Joe Burton Suspended

[VULB#62]

Another question.......Was Burton ineligible based on NCAA rules or University rules?

From what I remember of the NCAA rules, as described in the VU student athlete handbook, I don't think they have a mechanism for removing you from school. Wouldn't make sense really, right? They just govern athletics - they determine which students are eligible to compete. The university rules govern who's eligible to take classes i.e. who's a student.

So, he was suspended by the university.

Best of luck to him: at another university, maybe playing ball in Europe, or, who knows, maybe back at Valpo some day.

Hmmmm, could he take a course or two this semester at a JC to compensate for the deficiency and then re-enroll in the fall?

[FieldGoodie05]

So Skara's suspension at Clemson was related to an academic matter here? I missed that. That makes 4 players in 3 years then. At what point is this systemic?

Edit: I See this is being addressed in another thread. Worth the discussion, however.

Who is the 4th player you speak of?  I know Skara, Adekoya and Burton.

[FieldGoodie05]

Maybe this has been answered. 

Paul, do we know if that scholarship is unavailable until next season?  Or do we now have a scholarship for mid-season transfers?

[VUBBFan]

I would think there is no scholarship for a mid season transfer unless they were to enroll Today. The Beginning of the semester.

[VU2014]

Paul, do we know if that scholarship is unavailable until next season?  Or do we now have a scholarship for mid-season transfers?

We no scholarships available for this semester. The now 2 available scholarships can only be use for next season. Any mid-season transfers for next semester would have to pay their own way 1 semester if they wanted to join the Valpo Team.

I don't think we'll be taking on any mid-season transfers this season. Tom Wilson almost chose Valpo (without a scholie) over Boise State (with a scholie) last year. Tom Wilson took a visit basically on January 1 and committed to BSU on Jan 8 last season. I haven't heard about anyone taking a visit. Seems doubtful.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/817938846298112000

[usc4valpo]

OKmick - far from true about ND. Their players have significantly lower academic standards than the average ND student. No player on that team would get accepted as a regular student. Even Brain Kelly has mentioned that. Same goes for USC.

[agibson]

OKmick - far from true about ND. Their players have significantly lower academic standards than the average ND student. No player on that team would get accepted as a regular student. Even Brain Kelly has mentioned that. Same goes for USC.

I took the ND case to be that they needed to recruit players who were book-smart enough to _pass ND classes_. That standards in classes were high and there wasn't any golden ticket (a la UNC) for athletes. I don't know how the level of rigor is at ND vs. Valpo as a function of department, etc. but I guess that's approximately the situation Valpo is in. Maybe it's not that different at e.g. Bradley, Drake, Butler, Evansville. (And maybe some of those are closer to Valpo than ND is; I really don't know for sure.)

I think at almost any school factors other than just GPA and test scores are a part of the admissions process. If you bring something special to the table (e.g. you're a star piccolo player and the orchestra just graduated theirs, or a running back, or a first generation college student, or a member of some other under-presented minority group, etc.) then you might be more attractive than some other more typical student with the same GPA and test scores.

I'm sure there's some minimum bar for admission. And maybe that's higher some places (Stanford? Cal? Notre Dame?) than others. But I'm sure the "usual minimum" is lower for athletes at many schools than it is for "vanilla" students. And I'm guessing the practical limit some places (including VU, perhaps) is recruiting students that will be able to make their grades, rather than some admission standard, while dealing with the rigorous schedule of a student athlete.

[agibson]

Quote from: FieldGoodie05 on Today at 12:09:01 PM
Paul, do we know if that scholarship is unavailable until next season?  Or do we now have a scholarship for mid-season transfers?

We no scholarships available for this semester. The now 2 available scholarships can only be use for next season.

Is that just the normal rule for scholarships? If you give it out in the fall, it's gone for the year? Even if the student leaves in the second week of classes, or at the semester break, etc?

[agibson]

Another question.......Was Burton ineligible based on NCAA rules or University rules?

From what I remember of the NCAA rules, as described in the VU student athlete handbook, I don't think they have a mechanism for removing you from school. Wouldn't make sense really, right? They just govern athletics - they determine which students are eligible to compete. The university rules govern who's eligible to take classes i.e. who's a student.

So, he was suspended by the university.

Best of luck to him: at another university, maybe playing ball in Europe, or, who knows, maybe back at Valpo some day.

Hmmmm, could he take a course or two this semester at a JC to compensate for the deficiency and then re-enroll in the fall?

Assuming that we're talking about a regular academic suspension from the College of Arts and Sciences (and that's the only kind of suspension I know about for a student in that college) then it really is a suspension. Normally you're out for two semesters. It's not a matter of "get your transcript back up to some minimum and you're back in immediately". It has a little bit of the flavor of something like a suspension from high school, for places that may still do those. Go home and think about your errors for a week, then come back and re-engage. Except, at VU, you actually do need to apply for readmission. And, I think the normal expectation is that sometime during that year off you _would_ take some classes at a junior college, or similar, to demonstrate that you're capable of succeeding in college-level course work. Then you can be re-admitted and start taking classes again after your suspension. A student of mine (non-athlete) is successfully returning from a suspension under that plan this semester.

Presumably that path is open to Joe. I imagine he'd have a year, maybe even three semesters, of eligibility remaining (is it normally six years to use four year of eligibility?). I don't know for sure how this works with athletic scholarships, or NCAA regulations about making progress toward degree, etc.

Maybe it wouldn't be crazy for him to play at a JC somewhere for three semesters and come back to Valpo after that. Or, I guess, he might be able to start mid-year next season, January 2019 or so, at another NCAA D1 school after sitting out a year for the transfer. Or I guess he could hypothetically be playing in Europe (former Yugoslavia? 2nd or 3rd division in a more major country?) next week.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950477634466713602
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950477959563038721
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950478260051247109
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950478666911412232

[NativeCheesehead]

FG05 - As I recall, Max was caught up in the Jubril thing as well, sat a couple games after admitting wrongdoing. If I'm wrong on that and that was another issue I apologize. With this team 12 months feels like 5 years ago.

I don't really put this on Lottich, Joe was a talent worth taking a chance on. But I think he needs to take extra care over the next year or two to avoid the academically borderline students, transfers in particular.

[usc4valpo]

OKnick - at Duke, the average student SAT is a whooping 500 points higher than any player on the basketball team. I would bet the situation is similar at Notre Dame where they recruit the 4 and 5 star athletes. Stanford is in a similar situation as ND, but their academics standards are higher. As for Cal, they are like North Carolina, Michigan or Illinois - the difference in test scores between the average student and athlete is quite significant.

[VULB#62]

FG05 - As I recall, Max was caught up in the Jubril thing as well, sat a couple games after admitting wrongdoing. If I'm wrong on that and that was another issue I apologize. With this team 12 months feels like 5 years ago.

I don't really put this on Lottich, Joe was a talent worth taking a chance on. But I think he needs to take extra care over the next year or two to avoid the academically borderline students, transfers in particular.

I don't remember Max ever sitting out a game in civies over that.  He might not have played (Coach's Decision) but was in uniform and was available.  Then again this memoy thing ....... 

Agreed with the bold statement.

[vusupporter]

Max and Jubril both sat out for the first time at Missouri State. Max was back the very next game. Guessing both were accused, they looked into it, and found no wrongdoing by Max.

[VU2014]

I don't believe Max was caught up in the Jubril thing. It was speculated he was because when Jubril was suspended or ruled ineligible we heard 2 players were involved and everyone assumed Max was the other player because he was suspended for 1 game but we later found out David Skara was the other player.

It should be emphasized these are two very different situations. Joe's suspension was purely academic performance.

It is what it is. Coaches can't do the homework and study for kids. And YES the coaches are on top of kids. The coaches get academic progress reports from professors through out the semester. Basketball players also have mandatory study hours in the library (at least they did under Bryce, I'm assuming they still do). The athletes also have free tutoring for pretty much every subject.

Let's not try and find ways to spin this on the coaching staff. They took a chance a talented and good kid who had some academic problems at his previous stop. It sounds like they started to get straightened out during his red-shirt year but they returned this semester, when he got busier with the season. It sucks that it happened but this is more of a outlier at Valpo. I don't see it as "systemic".

Let's look to the future.

[VULB#62]

If what you state is accurate, 14, then this issue is water under the bridge for me and we move on.  No more    Couldn't ask any more of our MBB program.

[agibson]

Osipoff summarizes things pretty well in a piece posted last night, and ahead of Wednesday's game
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/post-tribune/sports/ct-ptb-mens-basketball-valparaiso-joe-burton-st-0109-20180108-story.html
Second-leading scorer Joe Burton no longer at Valparaiso due to academic issues
By Michael Osipoff
Post-Tribune

It includes some quotes from teammates responding to the situation.

In the "looking forward" department it includes

Without Burton, Valparaiso has a second scholarship available for next season.

"You look at our roster, we have guys who are bigger," Lottich said. "We want to have people who can dribble, shoot and pass."

[bigmosmithfan1]

Look, without speculating on this individual situation, all I know is that many more academically prestigious schools than Valpo manage to keep all their guys eligible, even on the players who are considered "chances." So yes, given how critical Joe was seen to this year's team and that this issue was not unknown, anything short of an all-hands-on-deck effort to keep him above water academically falls at least partially on the program/university. That's just reality if we want to be competitive in this sport.

[valpotx]

In reference to our player's quotes, they need not only worry about holding each other accountable ON the court, but also OFF the court.  This is all on Joe.  I don't think that they should be playing FOR Joe at all.  He did this to himself.  If you got caught up in an academic matter, regardless of what it was, you have no one else to blame, but yourself.

[valpo64]

Enough is enough!!  He is gone! Let's move on!

[FieldGoodie05]

Max and Jubril both sat out for the first time at Missouri State. Max was back the very next game. Guessing both were accused, they looked into it, and found no wrongdoing by Max.

That's how I remember it too.  The feeling on the board was that Max was wrongfully accessed and that Adekoya admitted to it.

[agibson]

Look, without speculating on this individual situation, all I know is that many more academically prestigious schools than Valpo manage to keep all their guys eligible, even on the players who are considered "chances."

I don't consider it at all common at Valpo, or in Valpo basketball. Some other institutions, I really don't know how many, not sure if it's at the few percent level or more like the 50% level, have less than savory methods for making sure that their "most important" athletes stay eligible.

We happen to have had two incidents in two years on one prominent team. One of those seems to have been a cheating issue. The other seems to be about making grades, and maybe with some special circumstances. I don't remember any others in VU basketball... maybe not in the 20 years I've been following the team?

[VU2014]

I stand corrected. We can replace Joe with a mid-season transfer. Credit Paul for looking up the new rule. My apologies.
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950805765522120704
https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950806425672011781

[VULB#62]

Hasn't the semester started?  Have we had dialogues with such possible players?  They don't grow on trees.

[VU2014]

Hasn't the semester started?  Have we had dialogues with such possible players?  They don't grow on trees.

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/950810504003510273