At Bradley Jan 3 7:00 PM CST Wardle we do now?

[JD24]

This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.

That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.

It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.

The guys on the roster currently would be role players on a good Valpo team....and in some cases that would be qualified with an "at best".  What I meant by Peters covering up a lot of talent issue was that he was so good that the program was ultra competitive. Players such as Vashil, Hamminck et al were also good players who'd have the current group more competitive. My main point was that this team, as currently constructed, isn't all that talented. Whether it is a development issue is anyone's guess (mine is that it isn't to any great degree). Whether current ineligbles or signees would help is a question for next year. That's there for everyone to feel better about the future I guess.

The current roster doesn't have a whole lot of talent on it.

[Just Sayin]

Fine, but even if you didn't imply it, it's still a stupid argument to anyone that understands context. You can throw out all the debate jargon you want but as long as your argument and your buzzwords ignore the context of the argument  and that is Valpo's 19 year old freshmen vs Kentucky's and what those respective schools are able to attract and provide then they hold absolutely no power in a real world argument which cannot be separated from its context.

Context has nothing to do with my argument. You have not shown that my argument is fallacious. You keep moving the goal posts and claiming that I said or implied things that I never said or implied. To continue further comment would be stupid. My last post on this. Slay away.

[VUGrad1314]

Also the idea that talent and finances should be ignored as relevant  factors when discussing college basketball  particularly when specific programs are being mentioned and compared is absolutely ludicrous. That you ignore context is utterly delusional. It's the strongest support your  foolish argument has. The idea that Kentucky's success has anything to do with Valpo or is any reflection on Lottich is asinine. Criticize Lottich for his own failures all you want but not for failing to bring us to Kentucky's level. Which whether you implied it or not is what you did by bringing them up in the first place. I can't post on this topic anymore either. It's just not worth it. No use trying to argue with someone who refuses to understand.

[FieldGoodie05]

This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.

That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.

It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.

The guys on the roster currently would be role players on a good Valpo team....and in some cases that would be qualified with an "at best".  What I meant by Peters covering up a lot of talent issue was that he was so good that the program was ultra competitive. Players such as Vashil, Hamminck et al were also good players who'd have the current group more competitive. My main point was that this team, as currently constructed, isn't all that talented. Whether it is a development issue is anyone's guess (mine is that it isn't to any great degree). Whether current ineligbles or signees would help is a question for next year. That's there for everyone to feel better about the future I guess.

The current roster doesn't have a whole lot of talent on it.

Peters freshmen year we still had (4) seniors: Capobianco, Jordan Coleman, Lavonte Dority and Mousa Gueye.

I respectfully disagree, what we are seeing is an All-Star game mentality.  Solid talent with no cohesion to date.

[valpospartan]

Criticize the slow starts the offensive struggles the weakness both physical and mental of our 7 footers the lack of cohesiveness etc. all you want but don't use the "Fab 5" (which Michigan cheated to get anyway ) or Calipari's recruits as if that's attainable for Valpo. A bunch of McDonald's All-American five star recruits playing at aP5 school with a $10million+ budget  is going to look quite a bit different especially as freshmen than a bunch of 2-4 star kids at a mid major with a budget around $3million. I hope your mention of them was sarcastic.

And let the record show that the team known as the fab five did not win a single championship.  Just sayin.

[JD24]

This team is not very talented. This has been an issue hidden by Alec Peters over the last few years but is frighteningly obvious this season.

That's a good point. As good as Tevonn is, maybe he's better as a No. 2 or 3 option on a team. He's not a No. 1.

It wasn't just Alec. We graduated 2 other pros that are playing in high level euro leagues, that were very talented players. Then Vashil the year before. I'd agree that Tevonn probably isn't an ideal #1 on a team, he's ideally a great #3 on borderline at-large mid-major teams. How spoiled were we that he was the #3 and #4 option at times the last few previous seasons. I think this 2017-2018 definitely has talent but its very raw and not developed yet (they are mostly FR/SO) other then Tevonn. Max is extremely important to this team but he is ideally a great glue-guy/role player and he's been thrust into a key player this season. Max has stepped up this year though and I've been very pleased with how he's stepped up for us on and off the court. I'm really excited about Mileek and Linssen's futures. Those two could develop into really nice players. Bakari is another guy who can develop into a really dynamic distributor. There is no denying Joe was talented and was starting hit his stride a little before the suspension, but who knows what his future holds right now. I'm just not sure if we have a future Alec Peters or Ryan Broekhoff on this active roster but I don't buy that this roster doesn't have talent its just not developed yet. There is definitely lots of future potential here but it probably won't come to fruition this season. Plus all these parts have little amount of D1 minutes under their belts.

The guys on the roster currently would be role players on a good Valpo team....and in some cases that would be qualified with an "at best".  What I meant by Peters covering up a lot of talent issue was that he was so good that the program was ultra competitive. Players such as Vashil, Hamminck et al were also good players who'd have the current group more competitive. My main point was that this team, as currently constructed, isn't all that talented. Whether it is a development issue is anyone's guess (mine is that it isn't to any great degree). Whether current ineligbles or signees would help is a question for next year. That's there for everyone to feel better about the future I guess. The current roster doesn't have a whole lot of talent on it.

Peters freshmen year we still had (4) seniors: Capobianco, Jordan Coleman, Lavonte Dority and Mousa Gueye. I respectfully disagree, what we are seeing is an All-Star game mentality.  Solid talent with no cohesion to date.

Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.

[oklahomamick]

Several have been disappointed with the grit of our 7 footers and lack of rebounding.  Rightfully so.

However many 7 footers are not good at rebounding.  My opinion is that our 7 footers need to box out and let the more athletic guys go after the ball off the rim. 

The problem is that our 7 footers opposing man is getting the rebound. 

[VU2014]

Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.

Totally disagree, particularly with the 2015-16 team. That team had a great supporting cast around Peters.

Those teams weren't just Alec Peters. Such a lazy hot take. AP was obviously a huge piece of those team but a) it totally discounts how good the supporting casts were and b) it also discounts how weak the Horizon League is/was.

Keith Carter, Vashil Fernandez, Shane Hammink, Jubril, Darian Walker, David Skara, Lexus Williams, E. Victor Nickerson. Were mostly veteran players that could be players on any competitive MVC team this season. 

[valpopal]

Several have been disappointed with the grit of our 7 footers and lack of rebounding.  Rightfully so.

However many 7 footers are not good at rebounding.  My opinion is that our 7 footers need to box out and let the more athletic guys go after the ball off the rim. 

The problem is that our 7 footers opposing man is getting the rebound.

A shorter Alec Peters averaged 10 rebounds in his senior year, and in his junior year he averaged 9, even though Vashil was averaging 8 per game that year. Smits and Sorolla are both averaging less than 4 this year, and Valpo has not played the toughest competition. Our big men should have learned from playing with Alec, and I would think they should be studying films of Alec on a regular basis. It is a matter of blocking out, being smart about anticipating the rebound, and being aggressive to the ball. They seem passive and intimidated by the possibility of being called for fouls, but they are getting in foul trouble anyway. Perhaps they will not be able to achieve the numbers Peters exhibited with his talent and heart, but they should be able to approach Vashil's 8 per game, and remember that Vashil had a problem with getting in foul trouble as well.

[vu72]

I watched the Oakland/Northern Kentucky game last night (NKU won at Oakland).  Without Joe, those teams would kill us.  With Joe we would still lose.  Watching Oakland is like watching AAU.  Watching NKU is to watch a very well coached team.  They would be a very good addition to the Valley.

[VU2014]

They (NKU) would be a very good addition to the Valley.

It would slightly "irk" me to see them get a Valley invite after not having to "earn it". Valpo really had to earn it's reputation over the course of decades as a strong mid-major program. NKU literally just jump from D2. Yes they've been strong the last 2 seasons but let's be honest they had a cake walk to the NCAA tourney because all they they didn't have to play any of the top seeds in MCM. They also barely beat a injured and depleted VU team on their own home court last season. I'll admit they are good this season though. I'm not sure they're head coach will be sticking around for long. His name was popping up for bigger jobs last season (he signed an extension but that means nothing).

I'd prefer Belmont and Murray State.

[a3uge]

I watched the Oakland/Northern Kentucky game last night (NKU won at Oakland).  Without Joe, those teams would kill us.  With Joe we would still lose.  Watching Oakland is like watching AAU.  Watching NKU is to watch a very well coached team.  They would be a very good addition to the Valley.

And theoretical Oakland would beat a theoretical YSU in the 2017 Horizon League tournament.

[FieldGoodie05]

Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.

Totally disagree, particularly with the 2015-16 team. That team had a great supporting cast around Peters.

Those teams weren't just Alec Peters. Such a lazy hot take. AP was obviously a huge piece of those team but a) it totally discounts how good the supporting casts were and b) it also discounts how weak the Horizon League is/was.

Keith Carter, Vashil Fernandez, Shane Hammink, Jubril, Darian Walker, David Skara, Lexus Williams, E. Victor Nickerson. Were mostly veteran players that could be players on any competitive MVC team this season.

Feels like he's just trying to get our panties in a twist.  If not, I've finally found a Valpo "fan" more pessimistic than myself!!!

[JD24]

Remove Peters from the team his jr and sr seasons and the team is a middle of the pack Horizon League team. The current team is that team less some players such as Vashil and Hamminck....or....not real talented overall. That's what Peters did for the program. Currently, the talent level will produce poor MVC results. A more developed current roster will produce mediocre MVC results. That doesn't represent a particularly talented roster in my view.

Totally disagree, particularly with the 2015-16 team. That team had a great supporting cast around Peters. Those teams weren't just Alec Peters. Such a lazy hot take. AP was obviously a huge piece of those team but a) it totally discounts how good the supporting casts were and b) it also discounts how weak the Horizon League is/was. Keith Carter, Vashil Fernandez, Shane Hammink, Jubril, Darian Walker, David Skara, Lexus Williams, E. Victor Nickerson. Were mostly veteran players that could be players on any competitive MVC team this season.

It's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses.  The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.

[VU2014]

It's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses.  The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.

You are essentially saying Valpo was a one man band. That simply isn't true. If you did a little research you would find that Valpo received a perfect APR score last year. Jubril was actually a good student who made an idiotic mistake and was egregiously over punished for that mistake. With Joe they took a risk on a kid who had academic issues at his previous school and it didn't work out here. It is what it is but it's not an epidemic with VU by any means.

[JD24]

It's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses.  The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.

You are essentially saying Valpo was a one man band. That simply isn't true. If you did a little research you would find that Valpo received a perfect APR score last year. Jubril was actually a good student who made an idiotic mistake and was egregiously over punished for that mistake. With Joe they took a risk on a kid who had academic issues at his previous school and it didn't work out here. It is what it is but it's not an epidemic with VU by any means.

You're interpreting what I said to mean something I'm not. What I'm saying is that an elite player for his league such as Alec Peters can cover for a lot of weaknesses. Had Peters not been around and Valpo finishes 4th or 5th in the Horizon League, I think everyone has a completely different view of the program. That doesn't mean the team was completely devoid of talent as it is closer to this season but without him, the team wasn't all that great.

In terms of the academic issues, all of them can always be explained away. I know all about Jubril which, quite frankly, made the move even stupider than it would be for a player who'd been struggling. He was on a national council for education in sports for chrissakes.

This is two years in a row there's been an issue. I'd hope this would be recognized by those who should.

[FieldGoodie05]

It's not a lazy take. It's the truth. Those teams would have been better than the current team for sure but having the very high end player hid a lot of weaknesses.  The loss of Alec has exposed the program. Why this has occurred I'm not sure but it is a trend, along with the academic issues, which needs to end.

You are essentially saying Valpo was a one man band. That simply isn't true. If you did a little research you would find that Valpo received a perfect APR score last year. Jubril was actually a good student who made an idiotic mistake and was egregiously over punished for that mistake. With Joe they took a risk on a kid who had academic issues at his previous school and it didn't work out here. It is what it is but it's not an epidemic with VU by any means.

You're interpreting what I said to mean something I'm not. What I'm saying is that an elite player for his league such as Alec Peters can cover for a lot of weaknesses. Had Peters not been around and Valpo finishes 4th or 5th in the Horizon League, I think everyone has a completely different view of the program. That doesn't mean the team was completely devoid of talent as it is closer to this season but without him, the team wasn't all that great.

In terms of the academic issues, all of them can always be explained away. I know all about Jubril which, quite frankly, made the move even stupider than it would be for a player who'd been struggling. He was on a national council for education in sports for chrissakes.

This is two years in a row there's been an issue. I'd hope this would be recognized by those who should.

Think we should probably retire this topic?

[VU2014]

Think we should probably retire this topic?

Yes

[VULB#62]

Actually no. It should be an independent string. I too have some questions about how these two kids have been (1) briefed (AKA orientation/indoctrination/expectations), and  (2) supervised/monitored/advised by the MBB program

The fact that Joe had academic difficulties at another institution should have been a red flag to the staff to stay on his butt from the time he enrolled and to ensure that periodic progress reports were constantly processed through the MBB office.

I think it might have been assumed (incorrectly) that Valpo students know what to do to academically excel. Sorry, some kids ( and they are kids), and especially most athletes, might have other priorities. As a D-I, we recruit top flight AAU players and there is a risk to that. As an academically intense institution, to compensate we need to be more vigilant, proactive, and, yes, more supervisory in our approach.

[FieldGoodie05]

Actually no. It should be an independent string. I too have some questions about how these two kids have been (1) briefed (AKA orientation/indoctrination/expectations), and  (2) supervised/monitored/advised by the MBB program

The fact that Joe had academic difficulties at another institution should have been a red flag to the staff to stay on his butt from the time he enrolled and to ensure that periodic progress reports were constantly processed through the MBB office.

I think it might have been assumed (incorrectly) that Valpo students know what to do to academically excel. Sorry, some kids ( and they are kids), and especially most athletes, might have other priorities. As a D-I, we recruit top flight AAU players and there is a risk to that. As an academically intense institution, to compensate we need to be more vigilant, proactive, and, yes, more supervisory in our approach.

Write your congressman. 

Gave a kid a shot that had a lot of upside.  If this exact scenario happens 2-3 more times, then we can talk.

Jubril / Skara was as different as academics can get.

[FieldGoodie05]

Actually no. It should be an independent string. I too have some questions about how these two kids have been (1) briefed (AKA orientation/indoctrination/expectations), and  (2) supervised/monitored/advised by the MBB program

The fact that Joe had academic difficulties at another institution should have been a red flag to the staff to stay on his butt from the time he enrolled and to ensure that periodic progress reports were constantly processed through the MBB office.

I think it might have been assumed (incorrectly) that Valpo students know what to do to academically excel. Sorry, some kids ( and they are kids), and especially most athletes, might have other priorities. As a D-I, we recruit top flight AAU players and there is a risk to that. As an academically intense institution, to compensate we need to be more vigilant, proactive, and, yes, more supervisory in our approach.

Write your congressman. 

Gave a kid a shot that had a lot of upside.  If this exact scenario happens 2-3 more times, then we can talk.

Jubril / Skara was as different as academics can get.

And another point, it's obvious that Jubril/Skara happened during Drew's tenure.  So.....

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink (be intelligent).

[wh]

Sometimes, it's easy to forget that college is very difficult for most people, as evidenced by the fact that only 3 in 10 adults in the U.S. have a 4-year degree. Having a strong support system is great, but academic success requires more than studying, writing papers and turning in assignments. More than memorization and rote, a lot of courses require high-level critical thinking skills to understand concepts, apply principles, and pass exams. Multiply that times 4 or 5 for full-time students and it becomes that much harder. For athletes add in time for practice, games and travel, and it becomes harder yet.

I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone. I'm just making the point that when a student athlete falls through the cracks, it's not always about lack of effort by the individual or a systemic failure by the athletic department.

[VULB#62]

I agree with you to a large extent, WH, that sometimes kids will fall through a crack.  However, when we recruit and admit a student athlete who might be vulnerable to having a difficult time academically and also expect that athlete to put in the time (practice and travel) necessary to meet the rigors of D-I basketball, we are operating at risk. To mitigate that risk, we need to limit the number and width of those cracks for both the kid as well as the program.  He/she should have a very strong support network built around him/her.  Either do that or don't take that risk at all -- for both the kid's sake as well as the program's.

None of us knows the full Burton story and, like many, I am merely speculating. He, obviously, managed to maintain academic elegibility his entire redshirt year.  What changed? The added travel time away from class once he was active on the roster?  Tougher classes as he moved into higher level courses? Doing well in class up to finals and then failing one or more at the very end? My point, and I don't need the help of my congressman on this, is that when an institution commits to D-I athletics, it commits to an intense world that places considerable demands on players and that includes dealing with academics in a stressful, time constrained environment that many other students never experience.  Most solid programs institute an academic support program to ensure that players get the individual help they need in order to succeeed in the classroom and, therefore, athletically elegible. And waiting for academic issues to happen twice or three more times before you recognize it as a possible issue is irresponsible.  As of today, though different in nature, Valpo has had two academic-related issues raised in two consecutive seasons. Both have hurt the MBB program significantly. Examine it.  Evaluate it.  Determine if there is something that is permitting this to occur.  If not, move on with business as usual.  But if there are things that can be implemented that improve things, do them.

[Valpo89]

Maybe Burton just didn't show up to class, and/or actually try.

[VULB#62]

IMO, if that was the case, the burden is not only on him, but also the MBB staff for not knowing.