down the road?

Looks like Ryan might end up with Bryce. He is on an official visit to Vandy today.

I believe Bryce/Roger were the primary recruiters when VU was trying to recruit him out of high school.

Valpo still has a chance I'm guessing. It may come down to where does he think he'll get the most playing time and development his last 2yrs of eligibility. At least thats what should be one of the main considerations if he hopes to play at the next level (Pros: Europe).

I don't believe he's taken an official visit to Valpo yet since leaving Providence. It will be a positive sign if we don't hear anything (he doesn't commit yet) and he takes a visit to Valpo with our coaches. I remember reading that he wanted to play closer to home possibly and that playing time and opportunity to get on the court was key.

Look at Vandy's roster only has to SF on it (SR/JR Next season). So that is something to consider and I'm sure Bryce/Roger will try and sell him on that. Fingers crossed he doesn't commit right away and hopefully comes in for a visit with the new coaching staff. He is already familiar with Coach Lottich and Coach Gore.

I think you have your Ryans confused, 2014. Matt Ryan, Notre Dame transfer, is at Vanderbilt for a visit with Bryce. The other Ryan is Ryan Fazekas, a Providence transfer that is a possible Valpo recruit.

[valpo4life]

Kanter has committed to play at Xavier. I believe his older brother, Enes, went to Ohio St but was not eligible to play. Maybe the family has some kind of Ohio connection?

[M]

Cool, makes GB weaker and gives Valpo a better shot at the HL tournament crown.

[zvillehaze]

Kanter has committed to play at Xavier. I believe his older brother, Enes, went to Ohio St but was not eligible to play. Maybe the family has some kind of Ohio connection?

Enes attended Kentucky for a season. 

[Valpower]

Cool, makes GB weaker and gives Valpo a better shot at the HL tournament crown.

Have we learned nothing from Motor City Badness?  It's all about finishing lower in the conference standings.

[valpo4life]

Kanter has committed to play at Xavier. I believe his older brother, Enes, went to Ohio St but was not eligible to play. Maybe the family has some kind of Ohio connection?

Enes attended Kentucky for a season. 

Ah that was it. Either way still close in proximity to each other.

[VU2014]

Interesting read. A article relevant to all Mid-Major programs. Alec did not get enough praise for staying with Valpo.   

https://twitter.com/SethOnHoops/status/852155301331652609

https://www.fanragsports.com/cbb/adapt-die-robert-morris-andy-toole-dealt-college-basketballs-transfer-epidemic/

Adapt or Die: How Robert Morris' Andy Toole dealt with college basketball's transfer epidemic
By: Jon Rothstein
Posted on Apr 12, 2017

Andy Toole had finally broken through.

After four straight years of missing out on the NCAA Tournament, Robert Morris' baby-faced head coach had led his team to a road win over St. Francis (NY) in the 2015 NEC title game.

"That win felt like validation for our program," Toole said.

There was no more talk about missed opportunities after losing in the game to get to the field of 68 in his first two seasons as a head coach and then coming up short after winning the conference regular season title in both 2013 and 2014.

Toole had arrived and his program was now about to play in the most hallowed event in all of college sports — the field of 68.

A four-point victory in the First Four over North Florida would follow, which led to a Round of 64 showdown with top-seeded Duke.

The game was built as David against Goliath, and it rightfully should have been.

No 16 seed has ever beaten a one seed in the history of the NCAA Tournament and that narrative will continue to be painted until history proves otherwise.

The Blue Devils beat the Colonials 85-56 to advance to the Round of 32, but the takeaway from the game for the losers was filled with two things: Toole's potential to be a hot name on the coaching carousel that spring and Marcquise Reed's ability to score the basketball (he had 22 points against the Blue Devils).

***

The dream of every mid-major head coach in college basketball is to get an opportunity to hold a different post at a higher level.

Toole had some interest from certain programs that would have been viewed as lateral moves prior to 2015, but after his first appearance in the NCAA Tournament, he received an offer to be the head coach at Fordham.

For many this would be a no brainer, but for Toole, it was not.

"I was extremely humbled by the interest that Fordham had," Toole said. "But I felt there was a lot more that could be accomplished at Robert Morris. I felt loyalties to certain people at this place, especially our players. It didn't feel like the right thing to do at the time."

Certain people in Toole's camp thought he was crazy not to cash in his ticket while his stock was on the rise and be a head coach in the Atlantic 10, but he wasn't going to leave what he thought was a good situation for a job that was anything except plum.

Fordham hasn't been to the NCAA Tournament since 1992 and as confident as he was in his own abilities, the former point guard who played for current Temple head coach Fran Dunphy at Penn believed in the core he had returning at Robert Morris.

Or so he thought.

***

Marcquise Reed was the NEC Rookie of the Year during the 2014-15 season and averaged 15.1 points during his first season of college basketball. In addition to the 22 points he scored against Duke in the 2015 NCAA Tournament, he also scored 24 earlier that season at North Carolina and 21 at Clemson.

With he and Rodney Pryor returning, Robert Morris was pegged to be heavy favorites to defend its NEC title and return to the field of 68.

Then Reed came into Toole's office and told him he wanted to transfer and play at a higher level.

"Unfortunately, it was probably something that we were trying to guard against for much of the season," Toole said. "You hear rumors and people ask you questions. It was disappointing. You don't want to inhibit somebody's dreams, but you also understand it's going to be harmful for your program. We didn't do anything to try and stop Marcquise from being at the right spot, but we also tried to explain to him that we could be the right spot. If you're good enough anywhere, people will find you. He obviously didn't feel that way."

Reed took his talents to Clemson, where he averaged 10.0 points during this past season. He has two years of eligibility remaining in his college career.

What happened to Robert Morris the year after he left?

The Colonials had their worst season under Toole's watch as a head coach, finishing 10-22 overall and 8-10 in NEC play.

Prior to the 2015-16 season, Robert Morris was a combined 110-65 overall under Toole's watch with a 65-23 mark in regular season conference games.

Did he become a bad coach overnight?

Of course not.

He just lost Reed, who would have been an NEC Player of the Year candidate as a sophomore.

Toole wasn't overly concerned about the state of his program after one down year because he knew he returned a strong nucleus of players headlined by Pryor, his leading scorer.

Or so he thought.

***

NCAA rules allow student athletes who complete their undergraduate degrees to transfer immediately without sitting out.

The rule has become a major part of recruiting and is essentially the lifeblood of what many programs focus on at the conclusion of every season.

So it wasn't a surprise to Toole, when Pryor — who averaged 18.0 points during the 2015-16 — told him that he was going to graduate from Robert Morris and transfer to a higher level. He wound up committing to Georgetown and averaging 18.0 points and 5.0 rebounds this past season.

"Going into my senior year I kind of knew that I had a chance to get an extra year of eligibility," Pryor told FanRag Sports. "After the season was over and I found that I got an extra year, I wanted to play on a higher level and showcase my talents. There's no substitute for the ability to play games regularly on national television."

The Colonials had now lost their two leading scorers in back-to-back seasons and all of a sudden a place that was the flagship program in the NEC was merely spinning on its axis.

"I think again it was a situation that we potentially knew was going to develop," Toole said of Pryor's departure. "We all kind of understood that Rodney was probably going to graduate and look to play at the highest level. We don't want to stop people from what they think is best, but the hardest part of the whole thing is finding someone to replace those guys. It's hard to replace guys like Marcquise and Rodney at our level."

How do you build a program when good players who produce are going to try to transfer up a level?

It's made Toole and many others reevaluate the way to build a program at a lower level.

"It's gotten really crazy now," said former Drexel head coach Bruiser Flint, who is now an assistant at Indiana under Archie Miller. "The bigger schools have really gotten into it. There's a supply and there's a demand. If you've got a really good player who's going into his last year and he has an extra year, you've got no shot of keeping him. Hopefully you have an understanding athletic director. Sometimes they don't understand why the kids are doing it, but the kids are leaving because they see they can have a better basketball experience at the higher level."

Flint knows this narrative better than most.

When he was at Drexel in 2014, his best player — Damion Lee — opted to graduate and transfer to Louisville.

With Lee, Drexel would have been a contender in the CAA. Instead, Flint was looking for work two years after his star player's departure.

"The margin for error at that level is so small," Flint added. "One player makes such a big difference."

Like Flint, Toole had a plan in place after seeing a key piece in his program depart and he was ready to implement it.

He lost his two top scorers in back-to-back seasons because Reed and Pryor wanted to go to a higher level, but in his heart he was certain that there was no way that the same thing would happen again.

Or so he thought.

***

Isaiah Still averaged 15.7 points and 4.6 rebounds this past season for Robert Morris.

He was first on the Colonials in scoring and second in rebounding. He made 60 three-point shots and at 6-foot-6, was the type of mid-major talent that could shine if his team ever reached the NCAA Tournament.

Instead, he's following the lead of both Reed and Pryor.

Still told Toole after the season that he's going to transfer in hopes of "finding a bigger platform" to play on.

So if you're keeping count at home, Robert Morris has lost its three top scorers in three consecutive seasons because all three wanted to play at a higher level.

With Still in tow last season, the Colonials were slightly better than the year before, but only finished 14-19 overall and 9-9 mark in league play.

How does Toole rebuild a program that keeps losing its best players? Does he wish he would have left two years ago and accepted the opportunity at Fordham?

These are all things he deals with every day as he tries to get Robert Morris back to the level it was at prior to the spring of 2015.

"There's not one day that goes by that makes me wish that I would have done something differently in terms of my own career," Toole said. "I think what we're trying to understand is that this is the way it is. We have to adapt. We have to continue to try and recruit the best players we can. We have to continue to find ways to upgrade our program. The approach that you're going to have to take is that you're constantly going to be replacing guys if they're really good at our level. As a coach and a staff, you have to be preparing for the fact that scholarships are one-year renewable agreements. You have to be constantly prepare for transfers and a changing roster on an annual basis."

That's a hard thing to swallow for a mid-major head coach in 2017, but it's ultimately the truth.

Ten years ago, no one would have predicted that "transferring up" in college basketball would become a trend, but it has. It's benefited certain programs at the high-major level and it's also depleted programs like Robert Morris.

Toole now moves forward, determined to get this team back to where it was a few years ago, but he knows he may have no control over what may happen if one of his current players becomes the next breakout star in the NEC.

Will that player do what Reed, Pryor and Still did? Will he be the player that ultimately leads the Colonials back to the NCAA Tournament?

These are questions that currently have no answers, but those questions also provide a perplexing dynamic for Toole moving forward.

How do you rebuild a college basketball program when you're constantly losing the best commodity you have on annual basis?

It's real simple — you can't.

[VUOR63]

Mid major coaches have to create a culture in their programs that players from bigger schools want to come to when they realize "big" doesn't really mean "better".  I think Bryce Drew did this while he was at Valpo and we'll see if Lottich can do this while he is at the helm.

[VU2014]

The Horizon League loses another one to transfer. The grad transfer rule is really hurting the Horizon League (and other Mid-Major/Low-Major Conf)

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/852228003123916800