2018-19 VU Schedule

[VUGrad1314]

I think everyone is over exaggerating a little. Everyone here seems to be taking a "fan" perspective (which I understand), but from a team/University perspective this is a pretty solid schedule. Obviously, not having great home game is disappointing for fans. But, the strength of schedule overall is pretty solid, teams like George Washington and Ball State besides West Virginia and Texas A&M are nice contributions. Sure, a couple of cupcakes but this is more a matter of circumstance than wish. Furthermore, with such a young roster overall, playing a large amount of away games in hostile environments or neutral courts will certainly benefit the team during the conference schedule. Similarly, the ultimate aim is postseason. Any postseason requires success on neutral and away games. So, this experience really could be crucial moving forward. Again, absolutely, yes, I agree, the lack of home games is disappointing for us fans. But let's take a minute and think about the overall plus/minuses of the schedule before we go throwing around terms like "simply unacceptable." There are definitely quite a few benefits with the schedule to the health of the team, even if it means the fans sacrifice.

Why should anyone go see this team play three teams in the bottom 20% of college basketball and two teams not even in Division 1? How does this home non-conference schedule increase (or even sustain) fan interest? And remember, this is now two years in a row with an awful non-conference home schedule (and this one is worse than last year).

The home schedule isn't great, but there are a lot of opportunities away from home for good/great wins.  My hope is if this team gets some good wins away from home that Valpo fans will come out to support their team no matter what the quality of the opponent might be.  You either support your team or you don't.

Eddie makes some good points.  Even a vaulted program like Butler has Tiffin (?), Southern Indiana (?) Presbyterian, UC-Irvine and Brown on their home schedule.

To be fair, they are in a much better position to absorb that than we are. The committee won't care as long as they beat Villanova Xavier Marquette Seton Hall and Creighton.

[VULB#62]

There has been some emotional responses to the OOC schedule just released -- most of it directed at the home games.  Granted, the plus side is weighted toward the away and neutral games but the home side is taking a licking.

I'd like to offer a more long-term perspective to what is happening and I think the athletic department and MBB is doing the same. 

We were setting last year's schedule coming out of the HL and adjusting to our new MVC membership.  This year we labored under a losing record, yet, here is the analysis from the Valpo schedule release

"Valpo will play at least nine games this season against top-100 RPI teams from last year, including three at home, and 18 against top-150 RPI teams, including seven at home, versus just two years ago, when Valpo played just four top-100 opponents from the previous year and only 11 games against top-150 opponents, including just three at home.

Is this a sprint or a distance race?  This is our first full scheduling year as a real MVC member (we just joined the MVC last year in July) and there is a marked improvement (overall).  If we win some big OOC games this season and finish in the top half of the MVC, we will have gained the cred to further improve our schedule.  We have to earn our opponents' respect and that will help to improve our home schedule -- but it will take time. If this season is as good as we hope, next year's OOC and home schedule will be the real litmus test. If it is still poor next year, then I'll jump on the band wagon with the criics. Please remember that Loyola took 5 years to get where they are now.

[VUGrad1314]

Nobody should be complaining about the schedule as a whole. In fact, on balance it may be one of the finest they've  ever crafted especially when quality of conference is factored in. The problem is that there appears to be so little to get excited about for local fans prior to MVC play. I actually like that they have plenty of time to prepare for every major opponent except Texas A&M. Next year should be better. Just please, no more non-D1s and give us better tune-up games.

[wh]

I don't disagree that there are quality road and neutral court opponents on the schedule, but shouldn't there be? Agreeing to play someone at their place or finding a spot in 1 of myriad early season tournaments is the easy stuff. Where good schedulers earn their money is in putting together respectable home schedules, and Luke Gore, et al., failed once again. There are some good home schedules this year in the MVC. Inexcusably, Valpo's is nowhere among them.

[VUGrad1314]

Some teams I think could be on the schedule either as buy games or series starters next year (when Smits  Evelyn and Golder are seniors)

For Evelyn: Michigan Michigan State Eastern Michigan Oakland UDM

For Smits: IUPUI Butler

For Golder: Oregon Oregon State Portland Portland State

[VU2014]

Some teams I think could be on the schedule either as buy games or series starters next year (when Smits and Evelyn are seniors)

For Evelyn: Michigan Michigan State Eastern Michigan Oakland UDM

For Smits: IUPUI Butler

I don't think we should be giving anyone a "hometown" game next season unless it makes sense for that particular seasons goals or helps provide a future benefit. Until IUPUI or UDM proves they aren't bottom dweller in a now terrible conference, we shouldn't consider them.

I don't disagree that there are quality road and neutral court opponents on the schedule, but shouldn't there be? Agreeing to play someone at their place or finding a spot in 1 of myriad early season tournaments is the easy stuff. Where good schedulers earn their money is in putting together respectable home schedules, and Luke Gore, et al., failed once again. There are some good home schedules this year in the MVC. Inexcusably, Valpo's is nowhere among them.

Getting into these good Neutral Site tournaments are not as easy as you'd think. It's amazing that we were able to get in this tournament to begin with considering we were suppose to be playing in the Great Alaskan Shootout that got canceled on us last minute and we had to go scrambling. We landed in a better situation.

It's pretty clear that we sacrificed this seasons home OOC for next years schedule. It's understandable and smart but it's just disappointing that this seasons Home OOC is so bad. It's all about next season and putting ourselves in the position possible.

As others have said when you take a macro view of the strength of schedule it's quite good. The away schedule is tough and not any cupcakes on the road. We need tune-up games where the guys won't be taking haymakers out of the gates. We have some games that should be wins that will allow the young guys and Fazekas to find their groove, before we ramp it up against real competition. There is also a nice test against Ball State sprinkled in the middle. (how the hell can we not manage to start scheduling this BSU vs VU games when students are on campus. FIGURE IT OUT).

[EddieCabot]

I think everyone is over exaggerating a little. Everyone here seems to be taking a "fan" perspective (which I understand), but from a team/University perspective this is a pretty solid schedule. Obviously, not having great home game is disappointing for fans. But, the strength of schedule overall is pretty solid, teams like George Washington and Ball State besides West Virginia and Texas A&M are nice contributions. Sure, a couple of cupcakes but this is more a matter of circumstance than wish. Furthermore, with such a young roster overall, playing a large amount of away games in hostile environments or neutral courts will certainly benefit the team during the conference schedule. Similarly, the ultimate aim is postseason. Any postseason requires success on neutral and away games. So, this experience really could be crucial moving forward.

Again, absolutely, yes, I agree, the lack of home games is disappointing for us fans. But let's take a minute and think about the overall plus/minuses of the schedule before we go throwing around terms like "simply unacceptable." There are definitely quite a few benefits with the schedule to the health of the team, even if it means the fans sacrifice.

Why should anyone go see this team play three teams in the bottom 20% of college basketball and two teams not even in Division 1? How does this home non-conference schedule increase (or even sustain) fan interest? And remember, this is now two years in a row with an awful non-conference home schedule (and this one is worse than last year).

The home schedule isn't great, but there are a lot of opportunities away from home for good/great wins.  My hope is if this team gets some good wins away from home that Valpo fans will come out to support their team no matter what the quality of the opponent might be.  You either support your team or you don't.

Eddie makes some good points.  Even a vaulted program like Butler has Tiffin (?), Southern Indiana (?) Presbyterian, UC-Irvine and Brown on their home schedule.

Wow ... those are some bad games.  How many fans will show up to Butler Fieldhouse to see those opponents?

I'm also surprised they have 2 non-DI opponents ... probably have these for RPI purposes.

[SanityLost17]

Obviously the home non-con sucks and we can and should be mad.   

However, the ENTIRE home schedule (mvc conference games included) is still way better than anything we had while members of the HL after Butler left.  At that point even if we got 2-3 really nice home games for the non-con our conference home schedule was just freaking terrible. 

So, for those threatening to give up their season tickets.  Settle down Mr. Hyperbolic.  Keep your dang tickets as the total value this year is still higher. 

[IrishDawg]

Butler's non-D1 opponents are exhibition games.  If they played D-1 opponents in those, no one would be able to attend.  Based on last year's attendance at their exhibition games, about 7,600 will be in attendance each of the exhibition games.

In terms of their bad D1 games, based on the Kennesaw State (9138), Youngstown State (8022), Western Illinois (7,779) and Morehead State (7122) last year, they'll average about 8,000 (9100 is capacity now) in the Presbyrterian, UC Irvine and Brown matchups.

[ml2]

I don't disagree that there are quality road and neutral court opponents on the schedule, but shouldn't there be? Agreeing to play someone at their place or finding a spot in 1 of myriad early season tournaments is the easy stuff. Where good schedulers earn their money is in putting together respectable home schedules, and Luke Gore, et al., failed once again. There are some good home schedules this year in the MVC. Inexcusably, Valpo's is nowhere among them.

Agree that just getting into any early season tournament is not that difficult, however getting into an early season tournament that includes the opportunity to play a P5 team(s) on a neutral court is another matter entirely. That is very difficult for a mid-major and usually involves 1) building relationships with the people running the tournaments (often by playing in an inferior tournament they run first), 2) planning an additional year or two in advance relative to all other basketball scheduling and 3) a six figure entry fee payment - a major investment for programs without P5 money.

[IrishDawg]

Obviously the home non-con sucks and we can and should be mad.   

However, the ENTIRE home schedule (mvc conference games included) is still way better than anything we had while members of the HL after Butler left.  At that point even if we got 2-3 really nice home games for the non-con our conference home schedule was just freaking terrible. 

So, for those threatening to give up their season tickets.  Settle down Mr. Hyperbolic.  Keep your dang tickets as the total value this year is still higher.

Completely agree.  The schedule is much better now in the MVC than what the HL would offer right now.  The issue is that despite the better league, it doesn't seem to have had a positive effect on attendance.  Could be the team's record as shown below.  Maybe with Loyola's F4 run more people will show up this year.

Valpo's average home attendance per the NCAA documentation and record for the year:
2017-18 (15-17): 2,722
2016-17 (24-9): 3,086
2015-16 (30-7): 3,572
2014-15 (28-6): 3,066
2013-14 (18-16): 2,833
2012-13 (26-8): 3,173
2011-12 (22-12): 3,383

[wh]

Obviously the home non-con sucks and we can and should be mad.   

However, the ENTIRE home schedule (mvc conference games included) is still way better than anything we had while members of the HL after Butler left.  At that point even if we got 2-3 really nice home games for the non-con our conference home schedule was just freaking terrible. 

So, for those threatening to give up their season tickets.  Settle down Mr. Hyperbolic.  Keep your dang tickets as the total value this year is still higher. 

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone threaten to give up their tickets. I know I didn't. That said, hopefully you can appreciate that those who pay hundreds of dollars every year to support the program through multiple season ticket purchases might legitimately take a bad home OOC schedule more personally than those who don't. How we might take the parking situation more personally than someone who follows the program from Kentucky (pick a state), etc.

[VULB#62]

I don't disagree that there are quality road and neutral court opponents on the schedule, but shouldn't there be? Agreeing to play someone at their place or finding a spot in 1 of myriad early season tournaments is the easy stuff. Where good schedulers earn their money is in putting together respectable home schedules, and Luke Gore, et al., failed once again. There are some good home schedules this year in the MVC. Inexcusably, Valpo's is nowhere among them.

Agree that just getting into any early season tournament is not that difficult, however getting into an early season tournament that includes the opportunity to play a P5 team(s) on a neutral court is another matter entirely. That is very difficult for a mid-major and usually involves 1) building relationships with the people running the tournaments (often by playing in an inferior tournament they run first), 2) planning an additional year or two in advance relative to all other basketball scheduling and 3) a six figure entry fee payment - a major investment for programs without P5 money.

Six or five?  Six means paying over $100,000 to play.  That is a BIG expense that a school like Valpo would have a hard time with I would think.  Paying 5 figures (say, $20,000) would not be as exorbitant.

[vu72]

Obviously the home non-con sucks and we can and should be mad.   

However, the ENTIRE home schedule (mvc conference games included) is still way better than anything we had while members of the HL after Butler left.  At that point even if we got 2-3 really nice home games for the non-con our conference home schedule was just freaking terrible. 

So, for those threatening to give up their season tickets.  Settle down Mr. Hyperbolic.  Keep your dang tickets as the total value this year is still higher.

Completely agree.  The schedule is much better now in the MVC than what the HL would offer right now.  The issue is that despite the better league, it doesn't seem to have had a positive effect on attendance.  Could be the team's record as shown below.  Maybe with Loyola's F4 run more people will show up this year.

Valpo's average home attendance per the NCAA documentation and record for the year:
2017-18 (15-17): 2,722
2016-17 (24-9): 3,086
2015-16 (30-7): 3,572
2014-15 (28-6): 3,066
2013-14 (18-16): 2,833
2012-13 (26-8): 3,173
2011-12 (22-12): 3,383

For sure. 3500 is about 10% of the Valpo City population.  If we only were located in a metro area of over 2 million, maybe we could draw 8,000!

[EddieCabot]

I don't disagree that there are quality road and neutral court opponents on the schedule, but shouldn't there be? Agreeing to play someone at their place or finding a spot in 1 of myriad early season tournaments is the easy stuff. Where good schedulers earn their money is in putting together respectable home schedules, and Luke Gore, et al., failed once again. There are some good home schedules this year in the MVC. Inexcusably, Valpo's is nowhere among them.

Agree that just getting into any early season tournament is not that difficult, however getting into an early season tournament that includes the opportunity to play a P5 team(s) on a neutral court is another matter entirely. That is very difficult for a mid-major and usually involves 1) building relationships with the people running the tournaments (often by playing in an inferior tournament they run first), 2) planning an additional year or two in advance relative to all other basketball scheduling and 3) a six figure entry fee payment - a major investment for programs without P5 money.

Six or five?  Six means paying over $100,000 to play.  That is a BIG expense that a school like Valpo would have a hard time with I would think.  Paying 5 figures (say, $20,000) would not be as exorbitant.

That seems high to me also, but ml2 would know.  It may also depend on the tournament, as I've read that tourneys like Maui and Bahamas actually pay significant money for teams to participate.

http://www.thebahamasweekly.com/publish/sports/Battle_4_Atlantis_Teams_Announced_for_November_2011_Tournament15544.shtml

[IrishDawg]

For sure. 3500 is about 10% of the Valpo City population.  If we only were located in a metro area of over 2 million, maybe we could draw 8,000!

I understand it's easy to dislike me because I'm a Butler fan, but metro Indy is a much bigger area than you might think.

Indianapolis Metro area - 6,029 square miles

Area of Northwest Indiana (Lake, Porter, LaPorte, Starke, Pulaski, Newton, Jasper counties) and Cook and Will County Illinois - 5,958 square miles
Population - 6,773,164

[elephtheria47]

While I agree valpo should and needs to be drawing more than 3,500, that is nowhere near a fair comparison.

[VUGrad1314]

Of course in that area, you still have Loyola UIC DePaul and Northwestern as competing schools plus all the attractions of Chicago to contend with. Also when you get down to the Jasper\Newton\Starke\Pulaski County area you begin to come under the influence of Purdue. A good portion of LaPorte County falls under Notre Dame's sphere of influence and they also carry a lot of weight in Porter County. We won't pull many from Illinois, except for family and friends of players. Our best hope is to market to NWI as best we can.

[FieldGoodie05]

For sure. 3500 is about 10% of the Valpo City population.  If we only were located in a metro area of over 2 million, maybe we could draw 8,000!

I understand it's easy to dislike me because I'm a Butler fan, but metro Indy is a much bigger area than you might think.

Indianapolis Metro area - 6,029 square miles

Area of Northwest Indiana (Lake, Porter, LaPorte, Starke, Pulaski, Newton, Jasper counties) and Cook and Will County Illinois - 5,958 square miles
Population - 6,773,164

For what it's worth, I don't hate Butler as some do on this board.  The only item I have disagreement with is that Cook and Will county should not be included in that equation.  The density of population only adds to the unlikely interest of the population from the IL counties.  For crap sake it takes me 50 minutes to travel 17-miles and I am not even in Chicago proper . . . . time of travel plays an outsized roll in possible attendees to college sporting events.

[wh]

While exploring demographic info for Valpo and Butler, I came across something called "College Combat." If you plug in Valpo and Butler, it assigns and compares letter grades (A-F) for both schools in several performance areas. Pretty interesting tool. BTW accumulatively Valpo earns a higher grade.

https://www.collegefactual.com/tools/college-combat/#valparaiso-university~butler-university

[IrishDawg]

For what it's worth, I don't hate Butler as some do on this board.  The only item I have disagreement with is that Cook and Will county should not be included in that equation.  The density of population only adds to the unlikely interest of the population from the IL counties.  For crap sake it takes me 50 minutes to travel 17-miles and I am not even in Chicago proper . . . . time of travel plays an outsized roll in possible attendees to college sporting events.

Fair enough - I think we can all agree that there are a ton of factors that go into attendance at a game at any school, not just how many people live in an area.  Otherwise Big Ten programs, who generally aren't in major metropolitan areas wouldn't average as many fans as they do.

[FieldGoodie05]

For what it's worth, I don't hate Butler as some do on this board.  The only item I have disagreement with is that Cook and Will county should not be included in that equation.  The density of population only adds to the unlikely interest of the population from the IL counties.  For crap sake it takes me 50 minutes to travel 17-miles and I am not even in Chicago proper . . . . time of travel plays an outsized roll in possible attendees to college sporting events.

Fair enough - I think we can all agree that there are a ton of factors that go into attendance at a game at any school, not just how many people live in an area.  Otherwise Big Ten programs, who generally aren't in major metropolitan areas wouldn't average as many fans as they do.

No argument here.  I am more gripping about my crappy travel time than anything 

[ml2]

Check out this article about Nevada's non-conference schedule costs last year. It gives numbers for their non-D1 and D1 buy games, as well as for Nevada's participation in a Tournament in Las Vegas. From my understanding the dollar amounts and contract terms are pretty typical for college basketball right now.

https://www.rgj.com/story/sports/college/nevada/2017/10/27/why-nevada-basketballs-non-league-schedule-cost-200-000/806706001/

Relating specifically to the tournament, based on the article details, Nevada paid over $200k to "Las Vegas Tournamnt Inc." and got home games against Radford and UC Davis, and neutral site games against Southern Illinois and San Francisco. (the article breaks these payments out on a per game basis, but since the money is going to the tournament promoter and not the opposing school, it's really better to look at this collectively as payment for tournament participation, as opposed to individual "buy" games).

[FieldGoodie05]

While exploring demographic info for Valpo and Butler, I came across something called "College Combat." If you plug in Valpo and Butler, it assigns and compares letter grades (A-F) for both schools in several performance areas. Pretty interesting tool. BTW accumulatively Valpo earns a higher grade.

https://www.collegefactual.com/tools/college-combat/#valparaiso-university~butler-university

WH, that is a nifty little toy.  Thanks for sharing.  I might have missed a school, but it looks like this ranking has us winning head-to-head against all other MVC teams at present in those categories.

[ValpoDad89]

Agree that just getting into any early season tournament is not that difficult, however getting into an early season tournament that includes the opportunity to play a P5 team(s) on a neutral court is another matter entirely. That is very difficult for a mid-major and usually involves 1) building relationships with the people running the tournaments (often by playing in an inferior tournament they run first), 2) planning an additional year or two in advance relative to all other basketball scheduling and 3) a six figure entry fee payment - a major investment for programs without P5 money.

Thanks ml2!!! We are now educated to the politics and nuances of how these early season tourneys are structured and tiered. One and two make total sense but I wasn't aware of #3. I never knew you had to pay to get into these things at this level. Grammar and High School tourneys I know always required payment for refs, renting of equipment, etc. I figured on the major college level corporate sponsorships and TV money took care of the costs associated. Lets hope the 6 figure investment turns into some quality wins and great program exposure.