Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[justducky]

We all know what Loyola has - a 4 year track record of success under 1 former coach and 1 former freak of nature player. COVID saved them from what would have been a steep decline this year. Where they go after this is a crap shoot.

You may have overstated your point but your conclusion may well be accurate. When Butler left for the A-10 I was confident they could compete near the top of that group. Loyola?  Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[vu84v2]

i agree, especially in regards to Murray State. They are much like Butler in that they seem to handle succession from successful coaches very well. Belmont has only had one transition, but obviously it has gone very well too.

[Just Sayin]

Big game tomorrow:

SAT 4:00pm
Murray St.   o149.5
Belmont   -5.5

[wh]

We all know what Loyola has - a 4 year track record of success under 1 former coach and 1 former freak of nature player. COVID saved them from what would have been a steep decline this year. Where they go after this is a crap shoot.

You may have overstated your point but your conclusion may well be accurate. When Butler left for the A-10 I was confident they could compete near the top of that group. Loyola?  Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If my conclusion turns out to be accurate, then I didn't overstate my point. 

[VUGrad1314]

UIC to MVC appears done. Matt Brown and Jon Rothstein confirm.

https://twitter.com/mattbrownep/status/1484908389020876801?s=21

https://collegehoopstoday.com/index.php/rothstein-files/missouri-valley-conference-expected-to-add-uic-announcement-could-come-as-early-this-week/

https://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/1484908359958605832?cxt=HHwWkMC59aaSupspAAAA

[usc4valpo]

Interesting High risk big gain choice. be aware they are stepchildren of DePaul and Loyola in a city apathetic toward college basketball.

Now the UIC Valpo rivalry renews.

[VUGrad1314]

Interesting High risk big gain choice. be aware they are stepchildren of DePaul and Loyola in a city apathetic toward college basketball. Now the UIC Valpo rivalry renews.

IF they invest and commit to athletics to the degree they appear to be capable of based on their endowment numbers and the fact that they just dumped $4.5million into soccer field renovations they could pay off handsomely for the league. I've come around completely on UIC and support their inclusion.

[usc4valpo]

It's a risk, I like taking a risk unlike Valpo, I like the potential outcome, let's see what happens.

[VUGrad1314]

It's a risk, I like taking a risk unlike Valpo, I like the potential outcome, let's see what happens.

As I said every add is a risk. After making two additions that feel safer than this one it feels like the league is in more of a position to take a risk like this. If it pays off the MVC will become a really strong league. I disagree with your point about Valpo though. Valpo absolutely did take a risk stepping up to the Valley. It hasn't paid off for them in competition yet but it certainly has financially with all the money the move has generated. Hopefully once we find either the right mix of players or the right leadership good things can start happening soon on the court. We're all very hungry to see that and we all know deep down that this program is capable of delivering on their promise one day. At least that's what I keep trying to tell myself. The UNI win has me feeling hopeful for the first time this season. Hopefully they won't let us all down in this game today.

[valpotx]

UIC isn't being added because the MVC feels that they can become the next Creighton, Wichita State, or Loyola.  It is just due to being in Chicago, and it makes sense for the league.  We keep a Chicago travel partner, and they have good programs outside of Basketball, with some prior success many years ago.  You make this addition to stay in Chicago, which is vital to most MVC school alumni, while it would not have been worthwhile to 'add' Kansas City with UMKC.  Stay at 12, and though a little uneasy with the 7-5 public/private split, maybe we get to 14 in a few years with a school like Detroit, Denver, Bellarmine, Oral Roberts, St. Thomas, etc.  There are only so many options in private schools around our footprint...

[vu84v2]

What are thoughts on scheduling with 12 teams? Round robin with a 22 game conference schedule? Two divisions with a round robin in the division and then play other teams once (i.e. 16 games)? Something more creative?

My guess is that, given the difficulty scheduling non-conference games, the best option is the 22 game conference schedule...with no non-D1 games (at least for Valpo).

[vu84v2]

Interesting High risk big gain choice. be aware they are stepchildren of DePaul and Loyola in a city apathetic toward college basketball. Now the UIC Valpo rivalry renews.

IF they invest and commit to athletics to the degree they appear to be capable of based on their endowment numbers and the fact that they just dumped $4.5million into soccer field renovations they could pay off handsomely for the league. I've come around completely on UIC and support their inclusion.

While I am fine with adding UIC, I readily admit my uneasiness in a state university putting $4.5M into renovating a soccer field when the state has massive budget issues. Less than 40 percent of Illinois' pension obligations are funded and, since all teachers have a larger state pension instead of social security, the obligations are astronomical.

[usc4valpo]

1314 - disagree about Valpo taking risks. In general, they have been way too conservative and reactive in all areas of decision making. Regarding the jump to the MVC for all sports, their financial commitment for whatever reason is not on par. I think Valpo thought they could get away with a discount lunch.

Regarding UIC, it can be big reward but it is an uphill climb. Generally, Chicago and the UIC alums don't care about their athletics. I think the $4.5m soccer upgrade is impressive, but note that UIC has a diverse student body and it makes sense to have this investment. UIC D1 basketball has been around for 40 years and never caught on. I still like the risk.

The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.

[wh]

What are thoughts on scheduling with 12 teams? Round robin with a 22 game conference schedule? Two divisions with a round robin in the division and then play other teams once (i.e. 16 games)? Something more creative?

My guess is that, given the difficulty scheduling non-conference games, the best option is the 22 game conference schedule...with no non-D1 games (at least for Valpo).

Unquestionably, adding 4 conference games should make OOC scheduling an infinitely easier task with better results, yet I'll believe it when I see it.

[vu84v2]

The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.

Since UIC is part of the Illinois university system, the bigger concerns are the state's financial issues (not the city's). However, the state has been woefully in debt for many years.

[elephtheria47]

Ah finally. A team we should be able to go 2-0 against. Always enjoyed getting to UIC and hitting up greektown or little Italy. Hope it helps us somewhat remain viable in Chicagoland and recruits can still "go away from home" while still being close and getting back for a game.

[VUGrad1314]

The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.

Since UIC is part of the Illinois university system, the bigger concerns are the state's financial issues (not the city's). However, the state has been woefully in debt for many years.

And yet their enrollment and endowment have been growing by leaps and bounds for years... I think they're fine...

Ah finally. A team we should be able to go 2-0 against. Always enjoyed getting to UIC and hitting up greektown or little Italy. Hope it helps us somewhat remain viable in Chicagoland and recruits can still "go away from home" while still being close and getting back for a game.

Except they literally just swept a home and home against us so that's no guarantee either.

[vu72]

Ah finally. A team we should be able to go 2-0 against.

Really?  On November 13 we lost to them in overtime AT our place.  Last year we lost by 15 at their place.  We've got a ways to go before we can predict we can absolutely beat anyone.

[usc4valpo]

Ok, UIC has cash but no fan base. Very few in Chicago care about UIC basketball. cripe, they don't really care about DePaul either, and support for Loyola for the results they have had should be much better.


Chicago is a terrible college sports town.

[VALPO LI]

What are thoughts on scheduling with 12 teams? Round robin with a 22 game conference schedule? Two divisions with a round robin in the division and then play other teams once (i.e. 16 games)? Something more creative?

My guess is that, given the difficulty scheduling non-conference games, the best option is the 22 game conference schedule...with no non-D1 games (at least for Valpo).

Unquestionably, adding 4 conference games should make OOC scheduling an infinitely easier task with better results, yet I'll believe it when I see it.

One would hope the Non Conference schedule would be better with 9 games.  It could look like this:
3 MTE games
1 paid game at a power 6
2 home buy games @ the ARC
1 start a Rivalry game (we need one bad!)
1 Home and Home
1 Home non D-1
As much as it pains me to say it, I don't think the non D-1 game goes away. If played right that would get Valpo 4-5 home non conference games a season.

[VUGrad1314]

1314 - disagree about Valpo taking risks. In general, they have been way too conservative and reactive in all areas of decision making. Regarding the jump to the MVC for all sports, their financial commitment for whatever reason is not on par. I think Valpo thought they could get away with a discount lunch. Regarding UIC, it can be big reward but it is an uphill climb. Generally, Chicago and the UIC alums don't care about their athletics. I think the $4.5m soccer upgrade is impressive, but note that UIC has a diverse student body and it makes sense to have this investment. UIC D1 basketball has been around for 40 years and never caught on. I still like the risk. The other issue that is risky is the current state of Chicago as they are in massive debt, becoming a third world city (many rich, many poor, no middle class), and an incompetent government requiring an enema.

There is never any such thing as a perfect expansion candidate. If you dig deeply enough you will find warts with every single one of them which is why they aren't founding members of the conferences they later join. Of the three Belmont probably comes close to the perfect mix of market institutional profile and athletics performance being perfect for the MVC but even then there were people who didn't like the travel (even though it's not a huge expansion of the footprint especially with Murray State also in the conference) or felt like they hadn't proven their record of success long enough or through enough coaching transitions. With Murray State it was always about the market and with UIC it's performance based but all three check significant boxes in the areas they are strong in which is why they were added.


I say all that to ask this: what exactly did you want out of expansion? When Murray State was being considered you were against adding "truck stop schools" as you called them despite the obvious record of performance now when UIC is added which is decidedly NOT a "truck stop school" you are worried about fan support and whether Chicago cares about college sports. I just don't get it. The league accomplished literally every goal it set out to with this expansion except finding Missouri State a suitable travel partner to make them less of an outlier. In this expansion the MVC:


1. Added not one but two high performing schools that should compete very well early on in the league helping to secure the post-Loyola future (Belmont and Murray State)


2. Held on to a critical market for MVC institutions vacated by Loyola's departure (UIC)


3. Added two schools growing rapidly in enrollment and endowment (Belmont and UIC)


4. Added a strong enough presence in the south with Belmont and Murray State that the MVC might be able to greatly expand its media reach if the negotiations with the RSN's prove fruitful


5. Significantly helped out Arch Madness (which generates money for the schools in the conference) by inviting a rabid fanbase that travels well (Murray State).


6. Added schools that will contribute significantly as overall athletic departments and will make non revenue sports even more competitive enhancing conference stability. (all 3 additions) Someone mentioned that perhaps the MVC can bring men's tennis back under its umbrella which might allow Valpo to restart the program (and maybe restart Men's soccer at some point as well).


Ignoring the Missouri State issue (which might well be overblown considering Missouri State's AD was head of the expansion committee and they just recently turned down overtures from Conference USA signaling that they must be pretty happy with the overall direction of the Valley) I'd have to say this is some A+ work by the MVC in handling this era of transition and the conference will be even better for it.


What would you have done differently? And please don't say SFA and UTA because UIC is better than UTA at almost everything institutionally and comparable or better athletically in all sports except Men's basketball with most of UTA's success in basketball coming under Scott Cross who is no longer there anyway. Moreover UIC doesn't blow up the travel budgets like UTA would and Murray State is a superior addition to SFA in virtually every respect. Belmont as I recall you were supportive of.

[usc4valpo]

1314 - everything is cool. Just having fun - my wife went to SFA, and my concerns are people being overly Midwest biased. I am also a proud alum of a conference of champions school for which historically by this board rarely gets respect. But it is about sports, the toy department of life as Howard Cosell once said.

The MVC did a decent job selecting, and the risk adding UIC can pay big.

As for Valpo, for which I care more about than the status of the MVC - they need to step up - I am very concerned  Matt may not be the right fit for the job and I think Valpo must address this and find a solution. Matt is a piece of the puzzle - We have big problems right now - mediocre play, fan apathy, bad facilities, lack of cash, etc.

[vu72]

As for Valpo, for which I care more about than the status of the MVC - they need to step up - I am very concerned  Matt may not be the right fit for the job and I think Valpo must address this and find a solution. Matt is a piece of the puzzle - We have big problems right now - mediocre play, fan apathy, bad facilities, lack of cash, etc.

Agree here.  One thing yhat is bugging me is the "coach speak" generated by both Matt and Mary.  You know, the "we want to play our best in March"comments. This is the stuff of Captain Obvious.  It is seemingly generated by trying to overlook a really bad start to the season--as if those games mean nothing.  True, they mean nothing toward getting the automatic bid, but they mean a lot when taking into account how the negative results affect the conference rankings and the chance at multiple bids nor the more obvious one that even if you get the automatic bid, with a near 500 record, you' end up as a 14 or 15 seed with next to zero chance of a win, let alone multiple wins.

[VUGrad1314]

1314 - everything is cool. Just having fun - my wife went to SFA, and my concerns are people being overly Midwest biased. I am also a proud alum of a conference of champions school for which historically by this board rarely gets respect. But it is about sports, the toy department of life as Howard Cosell once said. The MVC did a decent job selecting, and the risk adding UIC can pay big. As for Valpo, for which I care more about than the status of the MVC - they need to step up - I am very concerned  Matt may not be the right fit for the job and I think Valpo must address this and find a solution. Matt is a piece of the puzzle - We have big problems right now - mediocre play, fan apathy, bad facilities, lack of cash, etc.

I get that. I don't have a problem with looking outside the midwest for quality for the league but it has to be for the right add(s). I think I have said before but if not I will state it here: I would be all for SFA as an MVC candidate if that were realistic but seeing as how they just moved and given some of the potential FBS rumors (not sure how serious those are beyond message board chatter) I don't see that as an option.


If we're taking a risk I'd prefer that risk not overly inflate travel budgets which would hurt the overall competitiveness of other teams in the league by drawing resources away from other things. Like it or not at our level resources are always limited and we have to be smart on what we emphasize. I firmly believe that our geographic compactness and the fact that we have historically not relied on markets as a basis for expansion decisions but on performance and whether that performance has a solid underpinning (although this is definitely changing in our current age are huge strengths of this league and allow us to punch well above our weight class which I have always admired and loved.


I agree Valpo needs to step up and I am very concerned about Valpo's performance as well and the fact that we quite frankly haven't delivered since our invite. One of the reasons I was so pro-expansion was because I had hoped that if Valpo wasn't willing to make more commitments to investment and facilities getting embarrassed by some Johnny Come Latelys who handle the transition quicker and better than us will shock Valpo out of its complacency and get them to make the investments that are long overdue for the program. Coaching will help with that but I think there's no doubt that Valpo is hamstrung by the facilities issue and of course the facilities of our peers and the current and forthcoming investments at Belmont UIC and Murray State especially Murray State's proposal which is really impressive won't help that.


If however it's just a question of not having the resources then I apologize for harping on this so much but I think Valpo likely does have the resources to at least make the process of improvements go a little faster than this. I know we're on the same side of this issue. We all are. We want good things for Valpo but if Valpo can't or won't deliver then finding other schools that can to make the conference stronger and bring in more bids and tournament revenue is a good thing. It just comes down to the extent to which you believe Valpo is responsible for their own underperformance and I believe that while some things are beyond Valpo's control as a small private school with a small largely academics focused alumni base  there are multiple areas where the problems are eminently fixable with just a little more work and effort.

[vu72]

It just comes down to the extent to which you believe Valpo is responsible for their own underperformance and I believe that while some things are beyond Valpo's control as a small private school with a small largely academics focused alumni base  there are multiple areas where the problems are eminently fixable with just a little more work and effort.

While we all want Valpo to be more competitive, some perspective is needed here.  We don't just play basketball. We play softball, baseball and other sports that are very popular in the Valley.
In the most recent addition of AD insights, Mark LaBarbera said that Valpo will now be able to broadcast both softball and baseball games on ESPN+. That is huge for national exposure and recruiting.  It didn't happen because it was a cheap add.  I'm no expert in what adding broadcasting capabilities to our venues might have cost, but it was a lot, maybe a combined $1 million dollar price tag--who knows.  So we are still bringing our overall facilities up to Valley standards.  We all want the ARC to be brought up to Valley standards.  President Padilla has said so as well but that is going to cost a lot more than $1 million.

In comparison, consider the one school who had done worse than us since joining the Valley. In both Men's and Women's basketball, Evansville is clearly at the bottom.  They joined the conference in 1994!  We joined in 2015.  They had a 21 year lead on us!  Or how about Indiana State, who we just beat and who is hanging out near the bottom of the Men's race.  They joined in 1976!!!!!  So, keep the fact that we are the second smallest school in the conference with zero state funding and then look at our progress, albeit slow, but still progress, nonetheless.