Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[crusadermoe]

Totally agree with Valpo84 when he says expansion does nothing for us UNLESS it includes Dayton, SLU, Murray State or Belmont.  I think latter two would need to both come aboard as a pair.

As many on the board know, I think the MVC should think SLU or bust. They are central in the "Missouri" Valley footprint and would get countless financial savings by leaving the ACC.  They will not be offered a Big East invite because they have not performed despite their big arena and large city. 

The MVC should make an all out effort to lure SLU.  Give them a package of tourney host privileges for key sports that could replicate the Arch Madness draw and attract MVC schools to an accessible destination city smack in the middle of the MVC footprint.  Baseball, volleyball, and softball as a starting point. 

[vu72]

Totally agree with Valpo84 when he says expansion does nothing for us UNLESS it includes Dayton, SLU, Murray State or Belmont.  I think latter two would need to both come aboard as a pair.

As many on the board know, I think the MVC should think SLU or bust. They are central in the "Missouri" Valley footprint and would get countless financial savings by leaving the ACC. They will not be offered a Big East invite because they have not performed despite their big arena and large city. 

The MVC should make an all out effort to lure SLU.  Give them a package of tourney host privileges for key sports that could replicate the Arch Madness draw and attract MVC schools to an accessible destination city smack in the middle of the MVC footprint.  Baseball, volleyball, and softball as a starting point. 

The Valley is a great conference but I wouldn't be leaving the ACC!   

[crusadermoe]

Ha!  Ok it's Atlantic something, isnt' it.  Name didn't come to mind.  Shows how low profile it is.   

[VU2014]

I agree that the MVC should aim high with SLU and Dayton but there is almost no chance either would leave the A10 for the MVC, as things currently stand. The A10 would need to sustain significant loss of momentum and schools leaving for the BE to consider the move, which won't happen overnight.

Murray State sounds like the only school willing to make the jump. Belmont is content with being a big fish in a tiny pond for now. We're in a multi-year "wait and see" scenario, with a ton of factors that are out of our control. It's going to be important for the presidents/ADs and the MVC leadership to have a plan and be immediately reactive when possible Power Conference expansion happens and sets off a chain of events. I understand that some want the MVC to be proactive instead of reactive but the options aren't great right now but those things could change with Power Conference Expansion or if the Big 12 eventually breaks up once the TV contracts are up.

[IrishDawg]

Ha!  Ok it's Atlantic something, isnt' it.  Name didn't come to mind.  Shows how low profile it is.

The A-10 is basically the same general level of a league as the MVC and has 18 NCAA bids in the last 5 years compared to the MVC's 7.  The MVC is definitely better travel-wise for them, but considering SLU, VCU and Dayton were all having down years last year and their league still got 3 bids and as many NCAA units as a league as the MVC last year, I'd say the A-10 has more potential league-wide than the MVC going forward.  This is especially true when you look at the spending and revenue those 3 programs generate compared to those in the MVC (those 3 schools had more revenue than the entire MVC by a little under $3M according to the most recent data available).

This isn't meant to knock the MVC, because top to bottom, it still can wind up with a better league rating than the A-10, but personally I don't think this means anyone should be calling the A-10 a "low profile" league.

[valpo64]

SLU's facilities are terrific!  Their National Champ soccer program has a great stadium strictly built for soccer.

[may know]

Dayton would never sniff the MVC.

MVC tried to add Saint Louis with Creighton & WSU and SLU was never interested.

Those 2 schools recruit the East Coast heavily for students & faculty.

A10 is by no means a "low profile" league. Beat out a P5 league a few years ago. 

[crusadermoe]

Yes, on reminder of the statistics et al, the hoops junkies like us will say the A10 is a strong league on par or better with the MVC. 

If I am the parent or family of a student-athlete and paying private tuition do I want to watch my kid play road games and tournaments on the east coast constantly?.....or do I want to be able to travel short distances and have great chances to host tournaments?

I only meant that the "A-10" is a "low profile" in the eyes of Midwestern families who want to stay in their states for college or in nearby ones.  Many parents and kids might view St. Bonaventure, Fordham, and St. Joseph as "who?" .

Whereas their kids might look at Bradley, Loyola, and SLU as logical options on par with each other as private schools.

[VUGrad1314]

Good article on T.J. Otzelberger and  South Dakota State.

https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/8/10/17663014/the-hottest-mid-major-coaching-candidate-south-dakota-state-jackrabbits-otzelberger-basketball

[VUGrad1314]

Posting this here because it may affect expansion decisions

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/2018/08/11/fight-for-fox-local-sports-channels-could-shake-up-broadcasting#gs.r4f1VyY

[VUGrad1314]

Also posted this in the Realignment thread of On the Horizon but I'll put it up here too:

Potentially very interesting. If UMASS to the AAC happens  it will be interesting to see how the subsequent dominos would impact the rest of the  mid-major landscape. I just hope the MVC stays intact and makes a power move of their own.

https://twitter.com/howardherman/status/1035339720107151363

[IrishDawg]

Also posted this in the Realignment thread of On the Horizon but I'll put it up here too:

Potentially very interesting. If UMASS to the AAC happens  it will be interesting to see how the subsequent dominos would impact the rest of the  mid-major landscape. I just hope the MVC stays intact and makes a power move of their own.

https://twitter.com/howardherman/status/1035339720107151363

This certainly isn't what I'd define as a "power move" in terms of realignment.  UMass football is independent and is probably more of the play, along with giving UConn a close opponent that they can actually beat in football.  Honestly I don't see how this benefits the American at all.  Their season in FBS was 4-8 last year, and they've made the NCAA tournament once in the last 20 years.  Maybe they're looking to expand their conference football schedule to more games, and UMass provides enough fodder to get more of their teams bowl eligible?

Even if it does happen, I don't see the A-10 looking to the Midwest at all for expansion if they do anything, so the MVC wouldn't need to make any moves beyond what has been available before.

[VUGrad1314]

Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are

UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only)

With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out

This benefits the AAC in the following ways:

Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part
Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige
Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market
Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding
Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically
Severely weakens a rival conference

My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.

[FieldGoodie05]

Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are

UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only)

With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out

This benefits the AAC in the following ways:

Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part
Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige
Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market
Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding
Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically
Severely weakens a rival conference

My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.

Solid points, I think any shift in mid-major conferences has a ripple effect that conceivably leads to reassessment by conference members.  If the MVC were to lose, say, Illinois State and UNI would that not change the dynamic?  Do other MVC members then not think about their long term future in the league?  The difference being in our conference there really aren't any geographic head scratchers.  The MVC appears to be one of the more geographically well thought out conferences at present.

One other item to consider is conference revenue sharing.  Does anyone know what the AAC distributes compared to the MVC?  We are in a time where Universities are very cognizant of their budgets and large travel expenses that don't increase revenue are likely just not an option.  What schools have the embarrassment of riches necessary to make poor geographic travel decisions in their athletics budgets (mid majors)?  Is SLU thriving?

[VUGrad1314]

SLU definitely has its share of financial worries, or so I have heard. They just don't want to make what many would perceive as a lateral move at best even if it's the prudent one. They want affluent east coast students and to be a national university. A10\AAC\BE membership would give them that MVC membership does not. Honestly it feels mostly like hubris on their part at this point.

[IrishDawg]

Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are

UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only)

With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out

This benefits the AAC in the following ways:

Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part
Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige
Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market
Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding
Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically
Severely weakens a rival conference

My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.

UMass isn't a power in the A-10, so I doubt them leaving would impact any school's decision-making process.  Dayton I can't believe would be involved for the same reason that they can't get into the Big East.  A Cincinnati school would likely want to block them because they are that close.  The American also doesn't really have "geographic fits", because the conference footprint goes from Connecticut to South Florida to Southeastern Texas and up to Kansas.  Basically any school in the eastern half of the United States is a geographic fit.  I could maybe see VCU making the leap, because similar to Wichita, there won't be a Big East invite coming.  However, unlike Wichita, VCU was a very average team last year and I'm not sure with Mike Rhoades they give the American another bid.

SLU is really hoping that Travis Ford works out, because they don't really fit the University profile of a school in the American (I think all but Tulane and SMU are public) and they're about the only other school that the Big East would be willing to add if they were a consistent winner.  I have no idea about their financial woes, but the University did just receive a $50 million dollar donation to start a research institute, as well as a $27 million dollar donation earlier this year from their major athletics donor for their business school, so it doesn't seem like they're hurting for cash.

I also don't think the American conference sees the A-10 as a rival conference.  If they are looking to add schools, it's simply to add more strength if/when the next round of realignment takes place, though at this point if schools like Cincinnati, UConn and Memphis haven't been plucked up yet, not sure what will make a P5 league grab them now.

[VUGrad1314]

I still foresee the leading members of the AAC mixing with the remnants of the Big 12 to create a conference better than the current AAC but worse than the current Big 12.There would still be a P5 but this BE\B12\CUSA hybrid would be behind the other leagues and find it pretty difficult to garner a spot in the Playoff, though they'd still regularly take 4-6 bids in basketball.

[VUGrad1314]

Fair point but the most likely scenarios I keep reading are UMASS (full member or football only) Army (football only) With 1-2 of VCU Dayton and SLU to balance it out This benefits the AAC in the following ways: Gives UCONN a close rival, probably placating them and forestalling any movement on their part Adds a flagship university and a service academy which is a major boon to overall prestige Gets them into the Boston\Springfield market Gives them the whole Army-Navy game which is huge for branding Adds at least one other strong basketball brand that fits well geographically Severely weakens a rival conference My question about the MVC is whether Loyola would be involved (unlikely) or whether Dayton or SLU would seriously entertain the thought of staying in an A-10 where two of VCU UMASS Dayton and SLU are gone. I would have to think that the MVC would start to look pretty good at that point.

UMass isn't a power in the A-10, so I doubt them leaving would impact any school's decision-making process.  Dayton I can't believe would be involved for the same reason that they can't get into the Big East.  A Cincinnati school would likely want to block them because they are that close.  The American also doesn't really have "geographic fits", because the conference footprint goes from Connecticut to South Florida to Southeastern Texas and up to Kansas.  Basically any school in the eastern half of the United States is a geographic fit.  I could maybe see VCU making the leap, because similar to Wichita, there won't be a Big East invite coming.  However, unlike Wichita, VCU was a very average team last year and I'm not sure with Mike Rhoades they give the American another bid. SLU is really hoping that Travis Ford works out, because they don't really fit the University profile of a school in the American (I think all but Tulane and SMU are public) and they're about the only other school that the Big East would be willing to add if they were a consistent winner.  I have no idea about their financial woes, but the University did just receive a $50 million dollar donation to start a research institute, as well as a $27 million dollar donation earlier this year from their major athletics donor for their business school, so it doesn't seem like they're hurting for cash. I also don't think the American conference sees the A-10 as a rival conference.  If they are looking to add schools, it's simply to add more strength if/when the next round of realignment takes place, though at this point if schools like Cincinnati, UConn and Memphis haven't been plucked up yet, not sure what will make a P5 league grab them now.

The AAC really should consider the A10 a rival league.


The first three years of the AAC's existence the A10  finished higher in RPI. Just two years ago, it was just one spot worse. Last year was a serious down year for the A10, but it should rebound within the next two years. Also the A10 has gotten more bids than the AAC since the AAC's inception. If they have a chance to grab teams out of the A10--especially one of the league's better members in VCU who is a great institutional fit-- to secure their advantage into the future, they absolutely should.

Furthermore this isn't about UMASS per se it's about 1. making UCONN happy 2. Getting Army 3. Expanding media presence 4. Weakening a conference of similar strength 5. Increasing the academic profile of the conference UMASS was a top 100 team just 4 years ago which was the last of 4 straight top 100 seasons topping out in the 20s. How much worse is their overall resume than the bottom half of the AAC? The thing is they have ample potential to be a contributing member in basketball and their football team is maturing rapidly.

[VUGrad1314]

Updated budget data which may help inform\influence expansion decisions.

http://www.volnation.com/forum/threads/men%C2%92s-basketball-budgets-2017-18.289490/

[may know]

'UMass to AAC? Don't count on it'
https://www.berkshireeagle.com/stories/howard-herman-designated-hitter-umass-to-aac-dont-count-on-it,549284

I'm lost how some no-name writer asking Aresco about UMass led to the conclusion of some realignment breakthrough. Much ado about nothing.

[crusaderjoe]

IMO, if we're talking about football driven moves, the only ways that a non P5 conference shuffle might affect the MVC (or the MVFC) for that matter would be:

1)  The NCAA requires conferences to have at least 12 members in order to hold a championship game (this would require the Sun Belt to have to add football members); or
2)  The Western section of CUSA decides for some reason to split off and with some Sun Belt members reforms as a resurrected SWC, taking the route of an emphasis on geographical compactness instead of a reliance on media markets to its logical conclusion.  (Again, this would require the Sun Belt to act.)
3)  Somehow and/or someway the WAC sponsors FBS football again;
4)  NMSU receives an oly sport/non football invite by the MVC;
5)  Valpo goes FBS, builds a 35,000 seat stadium on farmland in Wanatah and joins the MAC. 

That's it.  What else am I missing?

[elephtheria47]

Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors,  why dont the mvc do the same?  There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule

[valpopal]

Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors,  why dont the mvc do the same?  There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule

When Valparaiso joined the MVC I supported on this board also bringing Murray State into the conference to make 11 teams and a 20-game conference schedule because I saw the difficulty developing in out of conference scheduling, and I would rather two more conference games against a good team like Murray State than having two non-D1 games on the schedule. I may be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember that MVC coaches were not in favor of a 20-game conference schedule.

[VU2014]

Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors,  why dont the mvc do the same?  There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule

When Valparaiso joined the MVC I supported on this board also bringing Murray State into the conference to make 11 teams and a 20-game conference schedule because I saw the difficulty developing in out of conference scheduling, and I would rather two more conference games against a good team like Murray State than having two non-D1 games on the schedule. I may be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember that MVC coaches were not in favor of a 20-game conference schedule.

There is no way the MVC adds only 1 team. It's 2 teams or nothing. We discussed the reasons why on this thread in the past.

We shouldn't be adding schools because they'd be more interesting opponents than non-d1s. You ONLY add schools to the conference if you think they can help make the conference a multi bid league. They need to be consistent/proven quadrant 1 or 2 opponents. Murray might be the closest to fitting that billing, but you need a 2nd program of the same quality. NKU just isn't a proven commodity yet. I know South Dakota State is the sexy name right now, but Daum is graduating next year and their coach very well might be leaving soon. For me to consider SDSU I'd need to see a larger sample size after Daum leaves.

[valpopal]

Might be a gamble but the Mvc should just announce they are going to expand and go to a 20 game (or more) schedule too. If power conferences are adding more league games and shrinking non-conference games/games possible for mid majors,  why dont the mvc do the same?  There'll be some good teams in the leagues below us that would jump at the chance to be certain of a strong schedule moving forward with the shake ups going on. It wouldn't hurt to add any of the teams mentioned ad naseum on this board already and it may force the hands of a couple of nicer fishes. I know I'd rather watch a game against northern Kentucky or Milwaukee or south Dakota state versus many (all?) of our out of conference home schedule

When Valparaiso joined the MVC I supported on this board also bringing Murray State into the conference to make 11 teams and a 20-game conference schedule because I saw the difficulty developing in out of conference scheduling, and I would rather two more conference games against a good team like Murray State than having two non-D1 games on the schedule. I may be wrong, but for some reason I think I remember that MVC coaches were not in favor of a 20-game conference schedule.

There is no way the MVC adds only 1 team. It's 2 teams or nothing. We discussed the reasons why on this thread in the past.

We shouldn't be adding schools because they'd be more interesting opponents than non-d1s. You ONLY add schools to the conference if you think they can help make the conference a multi bid league. They need to be consistent/proven quadrant 1 or 2 opponents. Murray might be the closest to fitting that billing, but you need a 2nd program of the same quality. NKU just isn't a proven commodity yet. I know South Dakota State is the sexy name right now, but Daum is graduating next year and their coach very well might be leaving soon. For me to consider SDSU I'd need to see a larger sample size after Daum leaves.

I stated that I know the MVC didn't like the idea of adding Murray State with Valpo for an 11-team conference. However, I don't agree with the reasoning. You only need 11 teams to create a 20-game conference schedule. Murray State is a good program that certainly would be added by the MVC if there was a good 12th team to go with them. So, they are worthy. In addition, adding Murray and creating a 20-game conference schedule should increase the strength of schedule for all in the conference, perhaps adding to the possibility of a multi-bid. I believe the positives outweigh the negatives.