Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[valpo64]

Certainly some of you  are not saying or implying that MSU and Loyola are or were on the same level for consideration for MVC membership, are you?  Their situations are miles apart.... from markets, overall programs, academics,  etc.  A good conference has schools that are well respected for academics and overall reputations and location/market.  An example is Rutgers in the Big 10....their membership certainly was not based on their athletic prowess.

[wh]

The facts are Loyola's facilities, budget, donations, and level of recruits are significantly higher than they were in the 2000s. None of that is "subjective descriptors" (except maybe recruiting rankings).

In all due respect, facilities, budget, and donations are completely subjective descriptors in terms of what direct impact they may or may not have on wins and losses. For sake of argument, I'll grant you "level of recruits" as being a more direct predictor of success. That said, until we see these better recruits perform without their talent anomaly Krutwig, no one has a clue (even though they think they do) that Loyola will remain a dominant team over the long term. Let me remind you that we have had 2 once-in-a-generation players that we all thought would have a huge residual effect after they were gone. To some degree it did, but we were never as good as we were when they were here.

[vok22]

Again, not saying they are going to continue being a perennial sweet 16 team. Just think that their recent success has brought in talent that will at least keep their floor at a high level for the next few years.

[bb33]

I do think that Loyola's success has positively impacted their enrollment.  Kids are now considering Loyola as an option who may not have before.

[bbtds]

VUGrad1314 - Your devotion to Murray State is only matched by your disdain for commas. 

How about you adding some paragraphs to make it easier to read?

[wh]

VUGrad1314 - Your devotion to Murray State is only matched by your disdain for commas.

How about you adding some paragraphs to make it easier to read?

'1314 is one of my all-time favorite posters. Pure unabridged passion at it's best. What great fandom is all about.

[bbtds]

GPA is also a misleading reference point. A 3.0 at an Ivy League school vs a 3.0 at a local community college are two very different things.

Yet the NCAA doesn't make any distinction between a 3.0 at Harvard compared to a 3.0 at IUPUI when rating the academic side of athletic teams.

[VUGrad1314]

The market schools will always be there. UTA and Little Rock are not going to find better landing spots than the MVC if they leave the Sun Belt. Any HL school we want would come to the MVC at the snap of a finger. We can add markets any time we want especially while most of those big market schools are in down cycles; but even in up cycles, they would be looking for the kind of challenge the MVC can provide. While it's true that Murray State is probably in the same boat in that they won't find a better option, I'm of the belief that the best thing we can do for ourselves right now is to build up our product both among the current MVC membership and with the most attractive games and programs possible.

This year was our first multibid season (hopefully of many) in the post-Wichita State era and it's important to remember that it almost didn't happen as Drake was the last team in and picked up two additional Q2 opportunities thanks to COVID scheduling that they thankfully cashed in on @Missouri State and @Indiana State over the Q3 games they would have gotten in a normal year had they played them in the traditional home and home. I have no doubt that this made a difference given the razor thin margin Drake ended up on the right side of this year.

Nevertheless, thanks to our newly-restored multibid status the success of Loyola and Drake's victory over Wichita State in the First Four, I believe it is fair to say that we have fended off the perception that Wichita State's departure would be the end of the conference's relevancy; however, I still believe there is more work to do to raise the floor of the conference and put it on more solid footing for both the selection committee and future TV deals. If we want to become a true multibid league well-into the post-COVID era when all of the extra eligibility that is going to create a super deep MVC the next couple of years, we need more depth in the conference. More quality programs to provide more Q2 and (maybe even Q1) games to get the committee's attention and also make the conference more valuable down the line. Belmont was a terrific first step in this process and what's more, they add a market. Furthermore, I will not deny that having access to the Chicago market, playing in St Louis, and having several teams that are in what Belmont seems to consider fertile recruiting territory in Illinois and Indiana probably helped the MVC land the Bruins just as much if not more than the MVC's prowess on the court did.

Still, I believe that Belmont alone may not provide the depth we need and that Murray State is the logical second step in this process. They would benefit in many of the same ways Belmont likely will in recruiting while providing a mutual benefit to the MVC of another high-quality winning program.  Yes, we have an impressively deep list of teams who have succeeded recently in Loyola Drake Bradley UNI and Missouri State who has been pretty solid/ SIU Evansville and Valpo are rising as well, but we're still not quite where I believe we can be or need to be as a conference at least not consistently yet.

Like Belmont, Murray State helps us get there in ways the other programs just can't right now. Once we are on solid footing as a multibid league with lots of high quality TV games,  then we can look more seriously at markets without damaging our brand too much if they don't produce. Once we have a product to sell that networks want, if the networks say we'll make more money by adding X Y or Z markets, then we can easily add to our profile with further expansion. Taking this approach could net us some real money and put those markets to work for us while adding to the academic quality of the conference and opening up further enrollment\recuriting opportunities. But right now, I believe that the practical pragmatic solution for the MVC is to pursue the best basketball brands we can get while we are in a position of strength to make ourselves even stronger and give ourselves staying power down the road. Then the markets can and will come and benefit us more as I've said. Right now, in this building phase, I believe that it is okay if academics take a slight back seat to athletic prowess right now. We can always balance that out later if the need or financial incentive should arise.

It is important to remember, however, that markets and academics alone don't make for a successful conference. Performance matters too. Conferences don't make money just because they have a bunch of high quality academic institutions. They make money in the sports world which can and does fund academics because they have a product to sell and that product performs and entertains. Make no mistake, media money is important-- just ask Oklahoma Texas BYU Cincinnati Houston and UCF the latter three of which broke away from schools like Tulane and Tulsa Temple SMU and South Florida all of whom have pretty decent academic clout and the prestige of a military academy in Navy to make a run for the cash in the SEC and Big XII respectively. Moreover, those schools and even the Eastern exposure they would bring weren't enough to sway Air Force and Colorado State both of whom also have very solid academic reputations to join. Why? Because they were concerned that the AAC's performance less their Big 3 would not justify the expense and upheaval of a conference move relative to what they already have in the Mountain West. Gonzaga is probably going to eventually leave the West Coast Conference--a perfect academic and institutional fit--for the Mountain West in a few years for the exact same reason. When Wichita State was admitted into the AAC, I assure you that the school's academic profile was not the leading criterion used to justify that invitation.

This is what I mean when I say that to dismiss a high performing program that can help your performance on the court on academic grounds is short-sighted stupid and reckless, especially in a league like ours that is fighting for every breath of air and ounce of exposure it can get.  I would even argue that in our world--the world of the mid major with small media deals and smaller athletics budgets--performance matters even more because it's our only shot at national relevance and the easiest way to get our schools into the minds of perspective students for potential enrollment. People don't pay attention to the MVC and haven't ever paid attention to the MVC because of their impressive gaudy academic reputations; they pay attention because the athletics--the front porches to the member institutions--look good. The academic criteria matter mostly to University Presidents and to individual applicants. I doubt more than a handful of students are going to choose Valpo because they're in the same conference as Milwaukee or UTA or Little Rock or Wright State or NKU and most of them are going to be athletes looking to get away but still play close to home occasionally anyway. Is that really worth making a suboptimal addition to your overall profile in your flagship sport which is one of your main recruiting tools when you break through and do well? By the same token, nobody is going to NOT pick Valpo or Drake or Bradley or Illinois State or Belmont or UNI or Missouri State or Evansville or SIU or Loyola or Indiana State because they would DARE stoop so low as to associate with the likes of lowly Murray State. They are going to pick the school whose programs size academic rigor and institutional character best suits their needs wants and personality and yes some ARE going to choose a school in part because of athletics (I did even though I'm not an athlete. Outside of the Ivy League or the Big 10 or the Pac 12 or conferences like that no applicant is going to give much thought to the schools that the school they are considering chooses to associate itself with. Overall institutional fit matters (size and public\private) but specific schools really don't or shouldn't as long as that basic criteria is met and it is met for all MVC institutions or this conference wouldn't exist as it has. Furthermore, if the academic quality of a conference mattered AT ALL to student enrollment why has Belmont's enrollment exploded despite being with schools for the past ten years that aren't so great academically (many of the OVC schools have had fairly recent APR trouble but not to my knowledge Murray State)? Belmont has succeeded because people like Belmont conference affiliation or the teams associated with it don't matter too much to most individual applicants and have little impact on enrollment. This is one reason why I believe the academic arguments against Murray State are overstated and irrelevant. You're not damaging your school by associating with them but given their performance on the court and the fan support that they have which brings eyeballs you might help it a bit more than you think.

Valpo as an institution (same with Loyola Drake Bradley really most MVC institutions) sells itself. If we put our minds to marketing our university we can and do attract students. As we have shown, we don't need Milwaukee in the conference to recruit Wisconsin any more than Belmont needs the increased exposure the MVC will provide in those areas to recruit Illinois and Indiana. If we tried harder in places like Arkansas and Texas we probably wouldn't need Little Rock or UTA to sell our institution for us there either. People are going to find out about and come to Valpo if it's right for them. The exposure in the market can help but it shouldn't be a driving factor in admission to a conference. It should be one among many and should be considered alongside overall performance. Performance+market can make a great add (like Belmont) but we shouldn't just blindly chase markets with teams that aren't performing and don't draw or get coverage in their own markets.

According to the D1360 video for all of the academic credentials and all of their markets of Milwaukee UIC UTA and Little Rock (all four of these schools are in top 80 markets and all are either R1 or R2 with Little Rock being the only R2 and the only one outside a top 40 market, none of them draw more than 2000 fans per game over a 3 year average. What has the market done for them? All these schools have going for them is academics (although Milwaukee and Little Rock at least have some history). If this is how they draw against lesser brands what will happen when they come in and get beaten up by even better brands? Not every school is going to have the ability or the will to be like Loyola and make efforts and improvements just because they're in a better conference (though admittedly UTA is doing some impressive work as has Belmont which has helped get them in). Some are skeptical of Belmont because of this very reason (fan support) but Belmont's numbers dwarf all four of these candidates even in a saturated college sports market and against OVC competition. Each of these four schools plays on average better brands than Belmont has and they still can't outdraw the Bruins. I believe that playing better brands will only make that discrepancy larger. This baseline of high performance and their performance in the post-Rick Byrd era give me hope that this move will have the desired outcome for both school and conference and that both will realize gains from this partnership. I don't have the same confidence in these other schools because of their lack of performance over the past 15 or so years with Little Rock being the exception of having a couple years where they flashed and surprised a team in the first round of the tournament even though as the video points out that their overall average isn't good. I do not believe that Belmont's performance was irrelevant or a negligible factor in their admission even though they check all the academic and market boxes. All of that helped, but their performance helped a lot too; and it should absolutely be a heavy factor in all expansion decisions. Can this program actually contribute or would they just be taking up space and leaving us all praying we can somehow find enough exposure to pull enough students to justify their inclusion? The MVC is one of only seven conferences where every member has won at least one NCAA Tournament game in their history. That matters to me and it should matter in expansion discussions. I understand there are more ways than athletics to make money but athletics can make money too and plenty of it. 

In light of this information, I have to ask ask if adding a market school is worthwhile given the likely negligible effects on student enrollment and the lack of fan support which will be harder to sustain playing better programs because these programs are sure to take more losses. In addition, I must ask which you believe is more worthwhile in terms of branding and exposure, playing in bigger markets where your competition is an afterthought and doesn't draw or playing in teams whose markets are not so impressive but who support and pay attention to their teams? Which path is going to lead to more students learning about and potentially committing to Valpo? One of the best things about the MVC is that these teams DO get coverage in their own markets small though many of them may be. Murray State is no exception here. As we remember from our Horizon League days, most of the Horizon League teams are afterthoughts in their own market and few of them (outside of like NKU Wright State Oakland and perhaps Robert Morris but I haven't looked at their attendance numbers) draw fans. Markets don't mean anything if you don't control them and none of the market teams we are talking about have great market share in their markets even though NKU and Wright State have decent attendance numbers that might be helped by MVC inclusion. Meanwhile, Murray State may inhabit a small town but their fans show up to support their team and they travel well. They make bank in ticket sales and their attendance is the best of the expansion candidates and would be top half in the MVC right away. That matters. One of the draws of the MVC to me when we joined was the fact that unlike many of the HL teams the fans in the MVC care about and support their teams. They get media coverage locally and a great deal of it. It has been a great spot for Valpo because of this. In fact, as the D1360 video showed, our enrollment is up over the past 10 years by 9%. We're actually doing well all things considered. By contrast, Murray State's is down 9% but is actually doing better than any other candidate in this regard except UIC and UTA. When you take a deeper look at Murray State's institutional profile you see that it really isn't that bad and I have firm belief that getting the Racers exposure in central and southern Indiana and Illinois as well as them holding onto the chance to play in the Nashville market may very well help reverse their negative enrollment trend in and of itself especially if they come in and hit the ground running with a winning program from the start. I understand that hitting the ground running in the MVC  isn't likely given the initial struggles of recent MVC additions, but it is certainly possible.  Their performance pre-admission is MVC level, their facilities are MVC level, their fan support is MVC level. They don't bring a market but they do bring fans and that is a good thing for the conference. The rivalries they would create are good for the conference and potential TV deals especially if the Racers perform to their capabilities and their academics\enrollment trends etc. aren't that bad.

The Racers' profile has warts to be sure but so does\did every successful MVC expansion candidate. Loyola had the market  the money and the academics but not the recent performance and their facilities were okay but not great which they are rectifying. Their fan support wasn't great before but is steadily improving. We had the performance and the academics but not the facilities or the market but we are still beginning to show that we belong. Our fan support has been okay all things considered and certainly could and should be better but our endowment growth has been impressive. Belmont has the market the facilities the performance and the academics but debatably not the fan support. Their growth has been impressive. They are what we hope any big market team would become if we ever added them. But that begs the question, since we already have a team that likely represents the best case scenario for any big market team we would add to our conference--two of them in fact if we count Loyola and I believe they absolutely should count here given the risk we took and their performance since their admission to the conference-- why would\should we add another big market team hoping that they become another Loyola or at least another Belmont when what we need the most right now through the expansion process is some more top or at least mid level performers to strengthen the conference overall and futher secure our status as a multibid league in perpetuity?

Murray State has the performance and the facilities and the fan support but not the market or (debatably) the academics and they could certainly stand to grow their endowment which they probably will do\are doing now. However, I still believe that they check enough boxes that the warts in their resume should not override their candidacy and that they are  the program best suited for the current needs of the MVC which is to add depth of performance in the conference in order to secure a permanent place at the at large bid table. Once that place is assured, we can look to grow and branch out in other ways if we so choose and if the benefit is there to augment other important factors such as markets and overall academics among our member institutions. Right now, however, our first priority should be to make an already good conference a great conference. Everything else can and will take care of itself, but performance should drive the engine of growth for the MVC right now. The shoring up of the market and academic profile of the MVC can come later. Make no mistake, markets and peer institutions are important; but they matter less than you think in enrollment. By contrast, on court performance and fan support within your conference matter more than you think and should not be dismissed as important factors in their own right.

[Just Sayin]

War and Peace. Vol.2

[bbtds]

War and Peace. Vol.2

Yes, but how many more posts of complete nonsense do you have?

At least he used paragraphs!

[VUGrad1314]

War and Peace. Vol.2

Yes, but how many more posts of complete nonsense do you have? At least he used paragraphs!

Engage with the argument or kindly stay out of the discussion if you have nothing whatsoever to contribute. Sorry I couldn't condense my points down to a short punchy meme or picture or quip like other posters are able to do so ably. Let me go about this another way then:


Why do I say that market size is pretty irrelevant for leagues like ours? Because it is.  I already brought up the point about how adding a bunch of markets did nothing for Conference USA. You can't find their games and nobody's interested. Looking only at basketball focused leagues, if markets mattered the HL would be the most sought after mid major conference ever. They have presence in so many top markets (#3 Chicago #14 (Detroit) #19 (Cleveland) #24 (Pittsburgh) #25 (Indianapolis) #35 (Milwaukee) #37 (Cincinnati)  #67  (Green Bay) #110 (Ft Wayne) #115 (Youngstown). Many of these dwarf the MVC markets and yet.... No fan support (outside of a few teams) limited coverage and they couldn't even make a neutral site tournament work for them despite having not one but two programs in or near the host city. We have seen these things firsthand as Valpo fans. It's no secret that MVC fanbases show up more on average than HL schools despite their impressive markets.


As for academics despite having an R1 or R2 designation, here are the enrollment trends for the possible expansion candidates as mentioned in the D1360 video on Belmont's admission over the past 10 years:


UIC +28%


UTA +28%


Milwaukee -17%


NKU[size=78%] -18% [/size]


Little Rock -37%


Wright State -40%




So the R1 and R2 designation doesn't seem to be doing much for many of these schools. Meanwhile lowly little regional Murray State has experienced only a 9% drop in enrollment over that span. There may be other factors at play but clearly impressive markets and academic profiles aren't doing enough to attract students to many of these schools while Murray State has been relatively insulated from this trend. Yes, enrollment is down lots of places but this just provides yet another reason against the power and pull of these factors at our level.


Is that fact-based and reasonable enough for you or am I still spouting nonsense?

[wh]

Looking only at basketball focused leagues, if markets mattered the HL would be the most sought after mid major conference ever.

You just landed a major blow to the "major market" argument. Loyola's recent tournament success not withstanding, Chicago is not nor ever will be a mid major college basketball town. Well played.

[bb33]

I do think the Chicago was behind Loyola during the tournament run.  And Sister Jean added to the appeal. That being said,  when they are not making a tournament run, I don't think the general market gives them a second thought. Or DePaul for that matter.  I find most people are deeply rooted in the Big Ten teams or Notre Dame.

The fan base is much more important than geography. Big city does not mean big following.

[wh]

This discussion is interesting, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what we think. The presidents' expansion committee chair has already said, "...and, we're not done yet." Clearly, they have someone(s) in mind. The only question is who (or whom for our resident pedants). If we took a poll, I'm guessing most people would pick Murray State as the most obvious choice. I would agree, except for one thing. Every mention of Murray State being considered the first time or this time gets leaked like a sieve by one source or another in Murray land. And yet, the Murray rumor mill been eerily silent ever since Belmont was announced. That has me wondering.

[usc4valpo]

I was glad Valpo joined the MVC. I just wish Valpo would just not leech as a MVC member in the conference and become a bigger and better contributor. Our teams are in the bottom half of all sports and our facilities are embarrassing. It's time to step up. Valpo needs to walk the walk, the honeymoon is over.

That being said, for the MVC to expand, think about schools with growth potential. Outside of the box, how about SFA (yes, a WAC member but who knows where that will go). But as a real dark horse, how about NW Missouri St.. in Div 2? They have been outstanding for several years and have great facilities and it's a great teachers college traditionally like UNI and Illinois.St.

[VUGrad1314]

No D2 call-ups also aren't we second in volleyball and tied for first in women's soccer? I'd say we're really starting to turn the corner athletically  based on those early returns. As for your expansion idea No to any D2 call up. Potential or not that is just not the route we need to be going. Let them prove that potential in another conference first. Finally, it appears our new president wants to make ARC renovations or perhaps even a new building a priority in the next fundraising drive. I like what I'm hearing and it sounds like we're finally stepping up. I hope he keeps his word and makes that a reality.

[usc4valpo]

1314 - good points but trust me on this - with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team.  Their players are better fundamentally, have height, talent - they would have wiped Valpo off the floor. My thought is out of the box and it's a university on the upswing.

SFA would be an ideal MVC candidate. Tapping into the Texas market where student are from Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston make sense. also, we can get Buc-ees, the greatest interstate stop chain in human existence, to sponsor the MVC tournament!

Regarding Valpo progressing with facilities - those are nice words but how long will this take? Actions are required expeditiously.

[valpopal]

...aren't we second in volleyball and tied for first in women's soccer? I'd say we're really starting to turn the corner athletically based on those early returns.

Add Women's tennis:
[tweet]1447245804998103040[/tweet]
[tweet]1447216503888166917[/tweet]

[wh]

1314 - good points but trust me on this - with the exception of Loyola, NW Mo St bastketball last year was better than any MVC team.  Their players are better fundamentally, have height, talent - they would have wiped Valpo off the floor. My thought is out of the box and it's a university on the upswing.

SFA would be an ideal MVC candidate. Tapping into the Texas market where student are from Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston make sense. also, we can get Buc-ees, the greatest interstate stop chain in human existence, to sponsor the MVC tournament!

Regarding Valpo progressing with facilities - those are nice words but how long will this take? Actions are required expeditiously.

If I recall correctly, SFA has one of the worst APR's in D-1.

[usc4valpo]

The low APR at SFA was doe to a documentation error by the administration. Either way, since they are upset of dealings with SEC schools, the NCAA responded by giving another school 3 years probation, just like the process for Cleveland State the great Jerry Tarkanian would say.

Cripe,  the NCAA is almost dead, just let it go away.

In reality, SFA academically is similar to the Valley state schools and better than Drake, which has lower academic standards than the 3 Iowa state schools.

[vu72]

Our teams are in the bottom half of all sports a

Ignorance can be blissful. Not to mention our men's golf team which will compete for a championship, our women's basketball team who beat two Big Ten teams and lost to a third in overtime. Even our men' team tied for fifth. 

Try to do a little research before posting your blanket statements.  As for timing of ARC improvement, it will be small upgrades for probably the next five years or so.  Incremental positives (and related costs) are being made--new baskets and floor this year, the new practice facility recently-- while major costs in other sports continue to be made--like internet broadcast abilities now at softball and baseball, plus the new turf at Em Bauer.  Yes, it's slow. Money is all that's needed.

[usc4valpo]

Success in third level sports the majority has no concern about and will be gone in the NCAA is not what I'm referring to.

All joking aside I get your point. I just want a legit facility for basketball. The high school gym doesn't suffice.

[Valpower]

Try to do a little research before posting your blanket statements.  As for timing of ARC improvement, it will be small upgrades for probably the next five years or so.  Incremental positives (and related costs) are being made--new baskets and floor this year, the new practice facility recently-- while major costs in other sports continue to be made--like internet broadcast abilities now at softball and baseball, plus the new turf at Em Bauer.  Yes, it's slow. Money is all that's needed.

Speaking of incremental improvements, it'll be interesting to see how the alcohol sales affect attendance and revenue.  They say you can't lose money on alcohol and, to me, there's no doubt it's a draw, so I hope it's potential downsides can be managed successfully.

[usc4valpo]

My feeling is having a beer and being entertained goes hand in hand. It will make the experience better, and in our multitasking world a beer or 2 is always welcoming.

[VALPO LI]

My feeling is having a beer and being entertained goes hand in hand. It will make the experience better, and in our multitasking world a beer or 2 is always welcoming.

-just hope one will not have to wait on long concession lines to get a nice cold brew