Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[VUGrad1314]

There may be a reason why we're going to a league that averages 4000-5000 fans a night (I hope we're able to contribute well to that I don't think averaging 4000 a night is out of the question for VU this year) and they're busy courting teams that average 1000-2000.

[VULB#62]

The city of Fort Wayne is building a new arena costing over $100 million. I wonder if this will help the Horizon League come to a conclusion that IPFW would be a good add, especially since I believe they need an Indiana team? Interestingly, the $100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600, not a lot more than the ARC! Design and illustrations at link: http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center

Not to focus on facilities (yeah, it seems like it always comes up in one form or another), but based on the Ft. Wayne arena, we now know what it would take to build a new Valpo arena (and still not gain much seating).  To me, that closes the book on any new arena discussion and supports ARC renovation and north wall expansion. 

[bbtds]

noth wall expansion.

I heard the Good Wife faced a lot of issues from the noth wall.

[VU2014]

An interesting article diagnosing why the MVC didn't chose Omaha. Their Athletics budget is out of control. Looks like they may have been way too aggressive in making the leap to D1 and going out and putting the school in debt on that brand new stadium (dual facility for Hockey & Basketball/Volleyball).

With Omaha's budget in a mess I'm not sure LeCrone will get to land Omaha unless they bring down the entry fee for them if the University Presidents agree to invite them. No secret LeCrone has targeted UNO the last few years as a potential addition to the HL. If UNO were to leave the Summit it would cost them a $1 million exit fee and whatever the entry-fee is for the HL is now days. Its was $800k+ for Oakland back in 2013, not to mention they would likely have to increase there basketball budget to remain competitive with the rest of the HL schools.

Worth a read.

https://twitter.com/PaulSuellentrop/status/868947298839130112

http://www.omaha.com/news/education/uno-looks-at-cuts-fee-increases-wage-freezes-to-balance/article_13e7f7a4-196c-5d28-abd3-9e958b2b7d02.html

UNO looks at cuts, fee increases, wage freezes to balance athletic budget after move to Division I
By Rick Ruggles / World-Herald staff writer  May 28, 2017

[VU2014]

The city of Fort Wayne is building a new arena costing over $100 million. I wonder if this will help the Horizon League come to a conclusion that IPFW would be a good add, especially since I believe they need an Indiana team? Interestingly, the $100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600, not a lot more than the ARC! Design and illustrations at link: http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/story/34525720/design-plans-revealed-for-fort-wayne-events-center

This seems like a terribly fiscally irresponsible move by the City of Fort Wayne. $100 million-plus facility would only seat 5,600 Seems like a EPICALLY TERRIBLE IDEA!

They likely won't recoup that money for a very long time if ever.

If this happens then you know where the next Horizon League Tourney site will be if LeCrone is still around...

So they are building this stadium for the a D-League team (that averages generously a 1,800 fans) and a future arena football team that doesn't exist yet? Maybe the IPFW basketball that struggles with attendance as is and the IPFW is struggling finically and there has been whispers of the board considering going D2 in sports to save $. This seems like a horrendous idea of a project and if I were a Fort Wayne citizen I would be emailing and calling the Mayor and City Council about this.

[VULB#62]

They already have a 13,000 seat arena. Why a new smaller one?

[VUGrad1314]

Sounds like the Horizon League is going to spend a year with only nine teams,AND NO INDIANA SCHOOL despite the offices being located in Indianapolis, but they've got a robust strategic plan for expansion in the future I tell you. Didn't we hear this same song and dance when Butler left and when Loyola left and so on... Where is this "Grand Plan" and when is it going to be implemented, Mr LeCrone? Delayed action has now cost him three programs and could cost him more in the future. With realignment only expected to pick up in future years, and schools both within the Horizon League and on their candidate list rumored to be in financial trouble I really think that the stability of the league is a legitimate concern for its members and that they should all probably have their own exit strategies in order in case LeCrone's plan goes bad. I just find it inexcusable that four years ago when Creighton left the MVC, the conference visited three Horizon League schools and took one; and then, when Wichita State leaves, they visit two Horizon League schools and take one, and all LeCrone has to show for that is Northern Kentucky. Yes, the Norse have been a good add, but I expected him to have a better strategy lined up to add at least one team to get back to ten for this year in light of the fact that the Horizon League seems to be where the MVC goes to get new teams; and in light of the fact that everyone knew Wichita State was looking to leave soon and that Valpo was a leading candidate to join the Valley if they did. I fear it may only be a matter of time before 1. The Horizon League becomes a stronger version of the Ohio Valley Conference without Murray State and Belmont, or 2. The better Horizon League teams all hightail it to the Summit League or some other conference or a merger with the Summit is made. http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/sport-columns/2017/05/change-on-horizon-after-valpo-exit/

[VU2014]

IPFW is already a good add. The Horizon League's footprint is shifting East and they have a school (Wright State) that is in a good deal of financial trouble. Their job now that Valpo's gone should be to protect their new bellwether programs in Northern Kentucky and Oakland as well as try to protect Wright State financially and stoke greater interest in Youngstown State by minimizing travel costs and adding closer teams(Robert Morris IUPUI and IPFW would be my leading candidates in a sane universe where footprint matters I think adding Denver New Mexico State and Grand Canyon is just a foolhardy notion.

How far has the Horizon League fallen that one of the bellwether programs is a school that been D1 for 2 years (NKU), wow. I don't disagree they are one of the schools with the brighter futures in the League but its just pretty sad to see.

I completely agree that adding Western Teams: Denver, New Mexico State and Grand Canyon, would be a terrible move for the league. It would tolerable travel for the bread-winning sports like basketball but the travel costs for sending the Non-Revenue sports out west would intolerable, imo. Denver's Basketball budget is over $3M, which a massive chunk of it budget goes to travel because they have to fly every where in Summit League. It made me sick to my stomach when I heard LeCrone was seriously considering New Mexico State last summer & apparently they are still under consideration.

I agree that it would be wise for the HL to start moving East. I were Detroit-Mercy I would would be doing everything possible to try and move into the MAAC (all private eastern school Conference). I'm not sure the MAAC would want them considering they'd stretch the Conference fairly West for them but they match the private school profile and they aren't too far away from Canisius College which is located in Buffulo (a little over a 4 hour bus ride, but pretty far from every other school). Seems unlikely but you never know. The MAAC is super tight because those schools love being in a conference together from academics and geographic standpoint.

The Western part of the Horizon League will be swallowed up by the Missouri Valley in fairly short order in all likelihood. I can foresee a day where both Milwaukee and UIC are Valley members (as long as they continue to improve).

I could possibly see this happening if the basketball product significantly improves and shows that they can consistently over the course of 4-10yr window prove to be a consistently good program. Both program hired new coaches and are hoping to turn it around. Steve McClain can recruit the hell out of players but he's not exactly an X's & O's savant or great game manager. They should be a much better team next season and should start winning. Milwaukee hired a pretty good coach but they are much further behind in their rebuild and have a lot to prove still and further to go.

As for UIC they don't exactly a great academic overall in their men's athletics. Their Men's basketball team had 945 APR rating for the 2014-2015 season... (not so hot). Their women's side of athletics seems to score much higher then their men's programs. Not a single men's APR rating for the year of 2014-2015 scored above 977...

And we all know UWM has struggled with their academics in their Athletics. Men's Basketball was suspended from postseason play very recently.

Both schools have a lot of work to prove they can become more attractive potential members in my opinion and need prove in men's basketball over the course of a few years and once they get better you have to wonder how quickly they lose their coaches to bigger gigs. Can they retain their coaches if they start have success. UIC already lost their top recruiting assistant to the Illini staff (he was a huge part of the recruits they land the last few years because he use to be a very influential coach in the Chicago AAU leagues (a notorious shady operation. It's pretty well known that some coaches get paid $$$ under the table for sending their players to certain schools...)

However, if my memory serves, the Summit League has already outperformed the Horizon League in two of the past three seasons and that was BEFORE Valpo departed. How much worse will it get now? They have to act on Summit League teams immediately before the gulf between the two leagues widens to the point where teams like IPFW, IUPUI, and Western Illinois don't deem the hit in competition worth the travel savings of joining the Horizon.

I still think the Horizon League is going to be a better league then the Summit League long-term as long as the schools can retain their coaches at high % and Cleveland State & YSU can get up off their @$$ and start doing their part. I was not a fan of the CSU hire (retread older HC for low $) but the YSU has a better chance of getting going if their administration would start supporting the BBall program. YSU is a Football school and always will be and especially with Tressel and Pelini at the helm.

LeCrone's inability to act in a timely manner following Valpo's departure may cost him his best chance of saving his league. This is, of course, good for us because that means that they may be forced to look at the OVC for teams to help placate Northern Kentucky (Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky would be strong candidates in this case), which decreases the stability of that league and makes Belmont more likely to entertain a jump to the MVC pushing us further toward multi-bid status. Fun fact, I heard several weeks ago on that Murray State podcast that the Eastern Division of the OVC (Where Belmont is) actually outperformed the Horizon league in the Sagarin ratings. Granted, Belmont had a big say in that, but that's still a real black eye for a once great mid major league.

LeCrone has tried and failed to land Belmont already. So has the MVC apparently but I do think realignment could force them to make the jump especially once the TV rights for the OVC comes up and maybe the terms won't be as attractive as they once were. I believe the OVC deal is coming up soon.

I do think Belmont in the MVC would be a great fit for both parties, even if Belmont sees a slight boost in travel costs with the move. Unfortunately their President/AD/maybe also Rick Bryd are taking the cowards approach of trying become "king" of a 1-bid league. Such a weak approach. So far they've chose low travel/low competition for 1-bid over wanting to compete and help build a 2-bid league in the MVC. Murray State likely would have also received an invite if Belmont also chose to pursue the MVC and they would have had their #11 and #12. Belmont's strategy failed them this past year by getting knocked out in the Conf Tourney...

It will likely come down to $ next time around. If the $ makes sense for them to pay the $1M OVC exit fee and whatever the MVC entry fee is plus the small boost in travel expenses then yes they will make the jump. The travel fees maybe less in the MVC the OVC if Belmont joins because that means the MVC will go divisions and they'd get likely pair with Murray State, Southern Illinois, Evansville, Missouri State (a bit on an island by themselves), and Indiana State. The only part that would suck for Valpo would be that we likely wouldn't be in a division with Evansville and Indiana State which could become great renewed In-State Rivalries for us and the Conference.

North Division: "The Yankees"
-Loyola
-Valpo
-Illinois State
-Bradley
-Drake
-UNI

South Division: "The Southerners"
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Missouri State
-Evansville
-Indiana State
-Southern Illinois

I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur.

The "Problem" for Mid-Major basketball is that there are WAY to many schools right now that have NO BUSINESS being D1 schools right now. It hurts Mid-Major Basketball, in my opinion. There are just way to many "LOW Major" schools watering down the product for true "MID-MAJORS" Teams when it comes to getting multiple bids in Mid-Major Conferences across the country. Too many schools are dragging down the quality teams or teams with potential, imo.

Consider this: The number of Division I colleges and universities has increased from 306 to 350 over the past 20 years. Thats 44 schools in less then 20 years!

[VULB#62]

Sounds like the Horizon League is going to spend a year with only nine teams,AND NO INDIANA SCHOOL despite the offices being located in Indianapolis, but they've got a robust strategic plan for expansion in the future I tell you. Didn't we hear this same song and dance when Butler left and when Loyola left and so on... Where is this "Grand Plan" and when is it going to be implemented, Mr LeCrone? Delayed action has now cost him three programs and could cost him more in the future. With realignment only expected to pick up in future years, and schools both within the Horizon League and on their candidate list rumored to be in financial trouble I really think that the stability of the league is a legitimate concern for its members and that they should all probably have their own exit strategies in order in case LeCrone's plan goes bad. I just find it inexcusable that four years ago when Creighton left the MVC, the conference visited three Horizon League schools and took one; and then, when Wichita State leaves, they visit two Horizon League schools and take one, and all LeCrone has to show for that is Northern Kentucky. Yes, the Norse have been a good add, but I expected him to have a better strategy lined up to add at least one team to get back to ten for this year in light of the fact that the Horizon League seems to be where the MVC goes to get new teams; and in light of the fact that everyone knew Wichita State was looking to leave soon and that Valpo was a leading candidate to join the Valley if they did. I fear it may only be a matter of time before 1. The Horizon League becomes a stronger version of the Ohio Valley Conference without Murray State and Belmont, or 2. The better Horizon League teams all hightail it to the Summit League or some other conference or a merger with the Summit is made. http://www.tribtoday.com/sports/sport-columns/2017/05/change-on-horizon-after-valpo-exit/

Which of the two commisioners (Summit or HL) would be willing to give up their job? If that's in play, then a merger is never happening.

[VU2014]

Which of the two commisioners (Summit or HL) would b e willing to give up their job? If that's in play, then a merger is never happening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P10bC0Bxp20

[VUGrad1314]

 

IPFW is already a good add. The Horizon League's footprint is shifting East and they have a school (Wright State) that is in a good deal of financial trouble. Their job now that Valpo's gone should be to protect their new bellwether programs in Northern Kentucky and Oakland as well as try to protect Wright State financially and stoke greater interest in Youngstown State by minimizing travel costs and adding closer teams(Robert Morris IUPUI and IPFW would be my leading candidates in a sane universe where footprint matters I think adding Denver New Mexico State and Grand Canyon is just a foolhardy notion.

How far has the Horizon League fallen that one of the bellwether programs is a school that been D1 for 2 years (NKU), wow. I don't disagree they are one of the schools with the brighter futures in the League but its just pretty sad to see.

I completely agree that adding Western Teams: Denver, New Mexico State and Grand Canyon, would be a terrible move for the league. It would tolerable travel for the bread-winning sports like basketball but the travel costs for sending the Non-Revenue sports out west would intolerable, imo. Denver's Basketball budget is over $3M, which a massive chunk of it budget goes to travel because they have to fly every where in Summit League. It made me sick to my stomach when I heard LeCrone was seriously considering New Mexico State last summer & apparently they are still under consideration.

I agree that it would be wise for the HL to start moving East. I were Detroit-Mercy I would would be doing everything possible to try and move into the MAAC (all private eastern school Conference). I'm not sure the MAAC would want them considering they'd stretch the Conference fairly West for them but they match the private school profile and they aren't too far away from Canisius College which is located in Buffulo (a little over a 4 hour bus ride, but pretty far from every other school). Seems unlikely but you never know. The MAAC is super tight because those schools love being in a conference together from academics and geographic standpoint.

The Western part of the Horizon League will be swallowed up by the Missouri Valley in fairly short order in all likelihood. I can foresee a day where both Milwaukee and UIC are Valley members (as long as they continue to improve).

I could possibly see this happening if the basketball product significantly improves and shows that they can consistently over the course of 4-10yr window prove to be a consistently good program. Both program hired new coaches and are hoping to turn it around. Steve McClain can recruit the hell out of players but he's not exactly an X's & O's savant or great game manager. They should be a much better team next season and should start winning. Milwaukee hired a pretty good coach but they are much further behind in their rebuild and have a lot to prove still and further to go.

As for UIC they don't exactly a great academic overall in their men's athletics. Their Men's basketball team had 945 APR rating for the 2014-2015 season... (not so hot). Their women's side of athletics seems to score much higher then their men's programs. Not a single men's APR rating for the year of 2014-2015 scored above 377...

And we all know UWM has struggled with their academics in their Athletics. Men's Basketball was suspended from postseason play very recently.

Both schools have a lot of work to prove they can become more attractive potential members in my opinion and need prove in men's basketball over the course of a few years and once they get better you have to wonder how quickly they lose their coaches to bigger gigs. Can they retain their coaches if they start have success. UIC already lost their top recruiting assistant to the Illini staff (he was a huge part of the recruits they land the last few years because he use to be a very influential coach in the Chicago AAU leagues (a notorious shady operation. It's pretty well known that some coaches get paid $$$ under the table for sending their players to certain schools...)

However, if my memory serves, the Summit League has already outperformed the Horizon League in two of the past three seasons and that was BEFORE Valpo departed. How much worse will it get now? They have to act on Summit League teams immediately before the gulf between the two leagues widens to the point where teams like IPFW, IUPUI, and Western Illinois don't deem the hit in competition worth the travel savings of joining the Horizon.

I still think the Horizon League is going to be a better league then the Summit League long-term as long as the schools can retain their coaches at high % and Cleveland State & YSU can get up off their @$$ and start doing their part. I was not a fan of the CSU hire (retread older HC for low $) but the YSU has a better chance of getting going if their administration would start supporting the BBall program. YSU is a Football school and always will be and especially with Tressell and Pelini at the helm.

LeCrone's inability to act in a timely manner following Valpo's departure may cost him his best chance of saving his league. This is, of course, good for us because that means that they may be forced to look at the OVC for teams to help placate Northern Kentucky (Morehead State and Eastern Kentucky would be strong candidates in this case), which decreases the stability of that league and makes Belmont more likely to entertain a jump to the MVC pushing us further toward multi-bid status. Fun fact, I heard several weeks ago on that Murray State podcast that the Eastern Division of the OVC (Where Belmont is) actually outperformed the Horizon league in the Sagarin ratings. Granted, Belmont had a big say in that, but that's still a real black eye for a once great mid major league.

LeCrone has tried and failed to land Belmont already. So has the MVC apparently but I do think realignment could force them to make the jump especially once the TV rights for the OVC comes up and maybe the terms won't be as attractive as they once were. I believe the OVC deal is coming up soon.

I do think Belmont in the MVC would be a great fit for both parties, even if Belmont sees a slight boost in travel costs with the move. Unfortunately their President/AD/maybe also Rick Bryd are taking the cowards approach of trying become "king" of a 1-bid league. Such a weak approach. So far they've chose low travel/low competition for 1-bid over wanting to compete and help build a 2-bid league in the MVC. Murray State likely would have also received an invite if Belmont also chose to purse the MVC and they would have had their #11 and #12. Belmont's strategy failed them this past year by getting knocked out in the Conf Tourney...

It will likely come down to $ next time around. If the $ makes sense for them to pay the $1M OVC exit fee and whatever the MVC entry fee is plus the small boost in travel expenses then yes they will make the jump. The travel fees maybe less in the MVC the OVC if Belmont joins because that means the MVC will go divisions and they'd get likely pair with Murray State, Southern Illinois, Evansville, Missouri State (a bit on an island by themselves), and Indiana State. The only part that sucks for Valpo would be that we would be in a division with Evansville and Indiana State which could become great renewed In-State Rivalries for us and the Conference.

North Division: "The Yankees"
-Loyola
-Valpo
-Illinois State
-Bradley
-Drake
-UNI

South Division: "The Southerners"
-Belmont
-Murray State
-Missouri State
-Evansville
-Indiana State
-Southern Illinois

I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur.

The "Problem" for Mid-Major basketball is that there are WAY to many schools right now that have NO BUSINESS being D1 schools right now. It hurts Mid-Major Basketball, in my opinion. There are just way to many "LOW Major" schools watering down the product for true "MID-MAJORS" Teams when it comes to getting multiple bids in Mid-Major Conferences across the country. Too many schools are dragging down the quality teams or teams with potential, imo.

Consider this: The number of Division I colleges and universities has increased from 306 to 350 over the past 20 years. Thats 44 schools in less then 20 years!

This is a truly excellent post. I think Belmont will feel increased pressure. The OVC deal expires after this upcoming year if my memory serves and the move to divisional play could be enough to placate them as it would significantly ease their travel burden. If they get knocked out again in the Conference Tournament, they may get the message that this whole "King of the OVC" notion is a farce and leap to what would surely be a multi bid league with Valpo Murray State and Belmont in the mix. They may also hear the rumblings of other OVC teams leaving which may force their hand even more since the stability of the conference would be thrown into some question. I have thought extensively through many Valley expansion\ travel partner scnearios and really like that divisional setup. I think it suits all parties well and is very balanced in terms of competitiveness. Not too many of the conference's best teams in either division. While I am bearish on the Horizon and the Ohio Valley's future, and go back and forth on the future of the Summit League, I am unshakably bullish on the Missouri Valley's future. I feel that they will continue to be a top ten conference in the nation for a long time as well as the preeminent conference for Midwestern mid major basketball. I also think that your point on D1 athletics becoming watered down is well-taken. I think these schools made this leap with the promise of big cable dollars and have been disappointed. When the cable money starts to really dry up for the smaller leagues, the same factors that will force schools like Belmont to jump to a more competitive conference will force these schools perhaps to return to D2.

[VU2624]

They already have a 13,000 seat arena. Why a new smaller one?

Hoping for a return of the Pistons?

[valpo64]

The proposed new downtown facility for Fort Wayne is, as of now,  not close to being a done deal.  Some ambitious people think it is a great idea but there are many who think the opposite.  The Mayor believes there is an endless pit of money that the people of Ft. Wayne and Allen County have just waiting to be spent on his programs.  Now they want to raise the county income tax to help with the big Riverfront project just getting started in downtown.  Don't bet that the new arena is a done deal...at least not yet.

[VULB#62]

The proposed new downtown facility for Fort Wayne is, as of now,  not close to being a done deal.  Some ambitious people think it is a great idea but there are many who think the opposite.  The Mayor believes there is an endless pit of money that the people of Ft. Wayne and Allen County have just waiting to be spent on his programs.  Now they want to raise the county income tax to help with the big Riverfront project just getting started in downtown.  Don't bet that the new arena is a done deal...at least not yet.

From the diagrams it looks like the plan is to  do a lot of concerts or stage entertainment bookings plus have a floor for basketball. Related to this, does Ft. Wayne already have, for want of a better name, a Performing Arts Center dedicated to non-sports events?  Multi-use facilities don't do justice to most non-sports entertainment that requires better acoustics -- like plays. In Wisconsin we have the Marcus Center in MKE that seats around 2600 and the Fox Valley PAC in Appleton that seats around 2300. These are great venues for shows, touring theater groups and music concerts. If the concert or show demands a larger venue, they book the Resch Center in Green Bay (6800) or if it is really big, the Bradley Center in MKE (12000).

[vu84v2]

Quote from above:

"I wonder if all of this realignment and shuffling will eventually result in conference mergers. I can't decide whether that would be good or bad for mid-major basketball if mergers were to occur."

Two reasons why the mergers of mid-major conferences is highly unlikely:
1. While some stronger programs would welcome a deep 14+ team conference, a majority of programs would reject this because it would reduce their likelihood of getting automatic NCAA bid.
2. Two conferences merging into one would likely reduce the conference administrative staff by almost 50%. Wanting to protect their jobs, most administrators would be motivated to work against conference mergers.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Two reasons why the mergers of mid-major conferences is highly unlikely:
1. While some stronger programs would welcome a deep 14+ team conference, a majority of programs would reject this because it would reduce their likelihood of getting automatic NCAA bid.
2. Two conferences merging into one would likely reduce the conference administrative staff by almost 50%. Wanting to protect their jobs, most administrators would be motivated to work against conference mergers.

Exactly. But you left out the (most important) reason #3: You would have to have dead-bang, 100% certainty (like a shiny new, lucrative TV contract waiting for signatures) that such a league would increase revenues exponentially before you'd get anyone to sign on. No mid-major school is getting in line to have their already-meager revenues split 14 or 16 ways instead of ten without absolute assurances that the overall pie is getting much, much, MUCH larger.

[crusadermoe]

The North-South split makes a loto of sense.  Ironically, the conference is going east too.  But for the better in travel terms.  Hopefully, the Chicago media has a stronger #2 focus on the MVC due to Loyola-Valpo presence as well as Bradley-ISU.

[valpo64]

And don't forget that as a conference expands its geographical area it usually means increased travel expenses, and in some cases a significant increase. 

[VU2014]

If you want to be entertained click & read through this twitter conversation 

Horizon League fans arguing amongst themselves and Valpo gets brought up and including this message board gets trashed by an Oakland fan

https://twitter.com/GrizzTalkOU/status/870333377299218432
https://twitter.com/MR_KJS/status/871788748975071233

[valpotx]

Oakland is jealous. They have been chasing us from the start of their D-1 journey in Men's Basketball, and will continue to do so in perpetuity

[FieldGoodie05]

Oakland aside, have we heard rumblings of any new assistant coach options?

[VULB#62]

We need to put the HL behind us. There is nothing to be gained by focusing on the past.

[VULB#62]

I suggest that this string be archived.

[M]

^^agreed^^. Hit the unfollow button on those bozos and watch them fade in the rear view mirror.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/mid_madness/status/877600611281154048