Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[FWalum]

The biggest knock for my Racers isn't necessarily the media market (the Paducah/Cape Girardeau/Harrisburg market is ranked ahead of Cedar Rapids and South Bend/Elkhart in size)

Would love for the Racers to become part of the MVC, but I think you are comparing apples to oranges with your media market stats. Yes the Racers Media Designated Marketing Area population is slightly larger than the South Bend/Elkhart DMA only because the physical land area is MUCH larger than the South Bend/Elkhart DMA covering almost 40 counties in 4 states versus 10 counties in 2 states. This is primarily due to population and television/radio station density. This is also a really bad example because the DMA fails to take into account Notre Dame which reaches FAR outside of the South Bend market and on to a national level. Here are images of the two DMA's, like I said, apples to oranges. Murray gets media attention because of its successful program, the huge land area of your DMA doesn't have much to do with it. No knock intended, just keep up the good work on the court.

[VUGrad1314]

Either way having a second team in that market so that we would have the two best teams in it and thereby cover the whole area would be a great move because it's a basketball crazy area. SIU has a strong following especially when they're good and we know how well Murray State fans attend games and travel. I agree keep up the good work on the court but it's past time that the Racers received an MVC invite. I hope Belmont is ready to join but if not and we need a private school maybe we should look at ORU. I know that's anathema to most Valpo fans but they look like they might possibly be back on an upswing and that is another well-supported program when the team is good and they add a terrific baseball program as well. And it solves the issue of Missouri State being such a geographic outlier for the league. There's a lot to like there. I vastly prefer Belmont but if they're STILL not ready to join we should consider whether it's wise to let Murray State continue to suffer for Belmont's stubbornness. 

[RacerJoeD]

My point was only about market size rank population wise. the Paducah market is ranked 84 with a population of around 330,000, while Elkhart/SB is ranked  98 with 277,000. Cedar Rapids is is 90 with 311,000 people. Of course Elkhart/SB is far more dense and for same geographic size would cover a much larger population. Here is the list I'm using. Kinda fun to see where everywhere ranks. https://mediatracks.com/resources/nielsen-dma-rankings-2020/

Historically, Murray State has drawn a majority of their students from that same market overlay, which means you have good market saturation, but it also means that as a school, we are very interested in opening up the region in which we are seen. But back to my original point, the ability to make inroads into a market is much easier in a place like ours, whereas in Chicago, its harder to get a blip on the radar. I guess what I'm trying to say, in a very roundabout way, is that the "TV Market" argument is a really weak one to make as a pro or a con for adding a school, Loyola notwithstanding.

[bbtds]

Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.

The need for Chicago State comes from trying to help a very economically disadvantaged neighborhood that has suffered greatly from systemic racism for a long time. If they shut Chicago State down there would be an outcry from the south side politicians that wouldn't end till another school of that size was built in those neighborhoods again. If you want to forget the African American people of the south side of Chicago and have a gang infested wasteland then go right ahead and shut that school down. The city of Chicago would pay for that move with increased crime and severe poverty for another hundred years. Illinois is trying to step up and help the people of those neighborhoods that have suffered since so greatly since they were brought into this country. If you don't want to pay reparations then you better at least keep CSU open.

[vu84v2]

Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.

The need for Chicago State comes from trying to help a very economically disadvantaged neighborhood that has suffered greatly from systemic racism for a long time. If they shut Chicago State down there would be an outcry from the south side politicians that wouldn't end till another school of that size was built in those neighborhoods again. If you want to forget the African American people of the south side of Chicago and have a gang infested wasteland then go right ahead and shut that school down. The city of Chicago would pay for that move with increased crime and severe poverty for another hundred years. Illinois is trying to step up and help the people of those neighborhoods that have suffered since so greatly since they were brought into this country. If you don't want to pay reparations then you better at least keep CSU open.

bbts: I think that we agree on the need for a university in that location that serves African American students. My argument is that the administration and board for that university have failed miserably in meeting any standard of achievement for that community (their four and six year graduation rates are in the teens or below). I should have been clearer in my recommendation of what needs to be done - fire the administration and board and shut down Chicago State as it stands today. Then, integrate the former Chicago State into UIC (which is much better run). UIC would then evaluate former CSU faculty and retain the faculty members who have demonstrated the ability to support and educate students.

[bbtds]

Chicago State would be a bad add for any conference. Honestly, the state of Illinois needs to consider the excess and inefficient spending and shut down Chicago State - because its performance as a university is awful. Merging the school into UIC would be great for Chicago State's current students and would eliminate administration that is not necessary and has performed poorly year over year.

The need for Chicago State comes from trying to help a very economically disadvantaged neighborhood that has suffered greatly from systemic racism for a long time. If they shut Chicago State down there would be an outcry from the south side politicians that wouldn't end till another school of that size was built in those neighborhoods again. If you want to forget the African American people of the south side of Chicago and have a gang infested wasteland then go right ahead and shut that school down. The city of Chicago would pay for that move with increased crime and severe poverty for another hundred years. Illinois is trying to step up and help the people of those neighborhoods that have suffered since so greatly since they were brought into this country. If you don't want to pay reparations then you better at least keep CSU open.

bbts: I think that we agree on the need for a university in that location that serves African American students. My argument is that the administration and board for that university have failed miserably in meeting any standard of achievement for that community (their four and six year graduation rates are in the teens or below). I should have been clearer in my recommendation of what needs to be done - fire the administration and board and shut down Chicago State as it stands today. Then, integrate the former Chicago State into UIC (which is much better run). UIC would then evaluate former CSU faculty and retain the faculty members who have demonstrated the ability to support and educate students.

I don't believe UIC and Chicago State serve the same people and neighborhoods. I recently have been working with some retail establishments on the south side and also with establishments in the area around UIC. They are so vastly different. If the problem is truly that Chicago State's administration and board has done such a poor job then yes they need to be fired and replaced. I can't believe and don't believe the answer is to remove Chicago State from it's neighborhoods and integrate CSU into UIC. If that is really the answer then you need 2 UIC campuses. One on 95th and the one on Halsted & Roosevelt.

[vu84v2]

bbts - I was advocating for the two campuses (as you stated), but one centralized administration. You could have a separate administration just for Chicago State, but that structure has failed time and time again. Chicago State's graduation rates (four year, six year) are among the worst in the nation (College Factual). The sizes of their incoming classes have dwindled dramatically (prior to the pandemic). Retention of students from the first to second year is poor. By most any measure, the school's performance is appalling...which means that they are failing to serve the people that you correctly say are most in need of an education. The State of Illinois' actions to improve Chicago State have been to "throw money at it", but something far different needs to be done to create change.

I do appreciate you raising some excellent points regarding what is important.

[VUGrad1314]

Gross. Please for the love of God no to UT-Arlington at all costs.

https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/

[valpotx]

I don't think that UTA would be added, but wouldn't mind if they were, as I could see Valpo in-person each year .  My wife did her undergrad at UTA, before getting her law degree at the University of Houston, and even though she doesn't care about Mavericks sports, it would give me bragging rights every time we beat them. 

[wh]

Gross. Please for the love of God no to UT-Arlington at all costs.

https://www.extrapointsmb.com/conference-realignment-mvc-sun-belt-ut-arlington-belmont-cleveland-state/

UTA is 1000 miles from Valpo. For context it's about the same distance as Jacksonville, FL or Portland, Maine. Every team, every sport, male and female would have to take long commercial flights to and from, most likely out of ORD or MDW. Every trip would require 3 full days away from campus, 2 nights lodging, multiple group meals, bus transportation for multiple stops over 3 days, missed class time on steriods, etc., etc. Now consider that the best accomplishment on their men's bb resume (which is all that counts) is they've had a few winning seasons, meaning we split tournament revenues 11 ways instead of 10. There are programs with much better resumes than that within 250-300 miles or less. And, just how exactly would adding UTA be a boon to anyone's recruiting, including theirs. Join UTA so you can fly all over the place to communities you've never heard of and where your loved ones can't see you play against another mid-major team.

These alleged conversations either didn't happen, or possibly they were talking about something else n a completely different context, but I seriously doubt it.

[M]

Hopefully they just don't do addition by subtraction, am I right 

[RacerJoeD]

Putting together a couple rumors (and that is all they are at this point is rumor)- Texas Arlington and Little Rock

[justducky]

Putting together a couple rumors (and that is all they are at this point is rumor)- Texas Arlington and Little Rock

At first glance I am reluctant to even take a second glance.

[wh]

Putting together a couple rumors (and that is all they are at this point is rumor)- Texas Arlington and Little Rock

At first glance I am reluctant to even take a second glance.

That makes all the difference. Travel partners - why didn't I think of that? Never mind that they're 350 miles apart, or that they finished 6th and 10th in conference this year, or that Little Rock is 670 miles from Valpo. Or maybe they're slowly working their way north with the intent of adding Belmont, MSU, and a few more along the way with the end result being a 20-team super mid conference with a border-to-border footprint. Who knows?

[valpotx]

I get why UTA and UALR would have interest, as they are non-football playing schools, and the football conferences are under pressure to get all-sports programs.  However, I would not be impressed with these two schools, unless you think of it from a pure market exposure perspective.

[elephtheria47]

Ew. Just threw up in my mouth. Absolutely not.

[78crusader]

Mystified by all this MVC expansion speculation. Subtraction by addition.

Paul

[usc4valpo]

SFA? Is there a will there's a way

[wh]

As I've said before, us talking about adding better programs to the MVC to elevate our profile is like mediocre employees sitting in the lunch room pontificating about how the company should add some better workers to improve productivity.

Not a good look.

[valpotx]

Nacog-nopers, usc

[VUGrad1314]

I believe that expansion should be based on these four criteria:

1. Consistent regular season performance (ability to generate Q1 and Q2 games for the conference and strong OOC records)

2. The ability (or the potential) to win in March (This is huge Tournament credits are the only real motivation for expansion)

3. Strength in at least one (or more) sport(s) that the MVC values other than men's basketball. Those are: Women's basketball baseball volleyball softball)

4. The footprint should be a consideration but not the be all end all. Try to stay reasonably compact georgraphically but we can expand even somewhat significantly for the right additions.

With that in mind here is what I believe should be the shortlist of candidates from which we pick 2 with perhaps an eye toward taking more in the future if they continue to show promise:

Murray State

Belmont

Wright State

Northern Kentucky

South Dakota State

North Dakota State

Oral Roberts

Little Rock

Beyond this, no thank you at this time. Though I would say there are some schools that would comprise a "watch list" that could make the cut in the future if they do well. Those are:

Milwaukee

St Thomas

UIC (especially if we ever lose Loyola)

South Dakota

MAYBE Austin Peay but I think they're going to go to the Atlantic Sun unless the A-Sun can find a better option

Lipscomb

Bellarmine

If I'm being honest though It's Murray and Belmont for me then a tier break then ORU Wright State NKU SDSU Then another tier break and then Little Rock and NDSU (Good athletic department just too far)

[valpo95]

I agree with the assessment of VUGrad1314.

The one that will be interesting is to watch St. Thomas - I'm clearly not advocating they join the MVC right now, yet they will quickly establish themselves in D1 where they start competing this fall. They have a very strong athletic program in all sports, an endowment of $500M+ and very good academics. Specific to basketball, they have (I think) won two D-III national titles over the last decade. They also are now the second basketball D1 program in Minnesota, so will be able to compete for quite a bit of talent that is in the region. (Indiana has about a million more people, yet has eight D1 programs and also gets recruited hard by all of the surrounding states.) St. Thomas is joining the Summit League, and the Pioneer Football League. By the way, given their success in football, I'd guess that they are instantly one of the top teams in the PFL.

[elephtheria47]

I know its short sighted, but this year changed my current thoughts. If we add, I really only want to add Murray State to the Missouri Valley. We established that we can still be a 2 bid league in our current version and why split that pot further? Adding another team isn't going to get us to 3 bids. But, Murray State is strong, has national name recognition, and a great fanbase which will add some energy into the conference. They would likely prove to be a quality add that moves the needle and is capable of making a run in the NCAAT. (Is someone like Belmont really going to inject energy or excitement with a lackadaisical fan base?) IMO, the discussion should end with Murray State (and monitor those other programs for possible consideration as a replacement if/when someone else leaves). As the article above mentioned, if conferences are looking to reduce travel/restrict its area, will someone like St Louis be looking to move in a few years?

[usc4valpo]

disagree with 1314. Why not SFA? Proven excellence in men's and women's basketball. cripe, the men's team beat Duke at their home court! Good teachers college like Illinois State and UNI. beautiful campus in the Piney Woods. decent fan base. Hours from two major metro cities. Perfect fit for the Valley.

[VUGrad1314]

If we're expanding into Texas SFA is the program I would want I just don't see them as an option at this point given their move to the WAC. You don't see schools jump around that much in a short time period. It's not that I wouldn't welcome SFA with open arms into the MVC it's that I don't see them as an option.