Possible Missouri Valley Conference Expansion

[VUSWIM08-12]

Loyola's run is all the more reason to stand pat unless any addition makes us a dead-lock multi-bid league. That said, I'd be taking a coffee with SLU if I was the Valley brass right now with the following pitch: "hey, you can join a conference on the rise that's been to the Final Four twice in the past six years, with lots of built-in regional rivalries, and cut your travel costs across all sports by two-thirds... or you can stay in a 14-team league that hasn't been to the Final Four in 22 years, where you're only marginally more likely to get in the Dance, and where your nearest conference rival is 360 miles away."

VCU made the final 4 in 2011 right??

[VUGrad1314]

Yes, as did current A10 member George Mason back in 2006. The difference is that George Mason and VCU achieved their Final 4 berths as members of the CAA--not the A10.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Both of those schools made the Final Four as members of the Colonial Athletic Association. The A-10 gets no credit for either of those runs.

[bigmosmithfan1]

First of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.

I agree that we should move aggressively while the iron is hot -- that's why you would approach SLU or Dayton now. There's no reason to add schools that won't necessarily move the needle (and I'm sorry, adding two OVC schools does *NOT* carry the value with the committee that some people seem to think, which is why if the MVC is smart, they'll wait to see if the committee shifts their stance on midmajor at-large bids before making any additions like that).

Put simply, if the Valley is going to be consigned to one-bid status most years due to Selection Committee corruption, I'd much rather do it in a 10-team league than in a 12-team one.

[FieldGoodie05]

First of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.

I agree that we should move aggressively while the iron is hot -- that's why you would approach SLU or Dayton now. There's no reason to add schools that won't necessarily move the needle (and I'm sorry, adding two OVC schools does *NOT* carry the value with the committee that some people seem to think, which is why if the MVC is smart, they'll wait to see if the committee shifts their stance on midmajor at-large bids before making any additions like that).

Put simply, if the Valley is going to be consigned to one-bid status most years due to Selection Committee corruption, I'd much rather do it in a 10-team league than in a 12-team one.

Agreed, 10 team seems logical.  Why dilute the MVC to chase (1) additional bid every 5-years?

I don't trust the P5 to concede any ground with letting the NCAA award more at-large births to non P5.  It's just not going to happen, why sit under the NCAA's table expecting scraps that aren't coming.  Don't dilute our conference further.

Money talks and mid majors don't produce like the large alumni bases of P5 schools.  I vote for 10-team league unless a grand slam falls into our laps.  Not even sure SLU is that any longer.  Who is a grand slam in our league footprint?

[VUGrad1314]

Then we'll just have to rise up and take those extra bids by leaving the committee with absolutely no choice.

[VUGrad1314]

I don't know if there are any if SLU doesn't qualify. I also don't believe we're chasing one bid every half-decade. Illinois State barely missed in 2017 This year's Murray State team may have gotten in themselves and would certainly have put Loyola into at large position. The Valley would have had three bids in 2015 if Illinois State had won.  It can be a consistent 2-3 bid league we just need to keep getting better and scheduling better. I don't think we need grand slams just teams that can turn in 50-75 RPI or better  consistently. Murray State and Belmont can do that.

[covufan]

I don't think we need grand slams just teams that can turn in 50-75 RPI or better  consistently.

We need better than 40 for at-large berths.  Even then, after the loss that knocks them out of Arch Madness, they might need top 35 to get at-large. 

[VU2014]

I don't think we need grand slams just teams that can turn in 50-75 RPI or better  consistently.

We need better than 40 for at-large berths.  Even then, after the loss that knocks them out of Arch Madness, they might need top 35 to get at-large. 

Illinois State didn't even get in last season and they were 28 or 29. The Committee is pathetic and corrupt. They have a sliding scale of criteria based on who they want to make the tournament. They've made it clear they prefer the Power Conference schools. They continually screw mid-majors.

Loyola's run is all the more reason to stand pat unless any addition makes us a dead-lock multi-bid league.

That said, I'd be taking a coffee with SLU if I was the Valley brass right now with the following pitch: "hey, you can join a conference on the rise that's been to the Final Four twice in the past six years, with lots of built-in regional rivalries, and cut your travel costs across all sports by two-thirds... or you can stay in a 14-team league that hasn't been to the Final Four in 22 years, where you're only marginally more likely to get in the Dance, and where your nearest conference rival is 360 miles away."

I doubt SLU or Dayton will seriously consider the MVC. The A10 is a proven multi-bid conference and both want into the Big East. Maybe if Dayton moved up to the BE, maybe SLU would consider the MVC.

[bbtds]

First of all I think adding teams like Murray State and Belmont absolutely makes the MVC a surefire multibid league; and secondly, I cite the HL's inability to cash in on Butler's runs as evidence of the need to strike while the iron is hot. I remember reading that there were rumors of Murray State and Belmont going to the HL on the heels of Butler's runs but they were scared off by seeing multiple schools clamoring to join the MVC. We all know what happened to the HL after that. The MVC needs to pull in these high-caliber programs whenever and however they can.

I agree that we should move aggressively while the iron is hot -- that's why you would approach SLU or Dayton now. There's no reason to add schools that won't necessarily move the needle (and I'm sorry, adding two OVC schools does *NOT* carry the value with the committee that some people seem to think, which is why if the MVC is smart, they'll wait to see if the committee shifts their stance on midmajor at-large bids before making any additions like that).

Put simply, if the Valley is going to be consigned to one-bid status most years due to Selection Committee corruption, I'd much rather do it in a 10-team league than in a 12-team one.

So........what does the SLU message board propose........................

what if...



The A-10 invited everybody`s current sweetheart Loyola(IL) to join?  Would they accept?



So IF this happened, would fit alot of the A-10 mold, Metropolitan School, private. 

I think 15 works, make 3 divisions, play divison twice, everybody else once , making an 18 conference schedule.

Using Geography...

West-  SLU,Loyola,Dayton, Duquense, and St. Bonaventure

North-LaSalle,St.Joseph`s,Fordham,Rhode Island and UMass

South-VCU,Richmond,GW, George Mason and Davidson



The addition of Loyola would help SLU and Dayton with a midwest addition, and Chicago footprint

Thoughts?

[VU2014]

That would be a awful scenario for the MVC.

[VUGrad1314]

It's also extremely unlikely to happen. First of all, the A10 has been adamantly against adding teams on the western side of its footprint. Secondly it's still  a travel nightmare  for non-revenue sports. Odd numbered divisions leave open the possibility that some poor team would play in the West division and then play another team much  further away in the same week. Think SLU or Loyola and Davidson in the same week. Yuck. Third, Loyola's budget would have to be massively increased and I don't just mean for travel. They'd go from having a competitive budget in the MVC to the smallest or second smallest in the A10. Fourth, travel isn't balanced AT ALL. St Bonaventure has to schlep its teams to the Midwest every year the south division has easy travel within the division. Fifth, Although the A10 got 3 bids the Valley finished well ahead of it in all relevant metrics and has a history of doing so. The conference is still on its way up.  Furthermore, Loyola generated the same number of tournament credits as the A10 BY ITSELF. Sixth, one of the A10's premier programs--Rhode Island--has just lost its coach. Seventh, I don't think Loyola would do that to the MVC at this stage. Too much mutual goodwill. It's just a SLU fan trying desperately to cling to the notion that they belong in that conference and to their unearned hubris and superiority complex toward the MVC.

[bigmosmithfan1]

SLU moving to the Valley is significantly more likely than that scenario, is all I'll say.

[VULB#62]

While we are throwing out wild and random possibilities, no one has mentioned Loyola to the Big East.   

Catholic, urban, non-football, MBB to the final 4.  And opens up the Chicago metro market (yeah, I know, there's this BE school already there, but for practical purposes the BE Chicago market does not realy exist yet).

[VU2014]

DePaul would fight tooth and nail to keep Loyola out of the BE. Same goes for Xavier wanting to keep Dayton out of the BE. Just the same way Butler would  try and keep Valpo from ever joining the BE, if we ever reached the level of success to warrant consideration (being a Lutheran University already sort of eliminates us from any prayer of joining a Catholic Conference). The Big East already is in the Chicago market even though DePaul is terrible and nobody outside their alums care about them. All that matters is that it get's them into the Chicagoland TV market. The only thing going for SLU's hopes for joining the BE is being a Catholic institution and being in a new tv market and they wouldn't be stepping on anyone else's toes if they joined the conference.

[bigmosmithfan1]

The Big East is not struggling right now, they don't need to add anyone, and if they decide to add, it will be someone in a position of strength. (And yes, DePaul would veto Loyola joining under the hypothetical scenario described).

[VUGrad1314]

If they won't add Gonzaga they're not going to add anybody. Give it up, Billikens, it's not happening.

[VU2014]

The Big East is not struggling right now, they don't need to add anyone, and if they decide to add, it will be someone in a position of strength. (And yes, DePaul would veto Loyola joining under the hypothetical scenario described).

They said they are looking to add an 11th team to combat what the other Power Conference teams are doing by moving to 20 game conference schedules. It's literally being done for strategic reasons to limit the potential of lower conferences getting multiple bids. It's scheduling trickery. There will be even fewer opportunity to play power conference teams in the near future.

[VUGrad1314]

So... let's at least add Murray State to help combat this? No? Sigh...

[VU2014]

So... let's at least add Murray State to help combat this? No? Sigh...

The thing is Murray State probably doesn't automatically turn us into a multi-bid league. They are a nice program but it's not like they're a Gonzaga that adds a consistent Top 25 team that will greatly raise the schedule quality. The MVC operates with travel partners for Women's volleyball and basketball. That extra cost will weigh on presidents and ADs. Not to mention splitting the pie 11 ways instead of 10 is going to add more of a burden on budgets, but it's no slam dunk that adding Murray will make us a 2-bid league and increase unit shares that way.

[VUGrad1314]

I get all that  but I really don't like the idea of the league sitting on its hands not taking advantage of this great year to get better. Other conferences are beginning to squeeze us harder we need to fight back somehow.

[bbtds]

The Big East is not struggling right now, they don't need to add anyone, and if they decide to add, it will be someone in a position of strength. (And yes, DePaul would veto Loyola joining under the hypothetical scenario described).

Hmmmm, same way Detroit kept Oakland out of the Horizon League.......................wait................Oakland is in the Horizon League............how'd that happen?

[IrishDawg]

If they won't add Gonzaga they're not going to add anybody. Give it up, Billikens, it's not happening.

They didn't add Gonzaga because the travel, especially for non-revenue sports for everyone would be a nightmare, and going from Providence to Omaha is already a long enough flight.  If Saint Louis ever did figure it out, or if Loyola suddenly becomes a major factor in Chicago (tough to imagine, given that they had a F4 team and had home games in front of barely over 1,000 people and sold out 1 home game in a 4500 seat arena all year), or if Valpo starts making major runs consistently, they would definitely draw consideration from the Big East.  Butler's not a religious school at all and they got in, so the Lutheran thing wouldn't matter nearly as much as the University profile, which Valpo and Loyola fit.

The only other thing that might keep the Ramblers or Valpo from getting in, outside of a redundancy in the Chicago TV market is the arena size, but that certainly wouldn't trump winning, as Villanova plays the majority of its home games in a 6,000 seat arena (which is packed every night), and no one complains about that.

I'd be more worried about DePaul vetoing Valpo if that situation were ever to arise.  Same TV Market, campuses are half as far away from one another as Butler and Valpo (Butler and Xavier are closer to one another than Butler and Valpo).  Xavier and Dayton are basically the same distance apart (about 9 miles closer) as DePaul and Valpo, and are in the same TV market as well.  Dayton would likely have to make it so painfully obvious of an add through several deep tourney runs for the rest of the league and the TV partners to determine that they'd be a good enough fit to ignore that.  I'd imagine that it would be the same for Valpo and/or Loyola.

[IrishDawg]

In terms of MVC adds, I don't think much has changed.  The best candidates are Murray State and Belmont, but I'm not sure either school helps the league get multiple bids, but if more and more of the major conferences move to a 20 game conference schedule, there might not much that the MVC can do but grab one of those two (most likely Murray State) and follow suit.

[crusadermoe]

SLU or nobody. You all know how I feel.    In reality of the Power 5 climate I don't think ANY school within the reach of the MVC can make us a 2-bid league.  Not to rain on a parade, but the years when our entrant wins NCAA games will be few.  Wichita State is gone and reputations take time to build for an at-large.   

However,....... I think SLU might be a cash engine for the MVC schools in total by increasing the TV rights due to St. Louis market viewership and more traveling fans to road games in many directions.  The MVC could offer SLU a low entry fee or none in exchange for a share of ticket revenue gains from SLU.  More alumni of the MVC schools live in St. Louis than alumni of the Atlantic 10 schools.  By far!!     

As I have said before, many conference tournaments in other sports could be played in St. Louis and draw more fans from all schools. Those are shared revenues as well.  Arch Madness can be a model for other sports.  Baseball would draw well in St. Louis and soccer, volleyball, and womens' hoops could start small and grow. Casual fans in St. Louis might start coming, but the main draw would be traveling alumni from the MVC schools.