Iona @ Valpo Game Thread - Wednesday 7:05, CIT First Round

[Pgmado]

Some nuggets that didn't get into my story from tonight.

* Broekhoff has been very sick and lost 11 pounds during the last night (not all of it from his hair). If you looked at him close enough during the game, you could see that his face had definitely lost some weight. It was noticeable enough for me to ask Homer about it in the postgame and he responded with the 11 pounds.

* We asked Homer about Brandon Wood and why he played so little and Drew responded that Brandon was struggling with a back injury that limited him.

[rlh]

I heard Bryce talking after the game and he said that Brandon, Ryan and another player were all struggling with illness or injury and had not been able to practise much.   I know for a fact that Ryan was really unwell in the last two games of the season and so was going to struggle with energy and fitness for this one.   A disappointing end but I am still really proud of the team and also Cory and Ryan for playing out of position in the 4/5 and being up against bigger and stronger bodies as rlh pointed out.

Homer said that Ryan has lost 11 pounds in the last week.  I thought he looked a little emaciated, but didn't realize it was that bad...and Brandon has a back problem and just couldn't get loose.  I was hoping that with the time off all that would take care of itself, but apparently not.  Not sure how much difference it would have made tonight anyway.

[koala]

There you go and that is why Ryan also struggled in the last two games of the season as well he has been one sick young man and what a shame Brandon was not 100% either.   Sure does make sense now why they were down and why Ryan's shots kept falling short.   Shows great courage that they even played tonight.

[mj]

The secret stash of European 7-footers is gone.  And skilled big men are going to go to bigger better programs.  I would settle for a muscle-bound, bruising 6-7 power forward if we could get one.  I am tired of 6-9, 185lb. power forwards with perimeter shooting skills.

I agree. Milos aka "the marshmallow beast" turned out to be soft and Cory was often undersized. We need a guy like Glover from Iona. Or someone like J'Nathan Bullock. I was hoping Richie Edwards was going to be that guy, but apparently that's not really his game.

[csd72]

I hope that he gets better. I wondered what was going on because he just did not look the same.

There you go and that is why Ryan also struggled in the last two games of the season as well he has been one sick young man and what a shame Brandon was not 100% either.   Sure does make sense now why they were down and why Ryan's shots kept falling short.   Shows great courage that they even played tonight.

[valpopal]

I also noticed Ryan looked thin last night, and I commented on it at the game. However, Iona's players at all five positions appeared noticeably much stronger and a lot more muscular. I hope our team looks at photos from the game and takes away the lesson that it needs to spend a great deal of time the next six months in the weight room.   

I hope that he gets better. I wondered what was going on because he just did not look the same.

There you go and that is why Ryan also struggled in the last two games of the season as well he has been one sick young man and what a shame Brandon was not 100% either.   Sure does make sense now why they were down and why Ryan's shots kept falling short.   Shows great courage that they even played tonight.

[nkvu]

The secret stash of European 7-footers is gone.  And skilled big men are going to go to bigger better programs.  I would settle for a muscle-bound, bruising 6-7 power forward if we could get one.  I am tired of 6-9, 185lb. power forwards with perimeter shooting skills.

And yet, other schools in the Horizon League seem to be able to find true bigs that can play.  Ours seem to wash out like Arden, Brian (the head case)Calum, Cam (though I really thought he might develop based on his Freshman year) and now maybe Vucic.  What is wrong with our recruiting?  Do we have a problem evaluating bigs, or do we just have to settle for the tallest guys we can find & cross our fingers that they might someday develop a low post game?  We have to fix this.

[valporun]

I think we're spending more time than necessary looking for solid point and shooting guards, with the occasional true forward. Sadlly, when we're trying to find big men, we're finding what can get to fill out the roster, instead of something that can help almost immediately. Most of the big men we've found are projects at best, and they've picked pine on the bench, or flamed out, and left... if they even got to VU at all. I'm getting tired of our recruiting to the 5 years ago Horizon League that was guard-centric. Now we need to be focusing on what Valpo needs to compete, not what the league determines is the game. Get some bigs that are physical, and go hard to the basket, not soft and fading away from the rim. Also, I don't want to our 4 or 5 shooting from 19 feet out. I want them inside commanding the paint, posting up for those cheap lay-ups that get us free throws, and confident free throw shooters come from that. Our soft play inside led to many of the mistakes that cost us games.

[Mjj]

Will there be any video footage of the press conference?

[milanmiracle]

Sad.  Truely a sad end to the season.  Glad it wasn't in the NIT on National TV.  I think now we really overachieved during most of the season and only played to our true level at the end.  Iona has given the Horizon League a blueprint on how to play us next year.  Sag off ten feet on Buggs and make us play 4 on 5 on offense.  And unless we can dig up a true 5 with some skills, we will not be able to compete as we cannot shoot the 3 as a team consistantly enough to make up for it over the course of a season.

Sad thing is, it's no different if Kurth plays. Not being able to shoot and refusing to shoot are the same thing in my book. Let's hope Jay Harris has a breakout year and BWood stays.

[justducky]

Sad.  Truely a sad end to the season.  Glad it wasn't in the NIT on National TV.  I think now we really overachieved during most of the season and only played to our true level at the end.  Iona has given the Horizon League a blueprint on how to play us next year.  Sag off ten feet on Buggs and make us play 4 on 5 on offense.  And unless we can dig up a true 5 with some skills, we will not be able to compete as we cannot shoot the 3 as a team consistantly enough to make up for it over the course of a season.

Sad thing is, it's no different if Kurth plays. Not being able to shoot and refusing to shoot are the same thing in my book. Let's hope Jay Harris has a breakout year and BWood stays.

I think some of you might be overlooking just how exceptional our guard play could be next year. I'm looking foreward to Kurth returning to play along with Boggs. Given that and Matt, Brandon and a larger, more mature Jay you are as guard rich as anybody. I beleive that Erik will be assigned a Jarryd Loyd role (come off the bench- create turnovers- drive the lane). Even in that role it is critical that Erik improve both his 3-point and free throw shooting. If he does not his minutes should drop dramatically.

[Valpo89]

For anyone old enough to remember the movie "Meatballs" with Bill Murray, CIT reminds me of this song:

We are the C.I.T.s so pity us. / The kids are brats; the food is hideous. / We're gonna smoke and drink and fool around. / We're nookie-bound!... / We are the North Star C.I.T.s!

I just couldn't get this line out of my mind, so I looked it up on YouTube. Enjoy! It's better than last night's game.

Meatballs Final campfire

[milanmiracle]

Sad.  Truely a sad end to the season.  Glad it wasn't in the NIT on National TV.  I think now we really overachieved during most of the season and only played to our true level at the end.  Iona has given the Horizon League a blueprint on how to play us next year.  Sag off ten feet on Buggs and make us play 4 on 5 on offense.  And unless we can dig up a true 5 with some skills, we will not be able to compete as we cannot shoot the 3 as a team consistantly enough to make up for it over the course of a season.

Sad thing is, it's no different if Kurth plays. Not being able to shoot and refusing to shoot are the same thing in my book. Let's hope Jay Harris has a breakout year and BWood stays.

I think some of you might be overlooking just how exceptional our guard play could be next year. I'm looking foreward to Kurth returning to play along with Boggs. Given that and Matt, Brandon and a larger, more mature Jay you are as guard rich as anybody. I beleive that Erik will be assigned a Jarryd Loyd role (come off the bench- create turnovers- drive the lane). Even in that role it is critical that Erik improve both his 3-point and free throw shooting. If he does not his minutes should drop dramatically.

This is probably a whole different topic in and of itself, so I'll make my rundown breif.

BWood - Just the fact that he's thinking about leaving early tells you how good he really is.
Harris - A true freshman who can shoot and pass. Can get flustered at times, but isn't afraid to take shots. Needs to improve game management and shot selection. Should improve with a year of experience.
Buggs - Great defender, can't shoot to save his life. Still has moments of...I drove the lane, now what do I do?
Kenney - Has plenty of skills, but is still trying to find his niche on the team. 3 pt shooting dropped off dramatically.
Kurth - Doesn't turn the ball over, but doesn't create, refuses to shoot and is an even bigger liability on offense than Buggs. Solid defender.

[letsgovu]

disappointing loss.

Iona was tough.  They did a great job and I think they will probably win this.

I don't think our guys ever recovered from the 2 road losses.  Yes we had injuries, illness, long end of season with no rest, etc etc., but mentally I think they quit after that.

Wish the best to all the seniors and Brandon who will probably leave if he gets the opportunity.  Hope to see some new blood and hope the returning guys can shrug this off and break some of those records next year.

[valpo95]

A couple of quick observations.  As I watched the game last night, it just looked like the team was lacking in energy.  As Iona couldn't miss, maybe when they hit those shot it just took the wind out of our sails. 

Also, as Brandon Wood goes, so goes the team in most cases.  (He's our best offensive player, so this is not a criticism -- if anyone shuts down the opposition's best player, their chances are pretty good of winning.)  The numbers:  Wood had 8 games this season in single digits -- Valpo was 3-5 in those games.  He had 5 games where he shot <30% from the field, and Valpo was 1-4.  (The team when 1-1 when he didn't play -- the costly loss to UWGB at the ARC was one of those.)  Last night, Wood was 3-10 and had 7 total points, and Iona was really hitting shots.

Hey, all in all, if we would have said that the team would go 12-6 in conference and win 23 games for the year, most of us would have been pleased with that outcome.  It was a fun season.   Hope Brandon stays -- this team could be really good next year.

[covufan]

Yes, it was a disappointing loss.  If we hit our 3's and FT's more like our average, and defended their 3's closer to our average, it would have been a close game. 

All in all, it was a good season.  The games since the Missouri St. win have been disappointing - possibly because of higher expectations after our games up to the Missouri St. game.  Top 4 in conference and 23 wins is a very good season.  Even though we are losing some key members of the team, things are looking good for next season. 

[vu72]

I think we're spending more time than necessary looking for solid point and shooting guards, with the occasional true forward. Sadlly, when we're trying to find big men, we're finding what can get to fill out the roster, instead of something that can help almost immediately. Most of the big men we've found are projects at best, and they've picked pine on the bench, or flamed out, and left... if they even got to VU at all. I'm getting tired of our recruiting to the 5 years ago Horizon League that was guard-centric. Now we need to be focusing on what Valpo needs to compete, not what the league determines is the game. Get some bigs that are physical, and go hard to the basket, not soft and fading away from the rim. Also, I don't want to our 4 or 5 shooting from 19 feet out. I want them inside commanding the paint, posting up for those cheap lay-ups that get us free throws, and confident free throw shooters come from that. Our soft play inside led to many of the mistakes that cost us games.

So you don't think Homer, bryce et al are trying to recruit bigs that are physical and go hard to the rim??  Do you think the coaches are retarded?  The fact is that for every D1 big there are about 200 D1 guards. We take "projects" because we have to hope they develope because they aren't lined up to play at Valpo.  We get a Bouchie and he turns out to be a nut case.  Occasionally we get a Urule or Cory and frankly we never tried to get the kid from Green Bay who we probably could have gotten. 

We, and the coaches, all understand what we need.  If you know any bigs who would be of interest to Valpo make sure you call Luke Gore.

[cmack]

We need to cut loose the projects and the raw players.  Valpo is simply not a place that develops raw talent.  They leave as they come in.  Grabbing the tallest flagpole we can find and trying to develop him is a waste of a scholarship.  I am sure Vucic is a nice kid, but he is not a basketball player and never will be.

[rlh]

Apparently some think that recruiting is easy.  Just tell a big guy we want him, and he comes....remember there are a lot of colleges looking for these guys and they have their choice of schools.  Purdue is a perfect example of how you hope you're right even at a big school, and sometimes you miss.  Their three bigs behind Jujuan Johnson are still developing, but are certainly not there yet.  I promise you that Homer, Bryce, Luke, Chris, Jake and anyone else involved is looking bigs that can play.  The problem is getting them.  If they are already developed, our chance of getting them away from a larger schools isn't that good.

[theladybook]

Down the block from an apt in Manhattan where I spent a lot of time some years back was a bb court that always seemed packed with kids playing HORSE, 3 on 3, or just slamming the ball--and each other--around. Tough guys, aggressive. Diving, driving. And there are corner courts like that all over the city.

Four of the five starters from Iona were from four boroughs of NY, and the fifth was from Newark, a similar environment. As I watched their style of play last night, I could imagine every one of them learning the game like that, in their own neighborhoods. Keep playing that way and they'll go far.

[valpo84]

On bigs, it is a weak argument to say we haven't developed bigs. Chris Ensminger was a rail thin freshman who became a double-double machine, Joachim Gomes was terribly raw when he started at Valpo and left a hugely improved and stronger power forward and is an Olympic player today. Bouchie had huge upside had he stayed. Grafs and Viscovic and Tony V all became power bigs. Kenny Harris was improving and getting stronger. Our big issues started with the unfortunate health issues of Kenny, Bouchie would have solved that but left early. You don't just find 6'8" power guys in abundance. And, we recruit bigs all the time. We have had decent 7 footers come in for visits, but they pick other schools. We had a nice power guy potential transfer look seriously at us, but he picked elsewhere a couple years ago. We also had the big last year who bolted (good bad or indifferent). Biefeldt would really be a good get, so there's another power guy who we are recruiting. But suddenly Beilein sees who we are recruiting and now Michigan is recruiting him plus the Illinois situation so blame that on our coaches too. And Vucic will be better next year.

Second, this team didn't quit. They hustled and played hard the end of the season just like the first 26 games. They were gassed mentally and physically and were a step slow. Not from effort but because the step wasn't there. (I'm surprised we haven't discussed whether the early trip ultimately was good or a detriment later in the season). Harris hit the freshman wall but actually looked like the freshest v Iona. Little also looked fresher and was beating people to the hole. This team relied on being quicker. When Kenney went down again after the 2d Butler game, minutes piled up on a thin guard group, and Kenney wasn't as aggressive when he came back. He looked healthier but still not quite there. It is disappointing because of what might have been, but saying this team quit or wasn't playing hard are weak arguments. Putting yourself in holes early in games was a huge problem. That also takes its toll. This team still scrambled back to within 8 at the end against Iona after being down 17. That's not quitting. We've gone from 8 wins to 23 in 2 years, yeah these guys can't play or coach. (For rlh and stl, sarcasm clearly intended).

I'm disappointed about the season, but those players and coaches are also disappointed much more than you can imagine and much more so than some of the more biting critics on here. And look, criticism and analysis is fine and a spirited debate is great, and there is some tough analysis that can be brought to some games. But bring facts, examples and data too. Maybe all the situations around the world have made the commentary on here and other teams' boards and media sites more acerbic. But you know what, Valpo also teaches us and Homer is really good at teaching this too that Basketball or your job is not the most important thing in life -- your relationship with Christ is. And whether you win or lose a game, a promotion, a job, Christ is there always and forever. And, we should be very proud of this group for on and off the court behavior. There's no issues in the locker room. This was a great "team" and family. This past week's events in Japan and the other crises around the world bring that home. Not to get all preachy (it is a Lutheran school first and foremost), there is a bigger picture and our STUDENT-athletes get it, our coaches get it. Read the article about Cory again, read quotes from Jake or talk to him. Sparks is another example or Tonagel or JHawk. Talk to former players. Listen to Arden's music.

[rlh]

On bigs, it is a weak argument to say we haven't developed bigs. Chris Ensminger was a rail thin freshman who became a double-double machine, Joachim Gomes was terribly raw when he started at Valpo and left a hugely improved and stronger power forward and is an Olympic player today. Bouchie had huge upside had he stayed. Grafs and Viscovic and Tony V all became power bigs. Kenny Harris was improving and getting stronger. Our big issues started with the unfortunate health issues of Kenny, Bouchie would have solved that but left early. You don't just find 6'8" power guys in abundance. And, we recruit bigs all the time. We have had decent 7 footers come in for visits, but they pick other schools. We had a nice power guy potential transfer look seriously at us, but he picked elsewhere a couple years ago. We also had the big last year who bolted (good bad or indifferent). Biefeldt would really be a good get, so there's another power guy who we are recruiting. But suddenly Beilein sees who we are recruiting and now Michigan is recruiting him plus the Illinois situation so blame that on our coaches too. And Vucic will be better next year.

Second, this team didn't quit. They hustled and played hard the end of the season just like the first 26 games. They were gassed mentally and physically and were a step slow. Not from effort but because the step wasn't there. (I'm surprised we haven't discussed whether the early trip ultimately was good or a detriment later in the season). Harris hit the freshman wall but actually looked like the freshest v Iona. Little also looked fresher and was beating people to the hole. This team relied on being quicker. When Kenney went down again after the 2d Butler game, minutes piled up on a thin guard group, and Kenney wasn't as aggressive when he came back. He looked healthier but still not quite there. It is disappointing because of what might have been, but saying this team quit or wasn't playing hard are weak arguments. Putting yourself in holes early in games was a huge problem. That also takes its toll. This team still scrambled back to within 8 at the end against Iona after being down 17. That's not quitting. We've gone from 8 wins to 23 in 2 years, yeah these guys can't play or coach. (For rlh and stl, sarcasm clearly intended).

I'm disappointed about the season, but those players and coaches are also disappointed much more than you can imagine and much more so than some of the more biting critics on here. And look, criticism and analysis is fine and a spirited debate is great, and there is some tough analysis that can be brought to some games. But bring facts, examples and data too. Maybe all the situations around the world have made the commentary on here and other teams' boards and media sites more acerbic. But you know what, Valpo also teaches us and Homer is really good at teaching this too that Basketball or your job is not the most important thing in life -- your relationship with Christ is. And whether you win or lose a game, a promotion, a job, Christ is there always and forever. And, we should be very proud of this group for on and off the court behavior. There's no issues in the locker room. This was a great "team" and family. This past week's events in Japan and the other crises around the world bring that home. Not to get all preachy (it is a Lutheran school first and foremost), there is a bigger picture and our STUDENT-athletes get it, our coaches get it. Read the article about Cory again, read quotes from Jake or talk to him. Sparks is another example or Tonagel or JHawk. Talk to former players. Listen to Arden's music.

Not sure what you meant by pointing out StL and I, but we have never been negative about this team.  We've even been accussed of being too positive.  I agree with just about everything you said and I'm sure StL does also.  I believe you will notice that I posted how much I loved this team and enjoyed watching them play.  Not sure what else is to be said.

[cmack]

On bigs, it is a weak argument to say we haven't developed bigs. Chris Ensminger was a rail thin freshman who became a double-double machine, Joachim Gomes was terribly raw when he started at Valpo and left a hugely improved and stronger power forward and is an Olympic player today. Bouchie had huge upside had he stayed. Grafs and Viscovic and Tony V all became power bigs. Kenny Harris was improving and getting stronger. Our big issues started with the unfortunate health issues of Kenny, Bouchie would have solved that but left early. You don't just find 6'8" power guys in abundance. And, we recruit bigs all the time. We have had decent 7 footers come in for visits, but they pick other schools. We had a nice power guy potential transfer look seriously at us, but he picked elsewhere a couple years ago. We also had the big last year who bolted (good bad or indifferent). Biefeldt would really be a good get, so there's another power guy who we are recruiting. But suddenly Beilein sees who we are recruiting and now Michigan is recruiting him plus the Illinois situation so blame that on our coaches too. And Vucic will be better next year.

So Ensminger lifted some weights, okay if that counts as development.  Gomes did get marginally better by then end after 3 years of cringing every time he touched the ball so I will give you that one.  Bouchie had upside if he would have stayed--I am not sure how this means we developed his talent.  Zoran and Raitis were talented players from the beginning.  The walked in the door as strong players. Tony V was just a big bruiser who wasn't really good at basketball but damn he was intimidating.  I would take him back in a heartbeat.  Kenny Harris may have developed but I was pretty nervous that he was just an oversized high school player in a Valpo uniform.

I never accused us of not recruiting talented big men.  I just don't think we ever win the prize.  We get beat out by bigger schools everytime except for the occasional european.

And if Vucic makes even a mild impact on one game in his Valpo career, I will have myself a flying pig as a pet.

[valpo84]

We need to cut loose the projects and the raw players.  Valpo is simply not a place that develops raw talent.  They leave as they come in.  Grabbing the tallest flagpole we can find and trying to develop him is a waste of a scholarship.  I am sure Vucic is a nice kid, but he is not a basketball player and never will be.

Guess I missed the point of your post when you say "simply not a place that develops raw talent. They leave as they come in." And, as to Ensminger, there probably would have been a post that read like this when he was signed "Why are we signing a 6'10" flagpole who shoots from the outside. Sure he scored a bunch his senior year of HS, but he's a project and will never be an impact player." Or from his freshman year, "man, Ensminger is gauky and has no post presence. Somebody put him on the Steak n Shake diet. He needs to find the weight room. Will he ever contribute more than a couple boards and points a game." Or finally senior year, "Chris is not quick enough for the teams we're playing. 15 points and 11 rebounds a game are nice, but there's nights he needs to dominate more." Sorry, had to have a little fun there. And I think there was a Board or chat room during Gomes' years and it was not pretty, but he learned his body and listened to coaching. Zoran and Raitis were more skilled coming in and no one had heard of Latvia and Eastern Europe yet. But Grafs was not filled out and probably was described as Euro-soft his ffirst couple years.

We are always going to struggle to get the prized big man. The best big men are now 1 and done at the top schools (think the line of bigs at Ohio State the past few years -- Greg Oden, Koufos, Sullinger) or 2 and out at the next tier (maybe Perry Jones although more 1 and done). Hence the big schools need to stock pile and replenish every year. And, the mid-majors will fight over the scraps. UNC-A had a nice center the other night, DJ Cunningham, how did he get out of SE Ohio with 10 D1 schools in the state? Maybe he likes the mountains? It's not because no one had seen him. I don't disagree with you if the premise is it's tough to find and get bigs. And, I think next year Vucic will be much better and be a serviceable back up center his senior year. We'll go nose to tail on that pig if he is.

For rlh, the note on sarcasm was to help you know that my comment about the coaches and players was not to be taken at face value. There tends to be some confusion on this board from time to time about whether people are using sarcasm and whether it is properly recognized. In this case, it was to to designate that I (not you or STL) was not saying that the players couldn't play or the coaches couldn't coach and to avoid going down a rabbit hole on that topic (as you pointed out - "not sure what else is to be said." To be clear, I have generally agreed with your assessment of this year's team.

[valpo84]

Before I bruise the horse, we aren't the only team that has this issue. I mentioned Cunningham in my last post. A quick google found out Wright State had recruited him and offered. I'm sure it's a long story, but they have resurrected the topic this week with Cunningham's NCAA appearance for UNCA. The specific criticisms could have been cut and pasted to the post above and they had me chuckling. And, I swear I wrote the above post before googling. By the way, Brownell is doing a good job building a program down at Clemson. Although they lost yesterday, they won the first game and are starting to show some toughness that prior Clemson teams lacked, especially in the tourney.

http://raiderroundball.yuku.com/topic/2557