Some Faculty Members are trying to get rid of the Crusader & Change the Mascot..

[ValpoFan]

It is very interesting how this thread quickly evolved into a religious history discussion. I personally, do not feel that this is the right platform for such deep topic, so I will pass.
However, I want to point out that Muslims are only a very small minority of the people who find the crusader mascot to be inappropriate. The event on campus was NOT organized by Muslims and only one of the several speakers in it was a Muslim. The admission recruiters who reported issues were recruiting not only in the middle east, but also in the midwest, China, India, etc...
What I am trying to say is: this is not a Christian vs Muslim issue.

The Mascot is only a Mascot, it is supposed to help your brand, not the other way around. If you are losing "business" because of your Mascot, something is going wrong.

If you own a restaurant and you know that some customers like your food but will not eat there because of an art painting on the wall in your restaurant. Wouldn't you remove it? Even if that painting has a historical significance to you, would you be so stubborn to lose the business for a painting?

[vu72]

It is very interesting how this thread quickly evolved into a religious history discussion. I personally, do not feel that this is the right platform for such deep topic, so I will pass.
However, I want to point out that Muslims are only a very small minority of the people who find the crusader mascot to be inappropriate. The event on campus was NOT organized by Muslims and only one of the several speakers in it was a Muslim. The admission recruiters who reported issues were recruiting not only in the middle east, but also in the midwest, China, India, etc...
What I am trying to say is: this is not a Christian vs Muslim issue.

The Mascot is only a Mascot, it is supposed to help your brand, not the other way around. If you are losing "business" because of your Mascot, something is going wrong.

If you own a restaurant and you know that some customers like your food but will not eat there because of an art painting on the wall in your restaurant. Wouldn't you remove it? Even if that painting has a historical significance to you, would you be so stubborn to lose the business for a painting?

As I feel we are dealing with a few extremes here, let me suggest a restaurant situation:  You own an Irish/British/Scotish pub.  You are very fond of the Donald Tartan wall paper, in fact you can trace your own heritage back to the Donald's.  So along comes members of the Stewart family who, in the 1200's truly hated the Donald's and many were killed by Donald clansmen.  They are so upset they don't want to frequent your establishment.  Do you change the wallpaper as to not offend??   

[VU2014]

One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

[wh]

You had a warm and engaging mascot with a beaming smile - a truly cute and cuddly character.  But, that wasn't inclusive enough for those who choose to live life perpetually offended and aggrieved. Hmm, what to do? 

"We know!" say the enlightened ones. "Let's have a nameless, faceless, colorless, genderless, personalityless Crusader!  That way, nobody can possibly be offended!"  Thus, the single most boring mascot action figure in the history of athletics is born - "The Crusader!" 

And all is right in the world.

Except for one minor detail. This new bag of bones hidden behind a coat of armor and face shield is a mirror image of one of those "bad" Christian warriors from the 12th century in full battle garb, ready to murder "innocent," "peace loving" Muslims of the day.

So, after waiting ever so patiently for the push back from the first change to work through all the steps from rejection through acceptance, the snake slithers out of its hole and issues a new demand - "Get rid of that offensive Crusader once and for all!"

And the snake worshipers and the snake appeasers bow to the whims and wishes of the snake once again.

And all is right in the world.

And the snake smiles.

12 For our struggle is not against [a]flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Ephesians 6:12-13New American Standard Bible (NASB)

[agibson]

If you choose not to convert in defeat, you can choose submission sometimes.  People have been allowed to pay the "jizrah" (perhaps not spelled right) as conquered people. It is essentially a tax paid by non-muslims to the dominant muslim government for the high privilege of not being killled.

There's a long and tangled history here and surely practices varied from place to place. But, I've heard that sometimes this "non-muslim tax" was essentially a replacement for a tax Muslims paid. One of the five pillars of Islam is charitable giving (zakat). I think this is sometimes connected with Ramadan, and is often a fraction of _wealth_ rather than a fraction of _income_. I think that there have been times and places where this was collected by the government as a tax, and then hopefully redistributed to those in need. And, in those circumstances, if you're not going to collect zakat from Christians, imposing some other kind of tax on them could perhaps make some sense

Not to say that governments never abuse their citizens. Or that Islamic governments have never abused minority citizens.

[bbtds]

I still say we switch to the Vicuña which would be unique and much less controversial


http://www.factzoo.com/mammals/vicuna-tiny-south-american-camel.html


The vicuña, a graceful yet fast animal, has a thick brown coat that protects its body against the cold in its habitat. The vicuña, because of its warm coat, is able to tolerate the cold, ice and snow. The male feels most at home and happy when it's among a group of about 5-15 females. This male vicuña will alert the females if any danger comes so that the female vicuñas can quickly run away. Younger males without a female harem will form their own groups. When the male fights, it will usually spit at the other vicuña. The vicuña can run very fast, at about 29 miles per hour (47 kph). These animals usually eat grass, and also eat small plants.

[NativeCheesehead]

People wanting to change a school mascot name are the 'forces of darkness'?

[agibson]

I just don't think any person has ever seen the Crusader Mascot as a celebration of the Crusades.

So, if people don't think of medieval knights fighting holy wars, what do they think about? Billy Graham?

What are the advantages of the Crusader, apart from 75 years of inertia? Is it mostly about chivalry, with a religious cast? Sort of a "Christian Knight" if not a "Lutheran Knight"?

[VU2014]

I just don't think any person has ever seen the Crusader Mascot as a celebration of the Crusades.

So, if people don't think of medieval knights fighting holy wars, what do they think about? Billy Graham?

What are the advantages of the Crusader, apart from 75 years of inertia? Is it mostly about chivalry, with a religious cast? Sort of a "Christian Knight" if not a "Lutheran Knight"?

I just don't think many people care about the Crusader mascot and are greatly offended by it other then a very small group of SJWs. I think the whole "movement" is very much a case of a few people (who are not even of the Islamic faith (which are the main audience that I believe most folks think could potentially be offended by it) are getting offended about this mascot that may (I emphasize may) offend other people.

I just think a lot of this is a lot to do about nothing. I don't really feel passionate about the Crusader. I just find it ridiculous that people care about something from a 1000 years ago and get offended by a knight from that era. I just don't like the idea of catering to a few people to change things that feels unnecessary to change.

Also to answer your question about Billy Graham, I don't really think much of him one way or another. I know he's a famous Christian evangelist, but I am not familiar with his work.

[agibson]

Also to answer your question about Billy Graham, I don't really think much of him one way or another. I know he's a famous Christian evangelist, but I am not familiar with his work.

I was just tossing out another reference for Crusades. I wasn't trying to take a stance pro or con Graham, just remembering that he used the label for his evangelistic events. So, there are a set of possible associations related to him, or his events, that people could attach to the word Crusader.

If they're not thinking about medieval knights fighting in "holy" wars.

Or, I suppose, people could try to think about "one or another version of the mascot at basketball games, abstracted from other associations". But, that too seems like a stretch to me.

Symbols matter.

[justducky]

http://www.factzoo.com/mammals/vicuna-tiny-south-american-camel.html


The vicuña, a graceful yet fast animal, has a thick brown coat that protects its body against the cold in its habitat. The vicuña, because of its warm coat, is able to tolerate the cold, ice and snow. The male feels most at home and happy when it's among a group of about 5-15 females. This male vicuña will alert the females if any danger comes so that the female vicuñas can quickly run away. Younger males without a female harem will form their own groups. When the male fights, it will usually spit at the other vicuña. The vicuña can run very fast, at about 29 miles per hour (47 kph). These animals usually eat grass, and also eat small plants.

OK. You are starting to get my attention. They look to be a tasty grass fed animal that many of us would be willing to include in our diets. Why don't you post your top 10 favorite vicuna recipes so we can do a little more research. Better yet, grill or barbecue one outside the ARC and all of us can try a free sample.   

« Last Edit: Today at 10:23:29 AM by bbtds »

[bbtds]

http://www.factzoo.com/mammals/vicuna-tiny-south-american-camel.html


The vicuña, a graceful yet fast animal, has a thick brown coat that protects its body against the cold in its habitat. The vicuña, because of its warm coat, is able to tolerate the cold, ice and snow. The male feels most at home and happy when it's among a group of about 5-15 females. This male vicuña will alert the females if any danger comes so that the female vicuñas can quickly run away. Younger males without a female harem will form their own groups. When the male fights, it will usually spit at the other vicuña. The vicuña can run very fast, at about 29 miles per hour (47 kph). These animals usually eat grass, and also eat small plants.

OK. You are starting to get my attention. They look to be a tasty grass fed animal that many of us would be willing to include in our diets. Why don't you post your top 10 favorite vicuna recipes so we can do a little more research. Better yet, grill or barbecue one outside the ARC and all of us can try a free sample.   

http://www.americanalpacameat.com/recipes.html

alpaca meat is very similar to vicuña

[StlVUFan]

One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

If no one is choosing or not choosing to go to Valpo because of the mascot, then why does it matter whether it gets changed or not?

[wh]

One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

If no one is choosing or not choosing to go to Valpo because of the mascot, then why does it matter whether it gets changed or not?

You still risk alienating other important stakeholders, such as alumni, friends of the university like myself (who are also donors), conservative local and state government officials, etc. A basic principle of business says that if risk (i.e., potential loss of donor dollars, goodwill) outweighs reward (increased enrollment), you don't pull the trigger except under rare circumstances.

[crusadermoe]

We're good as long as none of the faculty members at a mascot protest shouts out, "Can we get some muscle over here?"

[StlVUFan]

One thing I don't understand is the concept of Valpo losing business over the mascot. As far as I know no one is not coming to Valpo because of the Crusader. Is there any data to support that Valpo is losing out on students because of a mascot?

If no one is choosing or not choosing to go to Valpo because of the mascot, then why does it matter whether it gets changed or not?

You still risk alienating other important stakeholders, such as alumni, friends of the university like myself (who are also donors), conservative local and state government officials, etc. A basic principle of business says that if risk (i.e., potential loss of donor dollars, goodwill) outweighs reward (increased enrollment), you don't pull the trigger except under rare circumstances.

That makes sense, but I was addressing the "I'm so sick of this P.C. crap" argument, not the "Why would we damage the Valpo brand" argument.

If the potential for offending others by keeping the current mascot (who may also be stakeholders) is very small, and the potential for offending those who like the current mascot is great, then the risk/reward analysis obviously concludes that you don't make the change.

Of course, that's not the only angle available to us on this question.  For those who treasure the current mascot as precious, if you're also saying that the mascot doesn't really matter to anyone, then *that* is the point of my question.  I'm reminded of those who get angry when people protest the manger scene in front of city hall and one of their arguments is "it's just a manger scene, it's not a church service."  Well, if it's just a manger scene, than why is it so precious to you?

See what I mean?

[FWalum]

I just have one question.... If this mascot is offensive to people, why in the world did we put the huge inflatable more ominous looking Crusader in the ARC? 

Why did that same image become much more prevalent in our marketing after the somewhat recent "rebranding".

The previous cartoonish Crusader was mainly used for athletics.  I can't ever remember it being used for things related to the "University side" like the new more serious Crusader is sometimes used. Was this a rebranding mistake?

For complete disclosure, I voted no but have never been really happy with the new mascot and some of the rebranding in general.

[covufan]

Shields Up!

[crusadermoe]

Looks good to me.

Remember that 2009 or 2010 ish Crusader mascot with the coffee can head and the Halloween tissue paper coat?

   (from a famous faculty protest of 2015)      "HEY,..CAN WE GET SOME MUSCLE OVER HERE?"

[FWalum]

Looks good to me.

Remember that 2009 or 2010 ish Crusader mascot with the coffee can head and the Halloween tissue paper coat?

   (from a famous faculty protest of 2015)      "HEY,..CAN WE GET SOME MUSCLE OVER HERE?"

Yes, I think I was the first one to say it reminded me of Bender on Futurama.  The expressionless mascot, while better than in the early iterations, still leaves something to be desired.

I wasn't saying that the logo image or the inflatable look bad, just that it doesn't make a lot of sense, if you are worried about something being even the slightest offensive, to make it more visible than it was in the past. 

[hailcrusaders]

I've been busy so I'm totally late to the party on this. I'm a fairly recent alumnus, and I did graduate work at the University of North Dakota during the nickname transition there. UND and Valpo are not perfect comparisons for a variety of reasons, but it's an interesting perspective.

I'd be dead set against changing the nickname. This sounds to me like a select few students and faculty trying to strong-arm the rest of us into making a change that a majority of people either oppose or are ambivalent to, a perfect case of the "vocal minority". I'd welcome a vote amongst students and alumni to see if my suspicion is correct.

Valpo isn't the most diverse school, but a substantial portion of our international students are practicing Muslims or come from Islamic countries. These students could have come to just about any school in America or their home countries, and yet they chose Valpo, which tells me that the nickname isn't that big of a deal to them. When we start seeing plummeting enrollments from Islamic students and protests from the ones who do come here, then I may reconsider.

Of course admissions counselors aren't going to want CRUSADERS plastered all over pamphlets to international recruitment fairs. They may not want to give out free strips of bacon, but that doesn't mean we can't serve bacon at the Union. Ole Miss may not want REBELS plastered all over their pamphlets, and yet they still manage to attract thousands of African-American students to go to their school, play on their teams, etc..

I had professors at UND who were against the Sioux nickname but had no problem acknowledging or wishing "the Crusaders" well when it came up in conversation with me. Point is, I bet people are much more likely to have concerns about the nickname of their own school than nicknames that could be deemed offensive at other schools. Which suggests that in the broader context of academia nation-wide, very few people care if Valpo is the "Crusaders", or think it's offensive, or are going to broad-brush our entire school as a bunch of islamophobes.

Also, consider nicknames at other schools to which the same arguments may apply. Historically, Vikings pillaged and burned most of Britannia (not long before the Crusades). And yet, Cleveland State, Portland State, and a host of smaller schools have "Vikings" as a nickname and manage to attract thousands of students of British descent. Idaho has managed not to offend anyone with "Vandals", who were historically guilty of similar offenses. Other nicknames like Trojans, Spartans, Knights, Raiders, Pirates, Buccaneers, Minutemen, Midshipmen, Privateers, Colonels, Commodores, Musketeers, and Cavaliers could be deemed "too violent" or "celebrating war". "Blue Devils", "Sun Devils", or "Blue Demons" could be considered offensive to Christians (or other religions). "Colonials", "Explorers", and "Sooners" could be considered as "celebrating colonialism", which apparently isn't PC any more. Calling for all of these to be changed would be ridiculous, right? Yet the same arguments apply.

I am employed through academia, and have a "Go Crusaders" poster hanging up in my office. Not one student - Islamic, Christian, or neither - has complained in disgust. If someone asks about it, I will have no problem explaining what a crusader is, or why I have it up in my office. If they ask if Valpo is a place of islamophobia, I'll tell them, no, it's a very welcoming environment and a school open to those of any faith. Valpo students are not actually violent islamophobes any more than Northwestern students are actually Wildcats, Michigan students actually Wolverines, etc.

Also, nickname changes are expensive. I've heard estimates that UND has spent over $1 mil on retiring "Fighting Sioux", and choosing/commisioning a new nickname and logo. What if we spent that much? That'd be a million dollars we could be spending upgrading on-campus housing, the new aviation program, renovating the ARC, or a myriad of other noble causes. I don't know how much alumni donations would be affected. Honestly, I don't see any way donations would go *up* in the future if the nickname was changed. Miami and Marquette have gotten along just fine (jury's still out on North Dakota, university finances are a dumpster fire up there), but Valpo has half the endowment of either of those schools, and I'd imagine that even a slight dip in donations would have much greater effects here than either MU. Is that a risk we're sure about taking?

The last thing I'd like to point out is that "Crusader" has several different definitions. One can be a "crusader" for justice, light (like the university seal and motto), or knowledge (a very good thing to be at an institution of higher ed). If we have to capitulate to the vocal minority in some way, perhaps we can emphasize these latter definitions, rather than the "violent", "islamophobic" knight?

[VULB#62]

I think we should keep the nick-name but change the mascot to .... (wait for it)..........Crusader Rabbit!!!  OR........ keep the nick-name and change our mascot to the Caped Crusader, Batman!  Or, on second thought, maybe Bat Cow.

[M]

We should become the Valpo Bulldogs...Bulldogs are the only mid major(ish) teams that make the finals!

[NativeCheesehead]

Good insights, hail. Another reason some of the recent name changes are not a perfect comparison is when a school is named after a Native American tribe, and that tribe asked for the name to be changed. Even if the original name was to honor that tribe, if the tribe says, "This doesn't honor us. In fact, it's offensive." Then that to me is different. Now if the zombie apocalypse happens and some honest-to-goodness crusaders tell us this is offensive......well then we'll have bigger problems to worry about anyway.

[wh]

People can spin history any way they want, but the truth is that the Crusaders saved Christianity from extinction and a world dominated by a single religion - Islam. If not for the Crusaders, every person on earth today would be subject to the authority of Sharia Law, a set of archaic, bigoted, fundamentally evil rules that still dominate Islamic societies today.

The Crusaders role was much like Sherman's march to the sea. They both had scorched earth policies, did a lot of damage, and hurt a lot of innocent people along the way to victory. Both groups were far from perfect vessels, but they were responsible for stopping hideous ideologies from dominating the world - then and now.

Those who care about personal freedom and the free society in which we live owe as much gratitude to the Crusaders as we do "the greatest generation" for saving us from Nazi Germany or the axis of evil. If you can't honor the memory of the Crusaders, by all means change the name to something superficial and meaningless and move on. The Crusaders deserve better than being dragged through the mud by a group of pampered classroom instructors and a group of kids who live in the moment.