Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[elephtheria47]

I'm so excited for the Belmont addition. IMO it pushes the league a step or two higher and into the regular multi-bid leagues instead of hanging on the fringes depending on the season, with potential of 3 (4?) teams. Teams will get two additional solid games (hopefully we ditch a nonD1 game?) to help their numbers. Also, Belmont will gain from the MVC for when they make the tourney as well. A few of their teams could have done some damage in the tourney but got seeded too low. We're all upset when an IL St or Belmont has a great season and gets snubbed.

11 teams isn't bad. You can still do a 20 game regular conference season where every team gets to play all the teams twice. I like the teams in the MVC and personally i like watching us play both teams twice. Any # above 11 you'd almost have to go into some sort of divisions. It's a great day for the MVC.

[VUGrad1314]

The league is split on adding Murray because of academics... SMH...

Do the presidents have any idea how much money adding Murray State brings in from the conference tournament alone? This will enhance the league's image and profile possibly lead to a better TV deal and make all of the member institutions more money. Plus it adds Kentucky to the footprint.

https://twitter.com/DaveReynolds2/status/1442885758461911041

[vu84v2]

OK, a few comments on Murray State:
-They have a strong fan base that probably travels better than half of the current MVC.
-Their fan base is not large (but to the first point,, those fans support the team very well). They are in Murray, KY, which has a population of about $35K and it is very rural for about 40 miles around it. Paducah is 45 minutes away - but that is not a big market either. Murray will not provide any substantial power that can leverage better TV deals.
-The academic concerns, if those concerns actually exist, don't make sense. Murray has good academic programs and a commitment to good teaching - I have seen it firsthand. Frankly, I would put Murray on par or better academically than four or five of the current MVC schools (admittedly, this is highly subjective).

[VUGrad1314]

According to Father Harry Public\Private balance is a directive to the new commissioner. So the next add has to be a public. So what's the holdup? Do they think they can get Wichita State back or something? That's not going to happen at least until the Big XII finishes expanding once and for all. Wichita State will stay in as long as Memphis and to a lesser extent SMU are in the league if one of them leaves (especially Memphis) we might have a shot at getting them back especially if the Mountain West loses enough basketball quality (They might be losing Air Force and Colorado State with more potentially to follow and as we all know Boise State is still a candidate for the Big XII). The only publics I see that could be worth adding for the MVC that are realistic options outside of Murray State are Little Rock Northern Kentucky South Dakota State and UT-Arlington (Not my choice but the conference loves them I guess for reasons I will never understand) Of these if we can't (Won't) bring Murray aboard I would want Little Rock by a wide margin NKU and South Dakota State bring geographic concerns and with SDSU I'm not sure their budget could compete with the MVC. UT-Arlington is far away and bad at basketball. Hard pass. Murray State is by far and away the best choice and I hope our presidents are smart enough to see that and bring them in.

https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442930504609656833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1442930504609656833%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

[VUGrad1314]

Also according to the top post in this page of the thread I have linked below, the academic argument is bunk. They actually have tougher admissions standards than several MVC institutions including Valpo.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-930417-page-10.html

Another post on this page (I hope to God it's just message board speculation) says we might be considering IUPUI? I think I might be sick if that happens. That would be even worse than adding Milwaukee.

[vu72]

According to Father Harry Public\Private balance is a directive to the new commissioner. So the next add has to be a public. So what's the holdup? Do they think they can get Wichita State back or something? That's not going to happen at least until the Big XII finishes expanding once and for all. Wichita State will stay in as long as Memphis and to a lesser extent SMU are in the league if one of them leaves (especially Memphis) we might have a shot at getting them back especially if the Mountain West loses enough basketball quality (They might be losing Air Force and Colorado State with more potentially to follow and as we all know Boise State is still a candidate for the Big XII). The only publics I see that could be worth adding for the MVC that are realistic options outside of Murray State are Little Rock Northern Kentucky South Dakota State and UT-Arlington (Not my choice but the conference loves them I guess for reasons I will never understand) Of these if we can't (Won't) bring Murray aboard I would want Little Rock by a wide margin NKU and South Dakota State bring geographic concerns and with SDSU I'm not sure their budget could compete with the MVC. UT-Arlington is far away and bad at basketball. Hard pass. Murray State is by far and away the best choice and I hope our presidents are smart enough to see that and bring them in.

https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442930504609656833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1442930504609656833%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

If, for some reason Murray was passed on, then why not UIC? great academics and another Chicago school.

[VUGrad1314]

According to Father Harry Public\Private balance is a directive to the new commissioner. So the next add has to be a public. So what's the holdup? Do they think they can get Wichita State back or something? That's not going to happen at least until the Big XII finishes expanding once and for all. Wichita State will stay in as long as Memphis and to a lesser extent SMU are in the league if one of them leaves (especially Memphis) we might have a shot at getting them back especially if the Mountain West loses enough basketball quality (They might be losing Air Force and Colorado State with more potentially to follow and as we all know Boise State is still a candidate for the Big XII). The only publics I see that could be worth adding for the MVC that are realistic options outside of Murray State are Little Rock Northern Kentucky South Dakota State and UT-Arlington (Not my choice but the conference loves them I guess for reasons I will never understand) Of these if we can't (Won't) bring Murray aboard I would want Little Rock by a wide margin NKU and South Dakota State bring geographic concerns and with SDSU I'm not sure their budget could compete with the MVC. UT-Arlington is far away and bad at basketball. Hard pass. Murray State is by far and away the best choice and I hope our presidents are smart enough to see that and bring them in. https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1442930504609656833?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1442930504609656833%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

If, for some reason Murray was passed on, then why not UIC? great academics and another Chicago school.

Because they suck at everything but baseball?

[VUGrad1314]

Sounds like there will be another move. We're not sure who it is. Hopefully it's Murray State. But this article mentions Little Rock UT-Arlington Northern Kentucky Milwaukee Denver and others.

https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2021/09/28/belmont-bruins-missouri-valley-conference-missouri-state-ohio-nashville-basketball/5895062001/

I think calling Murray State a logical next step seems to suggest that they MIGHT be the first choice? I hope so.

[Chairback]

Will it take Belmont as long as us to ramp up in basketball?

[VU2014]

Adding IUPUI would be insane. No way. That has to be just someone throwing a Names at the wall and hoping it sticks.

Will it take Belmont as long as us to ramp up in basketball?

I haven't seen their roster makeup. It really depends on the timing of the upperclassman. Many of Valpo's Horizon League Teams were better than the Teams we've ran out there the last 4 years. Timing is everything. If Rowdy and AP's Junior/Senior Teams were coming into the Valley we would have had more early success. Valpo also lost JFL which really hurt but we may have won with the Transfer market this year with our incoming Transfers. D1 basketball recruiting and the whole landscape is so different these days. 

[VUGrad1314]

Will it take Belmont as long as us to ramp up in basketball?

I'll say no. They'll likely do it quicker. They have more stability in coaching than we did entering the Valley and they have better facilities as well as a better location. How much quicker depends on timing as VU2014 said but I have a feeling they'll be a consistent contender within 5 years.

[wh]

Also according to the top post in this page of the thread I have linked below, the academic argument is bunk. They actually have tougher admissions standards than several MVC institutions including Valpo.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-930417-page-10.html

Another post on this page (I hope to God it's just message board speculation) says we might be considering IUPUI? I think I might be sick if that happens. That would be even worse than adding Milwaukee.

I don't think academic considerations like admission standards and SAT scores have any bearing on anything. What the NCAA looks at is APR (Academic Progress Rate). I looked at Murray's for the past several years. They look pretty average to me - no problem years that I could tell. That tells me it isn't about academics.

That said, 10 university presidents took a vote and decided against MSU for some reason. I think we might want to consider that maybe they know what they're doing. It is just possible that that's the case.

[VUGrad1314]

Are you talking about the vote in 2017? Because to my knowledge there has been no vote on Murray State this time. We'll see who #12 is before we judge whether they know what they're doing or not. I mean what could it be? If it's not academics then why are they reluctant to add them? Going for markets works if you find an invested (usually private) school like Loyola and Belmont but it won't by adding Milwaukee or UIC and I want to see Arlington show a pulse in basketball before I consider them for expansion. Do you want to fly all our programs to DFW for a bad program? I sure don't. NKU MIGHT be okay but I'd still rather have Murray. The prowess on the court is just too much to ignore. We all need to be reminded that basketball is and should be the driver here.

Meanwhile if you want a good video on why we should all be excited that Belmont is coming and also an good outline for and against potential MVC expansion candidates here's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3en4npeWKZ4

[may know]

The amount of data and detail in that video is amazing. I'm going to have to screenshot a lot of the slides as he moves fast, particularly that slide at the 12:00.

Great find. Thanks for sharing. I love the coverage this league gets.

[VUGrad1314]

The amount of data and detail in that video is amazing. I'm going to have to screenshot a lot of the slides as he moves fast, particularly that slide at the 12:00. Great find. Thanks for sharing. I love the coverage this league gets.

You're welcome. This channel isn't MVC specific though. He's just really good at realignment research. He does good videos no matter the topic no matter the school no matter the conference.

[wh]

Are you talking about the vote in 2017? Because to my knowledge there has been no vote on Murray State this time. We'll see who #12 is before we judge whether they know what they're doing or not. I mean what could it be? If it's not academics then why are they reluctant to add them? Going for markets works if you find an invested (usually private) school like Loyola and Belmont but it won't by adding Milwaukee or UIC and I want to see Arlington show a pulse in basketball before I consider them for expansion. Do you want to fly all our programs to DFW for a bad program? I sure don't. NKU MIGHT be okay but I'd still rather have Murray. The prowess on the court is just too much to ignore. We all need to be reminded that basketball is and should be the driver here.

Meanwhile if you want a good video on why we should all be excited that Belmont is coming and also an good outline for and against potential MVC expansion candidates here's this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3en4npeWKZ4

I thought you were upset because they voted them down. If they didn't vote them down, what are you upset about? Maybe they'll add them tomorrow, or next week, or next month. What am I missing?

[VUGrad1314]

Are you talking about the vote in 2017? Because to my knowledge there has been no vote on Murray State this time. We'll see who #12 is before we judge whether they know what they're doing or not. I mean what could it be? If it's not academics then why are they reluctant to add them? Going for markets works if you find an invested (usually private) school like Loyola and Belmont but it won't by adding Milwaukee or UIC and I want to see Arlington show a pulse in basketball before I consider them for expansion. Do you want to fly all our programs to DFW for a bad program? I sure don't. NKU MIGHT be okay but I'd still rather have Murray. The prowess on the court is just too much to ignore. We all need to be reminded that basketball is and should be the driver here. Meanwhile if you want a good video on why we should all be excited that Belmont is coming and also an good outline for and against potential MVC expansion candidates here's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3en4npeWKZ4

I thought you were upset because they voted them down. If they didn't vote them down, what are you upset about? Maybe they'll add them tomorrow, or next week, or next month. What am I missing?

Because I'm impatient. They make the league better and that's what I want to see. I want this to be the strongest league it can possibly be. I wanted them in alongside us in 2017. When they went on to win a tournament game in the meantime while we had kind of a lean year in 2019 (Bradley got in as a 15 seed)  I became even more impatient. When Northern Iowa would have missed the tournament in 2020 despite having an at large caliber resume I grew more impatient still. Then we finally broke through and got multiple bids which made me relax a bit Until the instability in the OVC put Belmont and Murray State back in play. I just want this to happen now not later. It helps the league and that's a good thing. Some of the speculation about football being a holdup or the lack of a market Murray State has or the academic concerns even though they're BS make me worried that we're gonna pass on them and bring in some crappy program just because it has better academics or is in a bigger market. I don't want that. I want quality basketball schools. I don't care if they're public private big city small town in the footprint or a bit outside. I want the MVC to get better because that's good for all of the member institutions. And there is no better realistic potential addition out there than Murray State. They are a top 50 program ALL-TIME they would have the most tournament appearances by far of any MVC program and middle of the pack in all time wins and we're seriously squabbling about market and academics when those concerns are unfounded anyway? The whole thing seems ridiculous to me for an athletics league. When you're a conference fighting for the last few at large bids and you have a chance to add a top 50 all time program you add them joyfully gleefully and gratefully, at least in my opinion. You don't let factors that have not affected them or the idea that they aren't an R1 or top 300 university stand in your way. It's not like they're a podunk community college in constant APR trouble. They aren't Belmont or UIC or Milwaukee academically but again why should that matter when this league is about athletic success first and foremost especially when Murray State's academics aren't even that bad?

[wh]

So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that.

You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC.

Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.

[vuny98]

Murray State

I agree... there is a lot more to consider than "are they good at basketball". We know the answer to that, and yes, for our selfish reasons, it would make the basketball conference better talent wise.

But the other factors can't just be ignored. For one, they are <100 miles away from three other schools in conference. That's not exactly expanding the conference footprint. I'm not one that says market size is all that important, but the bigger picture would suggest there is value is reaching new markets.

I am happy we added Belmont. I would have been happy if we added Murray State too. But there very well could be other/better long term options for the conference. If they sat on their hands and did nothing I would think it a mistake. But the fact they acted and added Belmont tells me they are being proactive. I am sure another move will be made. Maybe not this year, but there are multiple options I could see making sense other than just Murray State.

[vu84v2]

So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that.

You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC.

Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.

A conference can certainly function with 11 teams - the Big East has 11 teams and that is over a much wider geographic footprint. The only negative with 11 teams is that your travel costs go up a bit (from reduced effects of the travel partner model).

[VUGrad1314]

So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that.

You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC.

Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.

Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State?

.648 all time winning percentage

31 all time 20 win seasons

17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member)

14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant)

4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) 

In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors.

Street and Smith's Article:

https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx

ESPN article:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497


Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010:

2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant)

3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne

2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne)

1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant)

2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15


4 NCAA Tournament Appearances

3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone?

Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time

https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx


Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised and celebrated leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC.

And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level.  Also the optics of not being willing to stay at 11 for awhile for Murray State but being willing to do so for Belmont in light of all of this information are simply horrible.

Add Murray State. They belong.

[vuny98]

So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that. You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC. Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.

Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State? .648 all time winning percentage 31 all time 20 win seasons 17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member) 14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant) 4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors. Street and Smith's Article: https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497 Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010: 2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant) 3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne 2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne) 1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant) 2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15 4 NCAA Tournament Appearances 3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone? Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC. And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Add Murray State. They belong.

To WH's point and my previous one, this is all 100% accurate but 100% basketball related. The University presidents have a wider view of who to invite to their conference than just are they good at basketball (which yes, they check a lot of boxes there).

[wh]

So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that. You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC. Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.

Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State? .648 all time winning percentage 31 all time 20 win seasons 17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member) 14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant) 4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors. Street and Smith's Article: https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497 Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010: 2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant) 3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne 2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne) 1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant) 2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15 4 NCAA Tournament Appearances 3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone? Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC. And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Add Murray State. They belong.

To WH's point and my previous one, this is all 100% accurate but 100% basketball related. The University presidents have a wider view of who to invite to their conference than just are they good at basketball (which yes, they check a lot of boxes there).

This.

To vuny98's "100% accurate..." comment let me add "and impressively articulated." As to the topic, let me repeat that I'm not saying you're wrong or the Presidents are right. Time will tell. I am willing, however, to give them a lot of leeway. I think they've demonstrated they deserve that level of consideration, given their 3 selections to date since Creighton and Wichita State left.

[VUGrad1314]

So, your position is that the league must go to 12, not 11, that it must happen right now, and that it must be Murray State. Being perfectly honest, that might be a little on the close-minded side. I'm guessing that the 10 university presidents and the conference commissioner operate from a little bigger box at a little higher level than that. You see this as proactively seizing the moment before it becomes a lost opportunity. You see it as so obvious that you're incredulous that they don't see it. You could be right. Then again, maybe they see what you see as a knee jerk reaction to a momentary chain of events that could limit other, possibly better options down the road. After all, it's not like they're asleep at the wheel. They seized the moment to pick off one of the best mid major programs in college basketball and arguably the prize of the OVC. Maybe, just maybe, they're playing a very deliberate, well thought out long game that only savvy, properly measured people operating from a position of strength are capable of.

Your points are well-taken. I only ask what possible prize could be out there that is greater than Murray State? .648 all time winning percentage 31 all time 20 win seasons 17 NCAA Tournament appearances (Would be most of any MVC member) 14 all Americans (including two within the last 10 years Isaiah Canaan Ja Morant) 4 NCAA Tournament wins (More than Evansville Belmont Missouri State Illinois State and Valpo one behind UNI and Indiana State two behind Drake and SIU) In a 2005 article Street&Smith's ranked Murray State as the 52nd best basketball program of all time. In 2008, ESPN ranked them as the 30th best and the highest of the true mid majors. Street and Smith's Article: https://weberstatesports.com/news/2005/2/3/1256671.aspx ESPN article: https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/news/story?id=3493497 Since these are dated pieces I will fill you in on what they've done since 2010: 2 all Americans (Canaan and Morant) 3 NBA Draftees Canaan Morant and Cameron Payne 2 NBA lottery picks (Morant Payne) 1 NBA Rookie of the Year (Morant) 2 seasons ranked in top 25 reaching as high as #7 in 2012 The other one was a #24 ranking in 14-15 4 NCAA Tournament Appearances 3 NCAA Tournament wins (2010 2012 2019) I know this is woulda coulda shoulda but they lost by two in 2010 to eventual runner up Butler. Had that game gone differently who knows how far Murray State would have gone? Oh and a 2020 list by CBS Sports has them now as the 44th best program of all time https://goracers.com/news/2020/11/18/mens-basketball-racers-ranked-44th-in-top-68-all-time-college-basketball-programs-by-cbs-sports.aspx Is there a single realistic expansion candidate for the MVC that can claim even a fraction of this? The Racers are a prize as big or greater than Belmont markets or academics be darned. So yes, even despite the addition of Belmont which is a terrific addition and one that should be praised leaving Murray State out in the cold for another conference to potentially grab would be a failure of massive proportions by the MVC. And I didn't even mention their well-traveled fan base that will pack Arch Madness and bring even more life attention and money to the event and by extension every conference member. Or the ready made rivalries or the potential for even more TV games to improve subsequent media deals all of which Murray State is capable of bringing or the fact that they are working on improving their facilities to compete at a higher level. Add Murray State. They belong.

To WH's point and my previous one, this is all 100% accurate but 100% basketball related. The University presidents have a wider view of who to invite to their conference than just are they good at basketball (which yes, they check a lot of boxes there).

This. To vuny98's "100% accurate..." comment let me add "and impressively articulated." As to the topic, let me repeat that I'm not saying you're wrong or the Presidents are right. Time will tell. I am willing, however, to give them a lot of leeway. I think they've demonstrated they deserve that level of consideration, given their 3 selections to date since Creighton and Wichita State left.

They have. That is a fair statement. Point taken. I get that presidents and I as a fan have different priorities but I just don't care that much if adding a school like Milwaukee or UT-Arlington brings in a handful of additional students when most of that benefit would be eaten up by splitting tournament monies more ways and by travel especially in the case of Arlington. I want basketball power first and foremost because I know that another way to increase enrollment is to win NCAA Tournament games. Making the conference better and preparing our teams better to do that will accomplish far more than adding a school nobody cares about in a big market (again especially true for Arlington). Arlington has the investment but lacks the tradition Milwaukee has the tradition but lacks the investment. Milwaukee had good fan support but it collapsed amid a crowded sports scene when the program went through a rough stretch. Maybe an MVC invite could rebuild that but I'm not willing to take that chance when there is an absolute slam dunk all time great (probably) ready to compete basketball program right in our footprint asking for an invite. That is far more interesting to me than the maybe of an Arlington or a Milwaukee. I want the known quality that is Murray State. If we're going to roll the dice on a market school I'd rather have Northern Kentucky but again it just seems shortsighted to me given the character of the league to pass on a known quantity for a maybe.

[VUGrad1314]

Another thing to consider (Even though Commissioner Jackson says he is not aware of anyone potentially leaving the Valley) is that we need to be thinking basketball power first second and third to make our basketball league too good to leave. There have been whispers especially out of Missouri State that they might want to try FBS and while if they are intent on doing so there is probably not a lot we can do to dissuade them we need to try to make our league so attractive that they and other programs wouldn't want to leave even if they had an opportunity. Our league is great now but it wouldn't be so great if Missouri State and possibly Illinois State and Northern Iowa all bolted for FBS. We need to get the best programs we can while we're in a position of strength because with the shifting dynamics we may not be forever.