Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[valpotx]

Western Illinois makes a lot of sense in the OVC.  It would be the last vestige of the original AMCU/Mid-Con.

[VUGrad1314]

WIU I could definitely see seeking OVC membership. Chattanooga would be a big surprise to me. Yes they would save on travel but they would be giving up a lot in basketball and football strength and prestige leaving the SoCon. It could happen but I wouldn't put that one as very likely. I'd think they would give the newfangled Atlantic Sun a whirl before going to the OVC if they were going to move. In fact I have seen Chattanooga to the A-Sun rumors. Why all of this speculation that they might move? The SoCon seems like a really good fit for them. Are they looking to get into a more public focused conference? Do they have FBS aspirations that the A-Sun might one day potentially fulfill? It just seems odd to leave a strong basketball and football conference  for a league that seems weaker in both unless there is more to this that will become clear in the future (like the Atlantic Sun going FBS for instance). Even then I don't understand leaving a strong basketball league for whatever form the A-Sun takes just to play FBS football possibly as an independent or definitely well outside of the money conferences while adding scholarships  and travel to be FBS. Just seems like a lot of extra costs for not much benefit.

Here's an article advocating for an FBS move for Chattanooga (old from 2019).

https://www.chattanoogan.com/2019/7/2/392726/Randy-Smith-Mocs-Should-Get-Out-Of.aspx

Central Arkansas AD states that Atlantic Sun FBS move could happen.

https://katv.com/sports/content/central-arkansas-leaving-southland-conference-to-join-revamped-atlantic-sun

[RacerJoeD]

In all honesty I'm not sure if there is any truth to either. Chattanooga was a surprise to me as well.

During the last round of MVC expansion, Texas- Arlington was mentioned by folks I talked to, but if public/private split is important that might not be reasonable.

My worry would be that they add a Texas public like UTA and Belmont. Both would fit the OP.

Frankly I would be physically ill if that happened.

[IndyValpo]

In all honesty I'm not sure if there is any truth to either. Chattanooga was a surprise to me as well.

During the last round of MVC expansion, Texas- Arlington was mentioned by folks I talked to, but if public/private split is important that might not be reasonable.

My worry would be that they add a Texas public like UTA and Belmont. Both would fit the OP.

Frankly I would be physically ill if that happened.

You lost me with the Belmont comment.

[RacerJoeD]

UTA is a public, Belmont a private. If the expansion is into Texas, its much more likely that the public comes from there. Otherwise you are looking at Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian.or Houston  Baptist or outside Texas Oral Roberts in Tulsa.  The other thing said in the OP, was that the Texas university would be in a major city. That drops ACU. So then the MVC is looking at Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, or the like. If Texas is home to the public in this scenario, that opens up Texas Arlington. Arlington is between Dallas and Ft Worth, and about 19 miles from DFW airport.

Assuming that public/private balance is required, that would mean that the MVC is probably leaning towards a private in a large city. Bellarmine could be that. But Belmont would fit better with their name being thrown around before.

I don't want that to happen. Not the least of which is that it would screw my Racers.

But, and this is something that made Valpo getting the invite over the Racers in the last round palatable, Belmont has no fan support. None. And that is with a tremendous amount of success. Valpo has huge buy in from their nearby area. They pack the gym, they support their team, and they do so seemingly come hell or high water. Belmont, as a basketball team, would absolutely fit the MVC. As a program who can't sell out their building even when they are good, that doesn't fit, IMO.

[vu72]

UTA is a public, Belmont a private. If the expansion is into Texas, its much more likely that the public comes from there. Otherwise you are looking at Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian.or Houston  Baptist or outside Texas Oral Roberts in Tulsa.  The other thing said in the OP, was that the Texas university would be in a major city. That drops ACU. So then the MVC is looking at Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, or the like. If Texas is home to the public in this scenario, that opens up Texas Arlington. Arlington is between Dallas and Ft Worth, and about 19 miles from DFW airport.

Assuming that public/private balance is required, that would mean that the MVC is probably leaning towards a private in a large city. Bellarmine could be that. But Belmont would fit better with their name being thrown around before.

I don't want that to happen. Not the least of which is that it would screw my Racers.

But, and this is something that made Valpo getting the invite over the Racers in the last round palatable, Belmont has no fan support. None. And that is with a tremendous amount of success. Valpo has huge buy in from their nearby area. They pack the gym, they support their team, and they do so seemingly come hell or high water. Belmont, as a basketball team, would absolutely fit the MVC. As a program who can't sell out their building even when they are good, that doesn't fit, IMO.

Having recently lived in Nashville, I visited the Lipscomb campus to watch Valpo play baseball.  They have a wonderful basketball arena.  Without doing a bunch of research, would Lipscomb be an option for the Valley?

[RacerJoeD]

I have to admit, I have never been to Lipscomb to see a game. Beautiful campus though. I just dont know how much Nashville cares about college basketball. The OVC had their conference tournament there for years and having gone to many of them, there was very little community support at large. In Evansville, a much smaller town, there is real general interest in college sports and the OVC tournament, to the point that during the OVC tournament, there are always good numbers of Evansville locals just showing up to watch basketball. I know its passè to have a conference tournament on a perceived equal's home floor but the facility os great and the people care.

It was bad enough in Nashville, that Belmont's fans couldn't bother to show up or the championship game in the same city. They would turn out maybe 1000 fans at best. There have been years that there were 8000 Racer fans for the same game.

So to answer your question- Lipscomb isn't quite at the same level, IMO, as Belmont basketball wise, but I have no idea about their fan support.

[IndyValpo]

UTA is a public, Belmont a private. If the expansion is into Texas, its much more likely that the public comes from there. Otherwise you are looking at Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian.or Houston  Baptist or outside Texas Oral Roberts in Tulsa.  The other thing said in the OP, was that the Texas university would be in a major city. That drops ACU. So then the MVC is looking at Incarnate Word, Houston Baptist, or the like. If Texas is home to the public in this scenario, that opens up Texas Arlington. Arlington is between Dallas and Ft Worth, and about 19 miles from DFW airport.

Assuming that public/private balance is required, that would mean that the MVC is probably leaning towards a private in a large city. Bellarmine could be that. But Belmont would fit better with their name being thrown around before.

I don't want that to happen. Not the least of which is that it would screw my Racers.

But, and this is something that made Valpo getting the invite over the Racers in the last round palatable, Belmont has no fan support. None. And that is with a tremendous amount of success. Valpo has huge buy in from their nearby area. They pack the gym, they support their team, and they do so seemingly come hell or high water. Belmont, as a basketball team, would absolutely fit the MVC. As a program who can't sell out their building even when they are good, that doesn't fit, IMO.

My bad I misread and thought you were still talking OVC.

[RacerJoeD]

No worries. In all honesty, I probably should have been more clear about what I was talking about.

[VUGrad1314]

UTA is not and has not been a good program since they fired Scott Cross for reasons that still don't make sense. Market or no market I do not want them. If we choose them as a public over Murray State I will be upset even if we also get Belmont. There are so many schools I would rather have than UTA. They have potential but they also seem intent on limiting themselves with bizarre decisions like firing Cross.

[RacerJoeD]

I dont understand the Scott Cross firing either.

[vu72]

I guess both Lipscomb and Belmont don't have great fan bases.  I looked at 2018-2019 season for a sample.  Lipscomb was 29-8 and drew 2369 per home game.  Belmont was 27-6 and drew 2792 per home game. At the same time, Valpo was 15-18 and drew 3126 per home game.

[VUGrad1314]

I guess both Lipscomb and Belmont don't have great fan bases.  I looked at 2018-2019 season for a sample.  Lipscomb was 29-8 and drew 2369 per home game.  Belmont was 27-6 and drew 2792 per home game. At the same time, Valpo was 15-18 and drew 3126 per home game.

You KNOW when it's a big game and Valpo is good we pack the gym. How many games where first place in the HL was on the line had 4500-5000+? We just need to get to that level again and the place will be rocking. That I feel very confident of.

[RacerJoeD]

I have watched the feed for some of Belmont's games... they were counting people passing by on their way to someplace else.

[VUGrad1314]

I have watched the feed for some of Belmont's games... they were counting people passing by on their way to someplace else.

I was talking about Valpo. I know Belmont's attendance isn't great. I'm not sure if MVC membership would help with that or not but really it's on court performance that matters to me. As long as they keep picking off P5 teams in the non conference stacking wins turning in top 50 or so NET ratings and being a threat for at large bids and winning in March they are fine for the MVC in my book even if they don't show up or send a lot of people to Arch Madness. That's what Murray State is for. They can do everything Belmont can AND they show up in droves and will pack the conference tournament. They were and are my favorite expansion choice.

[vu84v2]

There are a lot of reasons to like Murray State - primarily the history of their program (what a great history of coaches!). Good school and nice people too.

But there is one major negative on Murray State in comparison to most any other alternative discussed here (UTA, Belmont, etc.). Murray, KY is in the middle of nowhere. 20,000 person town in which the nearest larger town is Paducah, KY. Thus, no media coverage. Most conferences look for increased media coverage when expanding.

[VUGrad1314]

There are a lot of reasons to like Murray State - primarily the history of their program (what a great history of coaches!). Good school and nice people too. But there is one major negative on Murray State in comparison to most any other alternative discussed here (UTA, Belmont, etc.). Murray, KY is in the middle of nowhere. 20,000 person town in which the nearest larger town is Paducah, KY. Thus, no media coverage. Most conferences look for increased media coverage when expanding.

If we want to succeed we can't think in those terms though. We don't have a large media deal and the amount of exposure we could garner in DFW (UTA) Tulsa (ORU) Dayton-Cincinnati (Wright State and NKU) Milwaukee or Chicago (if we also added UIC) isn't going to do anything measurable for the conference especially if that team doesn't produce. Murray State at least adds ready rivalries with multiple MVC institutions that will boost ticket sales in a way that no other team can. Getting Belmont on board too would add another hot rivalry just with Murray and Belmont playing each other. More than markets it needs to be about programs for us. That's what's going to get our games on TV and maybe boost our media deal a little bit. Having a presence in a market just to have a presence won't do it. If it were simply about markets we wouldn't and shouldn't be here. They should have gone and gotten UIC or Milwaukee the last go round. There's a reason they didn't and I hope they don't abandon that vision just because they finally got multibid status back this year. The most important aspect that the MVC should consider is "Can this program produce on court results?" Full stop. That's why I don't care about Belmont's attendance numbers. Even in spite of that they produce. They win. They get results to a degree really only Murray State can consistently match out of the pool of realistic targets. If we're going to take a swing at a market and our goal is to just get into a new market then we're missing the point. This conference needs to assemble the best of the best at picking off the big boys to get respect. Having a presence in a market won't do it. If it did the HL would be one of the greatest mid major leagues ever. Fortunately four of the last five MVC additions had nothing to do with market. UNI and Missouri State weren't about market. Evansville wasn't about market (if it was about market they would have picked Butler at the time even before Butler became what they did.) Adding us wasn't about market. We can't afford to and shouldn't be willing to buck that trend especially for a public school that tends to be more constrained in what they can do to boost their athletic profile due to smaller endowments and more control over how and what they spend on. Again, there's a reason Loyola was picked over UIC to replace Creighton and it isn't as simple as "the private schools wanted another private school" it was because as a private school Loyola was able to build up faster and in ways UIC could not match. By and large public schools lack this capacity to the same degree which is why using a public school to enter a new market is not a winning strategy for a league trying to stay on the right side of the multibid cutline. Adding a public school with a history and track record like Murray State is however a winning strategy.

[elephtheria47]

I've always thought Murray State should have been added at the same time as Valpo. Every year that doesn't happen is a wasted opportunity.

We've done the small-school-in-the-big-city model before with the Horizon League. As a fan its fun to visit those cities and catch a game, but those cities don't care about the game and they certainly aren't tuning into the game on TV. Give me the solid schools in the small towns where the whole town shows up for the game and theres an electric atmosphere.

[VUGrad1314]

I've always thought Murray State should have been added at the same time as Valpo. Every year that doesn't happen is a wasted opportunity. We've done the small-school-in-the-big-city model before with the Horizon League. As a fan its fun to visit those cities and catch a game, but those cities don't care about the game and they certainly aren't tuning into the game on TV. Give me the solid schools in the small towns where the whole town shows up for the game and theres an electric atmosphere.

This guy gets it! Great job distilling my longwinded point into a few concise sentences!

[oklahomamick]

I attended a Belmont/Valpo game in Nashville.  It was me and some Valpo fans, that's about it.  But they did serve Chick-fil-a

[IndyValpo]

Now this is all rumor so tifwiw

OVC is adding two. The scuttlebutt is Chattanooga and Western Illinois.

As for Peay, I highly doubt the go anywhere. There is very little support in Clarksville.

Remember when the Chicago State AD mentioned the OVC as a possible new location for them.

[VUGrad1314]

Now this is all rumor so tifwiw OVC is adding two. The scuttlebutt is Chattanooga and Western Illinois. As for Peay, I highly doubt the go anywhere. There is very little support in Clarksville.

Remember when the Chicago State AD mentioned the OVC as a possible new location for them.

You'd think they'd want football playing members if they could get them. That said, I'd be very happy for Chicago State if they got into the OVC. That's the most geographically friendly conference they've been in since the Mid Con. The travel cost savings might even possibly allow them to see if those rumored plans of possibly starting football one day (at least at the PFL level) can get off the ground which would be great for them.

[RacerJoeD]

Chicago State would be a bad add for the OVC, IMO. Not saying they wouldn't do it. One thing I can say for sure, the home office in Brentwood has made some pretty poor calls in the past.

[vu84v2]

Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.

[RacerJoeD]

I can appreciate that. My biggest concern is that adding teams to "get into the market" only works when the team wins, otherwise its an expensive mistake. I always think about DePaul and Fordham. Both have some followers in their city and when they win they add more, but are bad often enough that they are ignored by their market.

One of the things that many conferences seemingly fail to do is to do a little market research on their potential adds. The biggest knock for my Racers isn't necessarily the media market (the Paducah/Cape Girardeau/Harrisburg market is ranked ahead of Cedar Rapids and South Bend/Elkhart in size) its that SIU already is in that market. What I can tell you is that SIU is not followed all that closely in the southern part of the media market where Murray State is dominant, and Murray State isn't as prevalent as SIU in the northern part.