Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[VUGrad1314]

Apparently football is the holdup of Murray State's inclusion to the MVC. The Olympic side of it is basically a done deal according to this article.  I hope that's true and the football issue gets resolved soon.

https://www.inforum.com/bison-media-zone/mens-sports/football/7237320-LIVE-BLOG-Join-the-Sunday-Night-Bison-Live-Chat-with-the-InForum-sports-team-starting-at-9-p.m.

Also keep an eye on Wichita State. I am certain they will be looking around after this news because these basketball additions are not good.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-932357.html

I doubt the Big East or Atlantic 10 will be fits for the Shockers. I think the Mountain West now that they have been cut off from Texas (assuming these schools are going to be accepted into the AAC) are going to go in a basketball centric direction. That could mean just adding Gonzaga or adding 3 (Gonzaga Wichita State St Mary's). if the MWC decides not to expand then their only option is to stay in this declining AAC or come back to the Valley. Murray State Wichita State and whatever private add balances this out will be a heck of a 14 team league! I am beginning to dream big: SLU Dayton or Tulsa MIGHT be possible though since most of those football programs are decent Tulsa is probably happy in the AAC unlike Wichita State. We might have to settle for an ORU or taking a gamble on a Detroit or St Thomas or treating a non football public (Milwaukee or NKU for instance) like a private school if we went to 14.

[wh]

Also keep an eye on Wichita State. I am certain they will be looking around after this news because these basketball additions are not good.

https://csnbbs.com/thread-932357.html

If those schools join the AAC, Wichita State's exodus from the MVC officially becomes a demotion. This is what can happen when a university moves to a football-centric conference to elevate their basketball program. I don't know how they could have anticipated this at the time, but theyre not in a good place right now.

Interestingly, their fans think the AAC will still be better than the MVC, and that it won't even be close. The reality is once the MVC adds Belmont and Murray State the opposite will be true. Like Butler from days past, this demonstrates that there is no correlation between a winning basketball program and a knowledgeable fan base.

BTW, I would suggest that the MVC not chase after WSU. The league is strong without them. Force them to make the first move, and if they're interested, tell them they'll have to pay their own exit fees to leave the AAC and pay sticker price to re-join the Valley. They left the Valley for greener pastures and acted arrogantly on their way out the door. Force them to show some humility if they want to come back.

[bbtds]

(for the reasons stated by bbts and wh)

as bbts and others point out,

Who's that guy?

Oops! Sorry for not properly citing you bbtds.

that's okay, vu84v3, ooops, vu94v2, vu69v4, vu84v2, 

[oklahomamick]

As much as I dislike ORU and think the academics are dreadful, you should take a look at the facilities.  https://oruathletics.com/facilities/oneok-sports-complex/6

They have really improved over the years.  I went to high school with the current Athletic Director.  He's pretty impressive and pretty young to be an AD.  The complete opposite of the former AD, Mike Carter.   

It appears to be a lot of corporate donations.  Nowadays, I would think it would be difficult to get corporate donations as a highly religious school.

They had a good run last year in the NCAAT, but outside of that......no success in a long time.  I vote no, for ORU.   

[VUGrad1314]

As much as I dislike ORU and think the academics are dreadful, you should take a look at the facilities.  https://oruathletics.com/facilities/oneok-sports-complex/6 They have really improved over the years.  I went to high school with the current Athletic Director.  He's pretty impressive and pretty young to be an AD.  The complete opposite of the former AD, Mike Carter. It appears to be a lot of corporate donations.  Nowadays, I would think it would be difficult to get corporate donations as a highly religious school. They had a good run last year in the NCAAT, but outside of that......no success in a long time.  I vote no, for ORU.

They're a wait and see candidate unless we need a 14th immediately and that 14th has to be a private school and schools like Dayton SLU and Tulsa aren't interested. And even then I wouldn't necessarily fault the league for looking at a school like St Thomas first instead though their status as a newly-transitioned D1 member makes me a bit nervous about adding them. I will need more than this one run to really fully be on board with ORU but they flashed some promise this past year (if they can win the Summit this year and make the tournament and win again they become a lot more interesting and their facilities and budget look good. I do worry about academics and culture with them much more than I do with Murray State and that will certainly take longer to fix. If Murray State is having some trouble getting in because of their academic profile then the presidents of the MVC will definitely hate the prospect of sharing a conference with ORU. Frankly I don't see an issue with a non football playing public acting as a  pseudo-private school in any expansion past 12. You'd have some decent candidates there in NKU and to a lesser extent Little Rock Wright State Milwaukee and UIC if they wanted to double up in Chicago).

[oklahomamick]

Realignment only becomes more interesting as AAC is picking up all the Texas Schools from CUSA.  CUSA will then need to add some schools.  Would Missouri State like to make that jump to CUSA?  Or the SunBelt who may need to add some teams due CUSA raiding them? Should be a fun ride. 

Would be awesome, but probably as far fetch as picking up SLU or Dayton, but Rice would be a good pickup for MVC. 

[VUGrad1314]

Realignment only becomes more interesting as AAC is picking up all the Texas Schools from CUSA.  CUSA will then need to add some schools.  Would Missouri State like to make that jump to CUSA?  Or the SunBelt who may need to add some teams due CUSA raiding them? Should be a fun ride. Would be awesome, but probably as far fetch as picking up SLU or Dayton, but Rice would be a good pickup for MVC.

AAC basketball is going to SUCK going forward especially after Memphis and (possibly) SMU leave. Wichita State would be wise to get out. I really don't love the path the AAC has chosen for the future of the conference. This approach didn't work for CUSA why would it work for the AAC with the exact same schools? It just seems dumb to me. Missouri State would be foolish to jump to CUSA right now even though it's possible the league could end up better off having shed a lot of dead weight. No to Rice as an MVC candidate. Great market Great academics but far away and they absolutely suck in every sport except baseball.

[oklahomamick]

Baseball is a big deal in the MVC.  I would take Rice if they were on the table. 


Memphis and SMU aren't going anywhere. 

[VUGrad1314]

Baseball is a big deal in the MVC.  I would take Rice if they were on the table. Memphis and SMU aren't going anywhere.

I believe Memphis especially has a shot at the Big XII if they do open up a second round of expansion as has been rumored. SMU also has a shot but I have my doubts as to whether or not they will get in.

[VUGrad1314]

Some (seemingly) VERY positive smoke for those of us who are pro Murray to the MVC. This seems like a move made with an invite forthcoming. I think Father Harry is being coy while the final details are being sorted out. The fact that this is the exact same thing Belmont did just before joining doesn't seem like a coincidence.

https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1450563705360502788

https://twitter.com/FatherHarry1/status/1450563896234979337

[wh]

'1314 - I'm not aware of anyone who is anti-Murray State. The difference between you and me is I'm open to other options, as the search committee may see fit. You're not. Correct?

[VUGrad1314]

'1314 - I'm not aware of anyone who is anti-Murray State. The difference between you and me is I'm open to other options, as the search committee may see fit. You're not. Correct?

That wasn't meant to be a shot at you or anyone in particular. Just good news for the pro expansion side in general. I wouldn't say I'm not open to other alternatives I just think that almost anybody we could add outside of an extremely short list is far behind Murray State in terms of potential positive impact for the conference. For instance if the MVC added South Dakota State or NKU or even Little Rock (although I've cooled on them a bit) I wouldn't hate the move I just would have felt like Murray State was and is a much better use of that twelfth spot. I'd be pretty upset if the add was something like UT-Arlington or UIC or Milwaukee (unless I heard a lot about Milwaukee or UIC spending a bunch of money to compete in the MVC as a condition of the invite.) Like yeah if a Wichita State came available I would obviously see them as more valuable than Murray State but in that case I would advocate an expansion to 14 because I think Murray State is that potentially valuable\impactful for the conference.


I think we both want the same thing for the conference (to be as strong and viable in the changing landscape as possible) but maybe have different visions of what that looks like. For instance, I would welcome the Shockers back with open arms if they came back. Their potential impact on the conference is so great that we'd be stupid not to let bygones be bygones and let them back in. I don't even think I would put the same conditions on their return as you would. I guess I'm looking at this from a purely pragmatic and athletic lens which you might expect me to do as a fan. Like many of us I view athletics as the front porch to the university and that athletics can and does serve the larger goals and mission of the university in that success breeds exposure and enrollment. I do realize there are other considerations on the presidential side of things I just don't think they are as valuable in our mid major world as they might be if we were a power league whose status wouldn't be threatened by one or two expansion missteps (like the Big 10 for instance).


If the MVC screws up an expansion addition they risk alienating their flagship members and losing them to other conferences or tanking their chance at at large bids and the additional tournament credits that they bring which are so vital to our programs. If the Big 10 screws up (cough adding Rutgers Cough) nobody is any worse off. They get the cable revenue from being in the market Rutgers inhabits in ways that leagues like the MVC never would even if the major market team is good, they still make bank off the tournament every year, none of their teams is severely threatened with losing an at large bid, they're still in the CFP frequently, and nobody is going to leave because the partnership on both the athletic and academic side of things is so deep and important to the member institutions. There's really nowhere better for them to go even if they aren't thrilled by what Rutgers and Maryland have brought outside of the extra money from cable subscriptions that is. By contrast, the MVC must thrive on performance and taking the fight to these power conference teams by assembling the greatest collection of programs possible with market and institutional considerations being by necessity distantly secondary concerns.


In the case of a potential Wichita State return, there would certainly be hurt feelings that need to be smoothed over and maybe a little bit of humility needed on the part of the Shockers and their fans but I would welcome them back because they can help this conference get where we all want it to go. Just as I believe that moreso than any other potential addition (and right now I don't fully consider Wichita State as a reasonable potential target because there's still too much to be sorted out there) Murray State can help this conference achieve its goals. They are the distant #1 option in my mind. Then a few meh schools who might help. And then there are other schools that probably hurt us in our goals and I would not be happy to see them added.

[wh]

I poached these Commissioner Jackson's expansion comments from the article posted by Just Sayin on another thread. Nothing he said would lead me to believe that adding Murray State (or anyone else) is imminent.

Jackson on expansion — Conference realignment continues to shake the world of college athletics. The MVC got into the mix when it added Belmont in late September. However, early October scuttlebutt that Murray State would join the MVC as the 12th league member has not come to pass. Jackson feels no pressure to add a school just for the sake of adding one or for any other reason.

"We're not desperate. We're in a position where we have great institutions with great leadership. If somebody comes on the radar that our [expansion] council thinks can enhance us, then we'd have conversations with those schools about membership," Jackson said. "But I don't think we're in a situation where something has to be done or we have to react to what a conference like the American is doing to replenish their coffers."

Jackson also doesn't feel the MVC is in danger of being poached.

"So much of what is really driving this is based around football. I don't know if you want to call it a shield, but we're a basketball-centric and most of our conversations focus on that," Jackson said.

[Just Sayin]

"So much of what is really driving this is based around football. I don't know if you want to call it a shield beacon, but we're a basketball-centric and most of our conversations focus on that," Jackson said.

[VUGrad1314]

I poached these Commissioner Jackson's expansion comments from the article posted by Just Sayin on another thread. Nothing he said would lead me to believe that adding Murray State (or anyone else) is imminent. Jackson on expansion — Conference realignment continues to shake the world of college athletics. The MVC got into the mix when it added Belmont in late September. However, early October scuttlebutt that Murray State would join the MVC as the 12th league member has not come to pass. Jackson feels no pressure to add a school just for the sake of adding one or for any other reason. "We're not desperate. We're in a position where we have great institutions with great leadership. If somebody comes on the radar that our [expansion] council thinks can enhance us, then we'd have conversations with those schools about membership," Jackson said. "But I don't think we're in a situation where something has to be done or we have to react to what a conference like the American is doing to replenish their coffers." Jackson also doesn't feel the MVC is in danger of being poached. "So much of what is really driving this is based around football. I don't know if you want to call it a shield, but we're a basketball-centric and most of our conversations focus on that," Jackson said.

So we're a basketball centric league who is concentrated on basketball-centric additions that feels no pressure to add a school that has had 3 NCAA Tournament wins and 2 top 25 rankings  and 3 NBA Draftees (including two lottery picks) since 2010? Yeah... That doesn't wash... How does that not "Enhance us?" How is adding a school with that profile a "desperation" add? That's not adding for the sake of adding. That's a dream addition to a conference like ours if we really are as basketball centric as we claim to be. He's blowing up all the institutional and market-based concerns that have been brought up before with this statement. So what's the excuse for not pulling the trigger now?


Here's the one bit of hope I take from Jackson's words though (added after a brief moment of reflection) Jackson is not targeting rash reactive decisions which means we're probably not going to jump quickly at a school meaning we are engaged in a thorough vetting process for schools because we are in a position that allows us to be selective about who we add. A school like Murray State checks the boxes if we are prioritizing basketball for additions so hopefully we will hear that they are adding the Murray State because it fits the bill of a strong addition to help the MVC capitalize on its position of relative strength and stability in this period of realignment. We don't have to make rash adds like the AAC are doing, we can afford to pick the best candidates possible to grow the league. If that's the approach then Murray State fits the bill and we should be adding them. I hope that's what he really means.

[wh]

The fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.

[VUGrad1314]

The fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.

Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!

[vuny98]

The fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.

Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!

I could also be that a deal is in the works but with Murray State having a football program, the details are much more complex than they were for someone like Belmont.

"We're not desperate. We're in a position where we have great institutions with great leadership. If somebody comes on the radar that our [expansion] council thinks can enhance us, then we'd have conversations with those schools about membership,"

To me that does not read as we are not adding someone else. That reads as if and when we add someone else, it will be for the right reasons, not because we lost 5 teams to another conference.

[VUGrad1314]

All I know is that if we don't get Murray State it better be because we got Wichita State instead. And even then I would advocate a move to 14 with dealer's choice on the 14th between Oral Roberts NKU South Dakota State or Little Rock. Though honestly if we pulled that off and they wanted to do a market\institutional school like Milwaukee UIC or UTA or a new to D1 add like St Thomas  then I GUESS I would be on board with it.

[wh]

The fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.

Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!

I think you're taking what he said out of context. He was making the point that all the current ado revolves around football, which doesn't apply to the MVC as a basketball-centric conference. Nothing deeper than that. BTW, Dayton fans make the identical argument about being jilted by the Big East. They thought they should have been chosen over Butler because they have a historically strong program and they're Catholic. Now they're claiming they're more a natural fit than ever, giving the BE an even 12 teams. There's no more bb-centric conference anywhere than the BE. What don't they get about Dayton, right?

[VUGrad1314]

The fact that Murray State is sitting there ripe for the picking but the league isn't acting on it tells me that Jackson and the search committee have more considerations in mind than simply past men's basketball program success.

Except that he just said that basketball was the most important and guiding factor... That's what I took from the article and that's why I'm confused and annoyed at this point... This is taking SO LONG Just say we're not doing anything then so I can be mad for a couple weeks and then get ready for the season Or if we're doing something then let's have the announcement already so I can celebrate the great and bright future of Valley hoops that will have only gotten brighter and then get ready for the season with lots to look forward to now and in the future!

I think you're taking what he said out of context. He was making the point that all the current ado revolves around football, which doesn't apply to the MVC as a basketball-centric conference. Nothing deeper than that. BTW, Dayton fans make the identical argument about being jilted by the Big East. They thought they should have been chosen over Butler because they have a historically strong program and they're Catholic. Now they're claiming they're more a natural fit than ever, giving the BE an even 12 teams. There's no more bb-centric conference anywhere than the BE. What don't they get about Dayton, right?

I'm with the Dayton fans on that one. They are a natural hand in glove fit for the BE. Great fan support great facilities great tradition institutional and geographic fit in a growing market (Cincinnati and Dayton is getting steadily bigger and possibly merging into one DMA soon in which case it would make a lot of sense to double up with the two teams being separated by an hour or so trip. Allowing Xavier to block Dayton would be more of a detriment to the league then I think many realize. The right play for the Big East is 14 teams with SLU Dayton and whatever they feel is better choice of Richmond and VCU. Balances east and west. Gives them two new markets and a second strong presence in another top 40 market and adds a LOT of basketball quality with institutional fits. That would be a huge win for the Big East.

[VUGrad1314]

Sounds like things will get worse for the AAC before they get better If I were Wichita State I would start getting my contingency plans in order if I haven't been doing so already.

https://www.dmagazine.com/sports/2021/10/big-12-commissioner-bob-bowlsby-opens-up-about-the-ut-ou-departure-and-more/?ref=feat-sect

Big XII commissioner Bob Bowlsby when asked about SMU brings up Memphis and Boise State completely unprompted. I think Memphis is gonezo just as soon as Texas and Oklahoma finalize their departures to the SEC.

[VUGrad1314]

if Sam Houston State leaves the WAC and McNeese State leaves the Southland maybe that is enough to resolve the Murray State football program issue. Maybe they can land as a temporary affiliate in either conference to grease the skids of their (hopeful) move to the MVC. I think the Southland would still be at six so they wouldn't need to and they have the scheduling agreement with the OVC which would complicate things. The WAC however I believe would drop to five members and may not be able to add another FCS transition member. Maybe Murray State could park their program there for a few years until the MVFC is ready for them (assuming that's the holdup) and give the WAC more time to assess the landscape and find and incorporate more FCS callups.

[IrishDawg]

I'm with the Dayton fans on that one. They are a natural hand in glove fit for the BE. Great fan support great facilities great tradition institutional and geographic fit in a growing market (Cincinnati and Dayton is getting steadily bigger and possibly merging into one DMA soon in which case it would make a lot of sense to double up with the two teams being separated by an hour or so trip. Allowing Xavier to block Dayton would be more of a detriment to the league then I think many realize. The right play for the Big East is 14 teams with SLU Dayton and whatever they feel is better choice of Richmond and VCU. Balances east and west. Gives them two new markets and a second strong presence in another top 40 market and adds a LOT of basketball quality with institutional fits. That would be a huge win for the Big East.

Dayton might be a logical fit just based on the schools in the league (same for SLU), but unless either one of these schools suddenly moves the TV needle or raking in tourney shares, there's not really a need to add anyone outside of potentially Gonzaga (and I guess St. Mary's if Gonzaga wants to try and build a West division of the league), and really outside of basketball, those schools would be a logistical nightmare.  Teams really like the round robin aspect, so if the Big East is going to add anyone, it's going to REALLY need to be a home run.  Dayton and SLU are singles, IMO.  If it was solely about the Universities and their fit within the league, I'd be in complete agreement.  The Big East added UConn because while the University is a terrible fit in the league, they really help the league keep MSG for the BE Tourney, and they are a program with natural rivalries with the East Coast Catholic schools and have proven they can get it done on the biggest stage.

[VUGrad1314]

The biggest takeaway here vis a vis MVC Expansion is that Liberty is no longer interested in CUSA. This is bad news because it makes the likelihood that CUSA will ultimately survive with FCS callups less likely meaning Murray State probably has fewer options to park its football program (assuming that's the holdup).

https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1451668085572788231?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1451668085572788231%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-932952.html