Joe Burton Suspended

[valpotx]

Yes, it was a 4.0 when I was in school, so 1.8 is essentially a high C-.

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/943714637010391041

[usc4valpo]

Valpotx -  I have never heard of a grade of "high C-"

Under Tom Smith, there were several players not meeting academic requirements that had no reason attending Valpo.

[NativeCheesehead]

With some here implying that academics were an issue for Joe at OSU, I think part of whatever the outcome of this ends up being falls on the coaching staff. I have had a few conversations with Joe at team functions over the last couple of seasons and one thing is clear: Joe's no dummy. And I trust our coaching staff was smart enough to figure that out having much more time with him before he transferred.

So Lottich took a risk, and barring a turnaround, it's going to be a bust. That being said, Joe's a talent worth taking a risk on, and I'm certainly not opposed to trying again in the future. But while the bulk of the blame is, rightfully so, on Joe, the staff had to know this was a possibility all along.

[vu72]

I would think that Joe is done at Valpo.  It apparently is grades and how could he improve his average without completing another semester?  He was a red shirt junior which makes him what? 22?  He is headed overseas or possibly to a JC just to get some playing time.

The danger we face when going after better players is that in high school they may have had a pass and then arrive at Valpo totally unprepared to get through the academic rigors.  Do we even have an African Studies program?

[agibson]

Valpotx -  I have never heard of a grade of "high C-"

On VU's 4.0 scale a C- gets you 1.7. So, a 1.8 average would be a "high C-" eg a C for every two C-'s.

That said, about five years ago the College of Arts and Sciences GPA requirement tightened as you advanced at VU. For a freshman a 1.8 might have been sufficient. These days I think it's a little more uniform. Being below a 2.0 gets you put on academic probation (i.e. a warning) and then another semester below 2.0 (or eg failing any courses while on probation) gets you suspended for a year.

Again, the NCAA rules are a bit different.

Appropriately, student athletes have to meet both. They need to meet VU's to remain students in good standing, and the NCAA's to be eligible for intercollegiate competition.

[NativeCheesehead]

NCAA Academic "Requirements" - lol (See Carolina, North)

[valpopal]

Haven't seen this mentioned, and I thought it would serve as a reminder here of the Valparaiso focus on the individual as a student-athlete.



Hamlet Named Enterprise Bank MVC Scholar-Athlete of the Week

Valparaiso University women's basketball junior Meredith Hamlet (McBain, Mich. / McBain) has been named the Missouri Valley Conference Female Scholar Athlete of the Week, presented by Enterprise Bank and Trust Company.


To qualify for the honor, a student-athlete must carry a cumulative grade point average of 3.20 and be at least a sophomore in academic standing. The Valley honors one male and female athlete each week, taking into account their academic qualifications and athletic performance.


Hamlet had 23 points before halftime in Friday's win over IU Northwest and finished the night 8-of-10 shooting, 5-of-6 from beyond the arc and 8-of-8 at the free-throw line for 29 points, matching a career high and reaching that total for the third straight season. Since the start of the 2015-16 season, there have been 11 occasions where a Valpo player has hit 5 or more 3-pointers in a game, and Hamlet has accounted for seven of those...Hamlet also thrives in the classroom, where she owns a 3.48 grade point average in public relations.

[covufan]

Student Burton is at a crossroads.  I hope for his own sake that he is getting good counseling, outside of the team, athletic department and University.  He needs to determine what his true values and long term goals are, with respect to getting a college degree.  It will be a long, tough road.  A road with many long term benefits - the knowledge of setting goals and accomplishing them;  facing and overcoming adversity; getting that degree and all the benefits that come with a Valpo degree.  Reach out to Lexus, who stayed to get his degree.  Words from someone like that could go a long way.  All of the other former players, recent or otherwise, especially those that pgmado has had the opportunity to interview recently - they could provide some feedback to what getting that degree means to them.  How much hard work they had to dig deep to learn about themselves.

Student Burton has some decisions ahead of him.  I hope he takes the proper time to reflect and choose wisely. 

[agibson]

Asking the question, because I genuinely don't know the answer: does VU still require a higher-than-the-NCAA-minimum GPA to participate? (I ask becuase they used to at one time - I know it was a constant frustration back during the Tom Smith era. On several occasions, guys would be suspended for grades only to find out it was VU's GPA requirements, not the NCAA's, that were the issue).

Also out of my own curiosity, I took a closer look at this question.

Student athletes are required to satisfy potentially several different standards. The Student Athlete Handbook has standards which I think likely come from the NCAA. Their college (Arts and Sciences, Engineering, Nursing, etc.) has their own set of requirements, which vary a bit by college. I'm most familiar with Arts and Sciences, and my comments here will be based on those requirements. Potentially a major or minor program could have additional requirements, even within A&S.

I don't see any particular reason why the university/college requirements should line up with the NCAA requirements. It would seem a little strange for Valpo to adopt the NCAA standards for all students, and you can imagine there might even be reasons to hold athletes to somewhat different standards than a general student population. Student athletes are both students and athletes, so they're of course held to both/all standards.

These days, in Arts and Sciences, it's mostly your cumulative GPA that gets you on probation and then suspended. If you're ever below a 2.0 GPA you're put on probation. The usual terms of probation involve completing 12 credits in a semester with no F's, U's, or incompletes and at least a semester GPA of 2.0 (your cumulative GPA could potentially remain below a 2.0 and you'd likely them remain on probation for another semester). Violate the terms of your probation and you're suspended for a year. There is an appeal process for suspensions.

This means, for example, that you could have a very bad semester e.g. in your junior year and not even be placed on probation by the College of Arts and Sciences.

The athletic rules don't seem to have the idea of a probation. You're either eligible or you're not. They generally require a certain number of credits to have been completed in the past semester, and in the past two semesters or calendar year, and to have completed a certain fraction of the credits toward your degree. "Progress Towards Degree" seems to be the theme. For example, to be eligible your second semester you have to have completed 6 credits your first semester. To be eligible in your third semester you have to have completed 6 hours in the second semester, 18 hours between the first and second, and 24 prior to the third (presumably that allows a summer or two). And you need to have a cumulative GPA of of 90% the required minimum (minimum required to graduate, I guess). That 90% rises to 95% and 100% as you get older. There are other milestones like declaring a major and finishing 40% of your credits before being eligible in your 5th semester.

So, there are circumstances (e.g. cumulative GPA of less than 2.0 after two or three semesters, etc.) where the College of Arts and Sciences would put you on probation and then suspend you but you might still be eligible per the Athletic rules. But, of course, you couldn't play because you couldn't register for classes.

And, there are other circumstances (e.g. where you have one really awful semester, and pass only 5 credit hours, but your overall GPA is fine because of good grades when you were younger) where you'd be in good standing (but hopefully in contact with your adviser and aware of your perilous situation) with the College of Arts and Sciences but would be ineligible per Athletic (NCAA?) rules.

We could of course debate the exact standards, and _maybe_ whether there ought to somehow be one universal set of standards. But, everything above seems sort of OK to me.

I'm not the most expert on these matters, but have had some inolvement. Happy to entertain questions.

Of course, none of this necessarily has anything to do with any particular student's situation e.g. I don't know why Burton was suspended and couldn't/wouldn't tell you if I did. Except that all students athletes (i.e. those in the College of Arts and Sciences, for what I outlined above) are held to these kinds of standards.

[valpolaw]

Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.

[valpospartan]

Normally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible.  VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards.
Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?

[agibson]

Normally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible.  VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards.
Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?

The phrase "academically ineligible" does sound familiar. I don't know if/how that phrase is used at VU. It might plausibly be used for someone who hasn't met the VU Athletic (aka NCAA?) requirements.

The College of Arts and Sciences definitely calls their device a "suspension". I don't know if the VU announcement was using that roughly as a technical term, or just happened to used that word. Obviously the College of Arts and Sciences doesn't suspend anyone "from the the Valpo men's basketball program" which is what the announcement actually said.

Hard to say, maybe case-by-case, whether violating the A&S criteria or the Athletic criteria is more serious. The A&S at least has an appeal process. But, if you're suspended by them, it's normally for a year. The Athletic version may perhaps be missing the appeal - I'm not sure. But probably can be for as little as a semester (or maybe there's even a chance of e.g. clearing up an Incomplete and becoming eligible before another semester passes).

[valpotx]

Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.

Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth?  I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching.  He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.

[vu72]

Joe Burton's listed major is "Communication" which presumably lies within the Arts and Sciences realm.

[ValpoHoops]

Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.

Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth?  I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching.  He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.

Brian Bowen is the player who reportedly (or his father, anyways) was the one the money was being funneled to from Louisville. He played his prep ball at LaLumiere.

[VU2014]

Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.

Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth?  I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching.  He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.

Brian Bowen is the player who reportedly (or his father, anyways) was the one the money was being funneled to from Louisville. He played his prep ball at La Lumiere.

It's hard to believe La Lumiere is a school from NWI. They pump out big time basketball talent but nobody ever talks about them from the region, at least from my experience. Has Valpo ever recruited a player from there? Loyola got a huge get in Franklin Agunanne who is going to be a La Lumiere graduated next season and he's ranked as 4-star PF by ESPN.

[zvillehaze]

Maybe we should take a shot on Brian Bowen at this point.

Do you mean Matt Bowen at Minnesota Duluth?  I actually Googled him a few weeks ago to see where he was coaching.  He stayed at Bemidji State for several seasons, before leaving for Minnesota-Duluth about 5-6 seasons ago.

Brian Bowen is the player who reportedly (or his father, anyways) was the one the money was being funneled to from Louisville. He played his prep ball at La Lumiere.

It's hard to believe La Lumiere is a school from NWI. They pump out big time basketball talent but nobody ever talks about them from the region, at least from my experience. Has Valpo ever recruited a player from there? Loyola got a huge get in Franklin Agunanne who is going to be a La Lumiere graduated next season and he's ranked as 4-star PF by ESPN.

La Lumiere probably doesn't get much attention because they aren't a IHSAA member school.  They do play some local schools, but also travel around the country playing tournaments.  Quite a change from 35 or so years ago when they were fairly mediocre in all sports.

Back on topic, on the last episode of USH, Paul Oren didn't seem very optimistic about Burton returning to the team this season.  At least that was my interpretation ... did anyone else get the same feeling?

[wh]

It's hard to believe La Lumiere is a school from NWI. They pump out big time basketball talent but nobody ever talks about them from the region, at least from my experience. Has Valpo ever recruited a player from there?

De'Andre Haskins

[agibson]

Joe Burton's listed major is "Communication" which presumably lies within the Arts and Sciences realm.

Yeah, sorry Communication is definitely A and S, so the rules I outlined should be the appropriate ones for a student like Joe.

It could/would vary for eg engineering or nursing or business students. (Sometimes students who don't meet the engineering or business requirements end up defaulting to an A and S major; I get the sense that engineering is usually somewhat stricter, I'm less sure about the others).

[VU2014]

Back on topic, on the last episode of USH, Paul Oren didn't seem very optimistic about Burton returning to the team this season.  At least that was my interpretation ... did anyone else get the same feeling?

I definitely got the same feeling. Paul even mentioned that he didn't know if Joe would return to Valparaiso. But nobody is talking because of the FERPA law. I hope Joe stays in school and just works his tail off to get his grades up even if he can't play this season.

[covufan]

Normally when an athlete doesn't make grades, it is announced that they are said to be academically ineligible.  VU announced that JB was suspended for failing to meet academic standards.
Are these two things the same, or is 'suspended' not quite a serious as 'ineligible'?

Was thinking the same thing.  Is it possible he meets NCAA standards (academically eligible), but doesn't meet VU standards, and thus suspended?

I hope there is something he can do like contact professors and challenge grades, resubmit prior work, extra credit that might bring one or two classes up from 1.7 to 2.0.

[vu72]

I hope there is something he can do like contact professors and challenge grades, resubmit prior work, extra credit that might bring one or two classes up from 1.7 to 2.0.

I think we all are whistling in the dark. I would think that once grades are posted they are posted, unless, something was overlooked or an online grade was posted incorrectly.  Those things didn't happen. Can't imagine how he would be able to gain eligibility before the end of the next semester.

Now, if he has met NCAA grade requirements but not Valpo requirements then perhaps he could trasfer and play.  That would have to be at a non-D1 school.  Perhaps D3 or NAIA.  Maybe Texas Lutheran could find a spot on their team!

[valpotx]

Uh oh, maybe Paul knows something that no one else could, because he teaches Communications classes.  Even more so, maybe Paul is the one that gave him the bad grades.  Ergo, down with Paul Oren! lol jk

[vu84v2]

A few additional comments (while trying to avoid being redundant)

-Grade and progress criteria for remaining in good academic standing can come from the university, the specific college, and the specific department. Some departments' standards (I do not know about communications) are driven by the accrediting body for that field. Thus (for example), accounting standards would be higher than standards for the business school, which are probably higher than standards for the university. The most strict requirement will always be the one that applies to the student.
-In last night's Kansas-Stanford game, a player for Stanford was playing in his first game after coming off academic ineligibility in the first semester. The announcers said that he had gotten a C in an advanced Calculus course and that placed him below Stanford requirements (thus making him ineligible). While Stanford may well be the extreme case, universities setting higher standards than the NCAA is not uncommon.
-A professor will not allow a student to revise prior work or submit extra credit after the grades were completed. If they did, the university would reject the grade change and the professor would be in a lot of trouble.
-As far as Burton,  I hope that he decides to stay and focuses on getting his grades up. Someone said this is time for him to step up as a student, and I fully agree. That would show a great deal of character.