The inept Pioneer conference

usc4valpo · October 22, 2017, 11:14:53 AM

I was looking at the Sagarin ratings and noticed that Valpo is out of the bottom ten for the first time in awhile! That's great and I guess this shows progress. However, there are many Pioneer conference teams at the bottom in the Sagarin ratings, indicating a very weak and possibly weakest conference in college football.

JD24 · October 22, 2017, 11:28:38 AM

Awesome take

VULB#62 · October 22, 2017, 11:56:50 AM

USC, I don't know if you scrolled way down to the conference ratings, but the PFL is listed at #32 out of 33 D-I ( A and AA) conferences. We are just below the Patriot League and just above the SWAC-East. That pretty much documents your assertion.

JD24 · October 22, 2017, 01:44:50 PM

I hope this wasn't a bulletin to anyone.

valpotx · October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PM

As the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?

VULB#62 · October 22, 2017, 02:28:23 PM

Quote from: valpotx on October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
As the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?

There ya go.

bbtds · October 22, 2017, 04:05:47 PM

Quote from: valpotx on October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
As the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?

The Patriot League and technically the Ivy League are non-scholarship football conferences.

That's why we got Cecchini because he previously coached at Lehigh in the non-scholarship Patriot League and at Harvard in the non-scholarship Ivy League.

IndyValpo · October 22, 2017, 04:18:28 PM

Quote from: bbtds on October 22, 2017, 04:05:47 PM
Quote from: valpotx on October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
As the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?

The Patriot League and technically the Ivy League are non-scholarship football conferences.

That's why we got Cecchini because he previously coached at Lehigh in the non-scholarship Patriot League and at Harvard in the non-scholarship Ivy League.

The Patriot gives 15 full scholarships in football as of 2013.

bbtds · October 22, 2017, 04:28:27 PM

Quote from: IndyValpo on October 22, 2017, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: bbtds on October 22, 2017, 04:05:47 PM
Quote from: valpotx on October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
As the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?

The Patriot League and technically the Ivy League are non-scholarship football conferences.

That's why we got Cecchini because he previously coached at Lehigh in the non-scholarship Patriot League and at Harvard in the non-scholarship Ivy League.

The Patriot gives 15 full scholarships in football as of 2013.

My bad. I had forgotten the Patriot League started to give scholarships. So it makes perfect sense that the non-scholarship Pioneer Football League would appear to be "inept" compared to the other scholarship football conferences in the Football Championship Series (FCS), formally Div.1 AA.

JD24 · October 22, 2017, 07:51:51 PM

I get the impression that the aid offered in the Patriot League is equal to about a 3/4 scholarship for a good portion of the roster of a football team. This is based on a few articles I've read on the situation. I'm also not sure that offering athletic scholarships changes what they were offering to any one player either. I think a good part of the granting of the scholarships is that it makes the programs eligible to play FBS teams and, thus, grab a bigger payday to have their butts kicked once a season.

Even under the best of circumstances (most aid available), I think a Valpo player is paying at least half. An Ivy League athlete, who has to qualify academically first, pending on need can attend at no cost (tuition at least....I'm not sure about room and board).

UNIFTW · October 23, 2017, 12:24:53 PM

Quote from: IndyValpo on October 22, 2017, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: bbtds on October 22, 2017, 04:05:47 PM
Quote from: valpotx on October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PM
As the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?

The Patriot League and technically the Ivy League are non-scholarship football conferences.

That's why we got Cecchini because he previously coached at Lehigh in the non-scholarship Patriot League and at Harvard in the non-scholarship Ivy League.

The Patriot gives 15 full scholarships in football as of 2013.

Patriot gives 60

JD24 · October 23, 2017, 01:53:36 PM

Quote from: UNIFTW on October 23, 2017, 12:24:53 PM
Quote from: IndyValpo on October 22, 2017, 04:18:28 PM
Quote from: bbtds on October 22, 2017, 04:05:47 PM
Quote from: valpotx on October 22, 2017, 02:07:34 PMAs the only non-scholarship conference, why would this surprise anyone?
The Patriot League and technically the Ivy League are non-scholarship football conferences. That's why we got Cecchini because he previously coached at Lehigh in the non-scholarship Patriot League and at Harvard in the non-scholarship Ivy League.
The Patriot gives 15 full scholarships in football as of 2013.
Patriot gives 60

15 each year. 60 max at any given time spread out over a max of 85 players.

I think this year is the first year that all of the maxes are used.

UNIFTW · October 23, 2017, 05:05:37 PM

They are now at the full 60 starting last year.

FCS can give 63 over 85 players

They are essentially full scholarship.

3 less scholarships means nothing.

Schools like UNI, Montana, NDSU, etc. only give between 58-61 each year anyway and bank a couple.

VULB#62 · October 23, 2017, 06:46:23 PM

Quote from: UNIFTW on October 23, 2017, 05:05:37 PM
They are now at the full 60 starting last year.

FCS can give 63 over 85 players

They are essentially full scholarship.

3 less scholarships means nothing.

Schools like UNI, Montana, NDSU, etc. only give between 58-61 each year anyway and bank a couple.

The Patriot has a long way to go. The hole they dug is very deep and the slope is steep. Teams like Colgate, Bucknell, and Holy Cross used to be scholarship.

Despite this, I can not believe that the NEC is actually rated 2 slots above the Patriot.

usc4valpo · October 24, 2017, 07:51:21 AM

My bad for the negativity - it was just interesting to see so many Pioneer teams at the bottom of the Sagarin poll.

Lurking Dog · October 25, 2017, 03:27:41 PM

Supposedly, there is no unmet need for Ivy League students. No student loans. But in football, the main hook is admission itself.

Ivy coaches get 15 admission slots a year. Although football players must have academic credentials within certain parameters, they generally would not be admitted unless they were football recruits. Ivy recruiters' biggest fear is that a kid will work the coach for an admissions slot, then quit the team.

Lurking Dog · October 25, 2017, 03:31:13 PM

Speaking of the PFL, Presbyterian College will reportedly decide on Nov 11th whether or not to drop football scholarships. Obviously, dropping scholarships would imply that they'll seek PFL membership.

VULB#62 · October 25, 2017, 04:15:40 PM

Quote from: Lurking Dog on October 25, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
Speaking of the PFL, Presbyterian College will reportedly decide on Nov 11th whether or not to drop football scholarships. Obviously, dropping scholarships would imply that they'll seek PFL membership.

If they vote to stay with FB scholarships, I would assume that along with that vote there will need to be a funding infusion to strengthen the FB commitment and not just sit at the status quo.

OTOH, if they discontinue FB scholarship, I would assume that Presbyterian would have to work some deals:

First with their scholarship players. I would expect a number of transfers out right away. That's not a problem though the incoming freshman class would need to be sizeable to make up for those losses and loses to graduation. I would imagne most transfers would occur among younger players with lots of football elegibility left -- older ones (RS Jrs and Seniors?) might accept whatever need-based aid there was available just to graduate and get out.

Second with the PFL. A former scholarship program almost by definition will have considerable talent coming over to the PFL. Wouldn't there need to be some guarantees that football scholarships are discontinued immediately and not phased out over, say, three years? And that all players are on need-based aid for the first PFL game.

Lurking Dog · October 25, 2017, 05:56:07 PM

I would think that current scholarships would be honored, much as Valpo and Butler players were allowed to keep their scholarships when the PFL started. Possible the league could make Presbyterian ineligible for the championship for a couple years. All subject to negotiation...

valpotx · October 25, 2017, 11:55:11 PM

I have a fondness for Presbyterian College. As part of one of the summer baseball leagues I played in during 2 college summers, I had 3-4 Blue Hose teammates, back when they were D-2. I would have a lot of fun with those guys, if we played them in a game

.

VULB#62 · October 30, 2017, 10:31:57 PM

This isn't a PFL-specific post, but it is directed at a PFL team: Marist.

I checked their forum and noted that the posters there are posting severe criticism of the administration, coaches, and whatever they can find. The mediocrity that 4 years ago we'd die for is not enough. Now there is talk about getting rid of football. It seems one culprit is the pursuit of academic excellence. Give me a break.

bbtds · October 31, 2017, 06:02:18 AM

Quote from: Lurking Dog on October 25, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
Speaking of the PFL, Presbyterian College will reportedly decide on Nov 11th whether or not to drop football scholarships. Obviously, dropping scholarships would imply that they'll seek PFL membership.

At least those players that do stay will always be PC.

Dave_2010 · October 31, 2017, 08:34:22 AM

Quote from: bbtds on October 31, 2017, 06:02:18 AM
Quote from: Lurking Dog on October 25, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
Speaking of the PFL, Presbyterian College will reportedly decide on Nov 11th whether or not to drop football scholarships. Obviously, dropping scholarships would imply that they'll seek PFL membership.

At least those players that do stay will always be PC.

Presbyterians don't decide...god has already preordained the fate of their football scholarships.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

VULB#62 · October 31, 2017, 09:18:17 AM

If, indeed, there is a Campbell for Presbyterian swap in the PFL, Valpo road trips there will not be much different. Just like Buies Creek, NC, Clinton, SC is also in a rural town. It is about 58 miles west of the state capital, Columbia.

We would be trading up a teenie bit in terms of playing facilities. Their stadiium, built in 2002, is a beautiful 6,500 seat stadium with a multiple level press box and a football field house at the north end with lockerspace, etc. Looks like a great place to watch a game.

While we are on this subject there iare also rumblings taht Georgetown might ditch scholarships all-together and also join the PFL. Apparently G'Town provides the lowest level of support for FB in the 7 member Patriot League and is a football-only member. Currently G'Town is 1-7 overall and 03 in the Patriot. They are 0-7 since beating Campbell 16-10 to open the season. Marist beat them 14-12 in game #2. 3 Ivy league schools chewed them up.

JD24 · October 31, 2017, 10:40:58 AM

Quote from: VULB#62 on October 30, 2017, 10:31:57 PMThis isn't a PFL-specific post, but it is directed at a PFL team: Marist. I checked their forum and noted that the posters there are posting severe criticism of the administration, coaches, and whatever they can find. The mediocrity that 4 years ago we'd die for is not enough. Now there is talk about getting rid of football. It seems one culprit is the pursuit of academic excellence. Give me a break.

The Red Fox fans have an overly high opinion of where the football program has been and thus have some level of unearned elitism....or at least some of them do.