National Conference Realignments

[vu72]

It does seem to make the move to the Valley or A-10 not unusual in today's college conference affiliation world.  Can't imagine more traveling then in the old Mid-Con world going to Southern Utah, Centenary and Central Connecticut!!

[bbtds]

Missouri Valley Conference mapping


https://www.google.com/maps/dir/University+of+Northern+Iowa/Drake+University/Wichita+State+University/Missouri+State+University/Bradley+University/Illinois+State+University/Southern+Illinois+University/University+of+Evansville+(UE)/Indiana+State+University/Loyola+University,+West+Sheridan+Road,+Chicago,+IL/@39.7625865,-96.8090487,6z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m62!4m61!1m5!1m1!1s0x87e5531ad005042d:0x75e1c3b96c004522!2m2!1d-92.4630394!2d42.5137704!1m5!1m1!1s0x87ee9949d63f6997:0x3b6a480f6e2df40!2m2!1d-93.6580638!2d41.6012863!1m5!1m1!1s0x87bae2e99bd78049:0x1e6f7029f6ab64fb!2m2!1d-97.2861564!2d37.7214716!1m5!1m1!1s0x87cf631bf3177e1b:0x4328fcf1d2c8acec!2m2!1d-93.2808408!2d37.2009403!1m5!1m1!1s0x880a5947add91f81:0xf6351a199233588f!2m2!1d-89.6160181!2d40.6981432!1m5!1m1!1s0x880b71719478bc73:0x10e5c15e5fb62c34!2m2!1d-88.9946702!2d40.5122833!1m5!1m1!1s0x8877123ce908fc03:0x9698c489b70030d3!2m2!1d-89.2185528!2d37.7131972!1m5!1m1!1s0x886e2aa240d1328f:0x36ed705f7e9003ec!2m2!1d-87.5316879!2d37.9715703!1m5!1m1!1s0x886d653a0d36ac43:0xf30442f9c7f79f78!2m2!1d-87.4103914!2d39.4705285!1m5!1m1!1s0x880fd1a09722a82b:0xbae2050b72dffcd7!2m2!1d-87.6577702!2d41.9986698!3e0

[valpo64]

With all of our attention directed to the MVC situation, has anyone heard any scuttle on the HL if we leave/or does anyone even care?

[bbtds]

With all of our attention directed to the MVC situation, has anyone heard any scuttle on the HL if we leave/or does anyone even care?

Don't care much about Wright State, Green Bay, Cleveland State, Milwaukee and UIC. They made their bed in 1993 and now they must lie in it. Detroit Mercy should look for a better situation in a conference with a more balanced private/public split. I'm not sure there is a conference that fits them well. UDM needs to work on finances and keeping their house in order such as area code graffiti and people like the former coaches, ADs and their sons in the NBA. I wish Northern KY the best. They seem poised for the most success but they fit better with the 5 dubious conference jumpers. Oh. Youngstown State was in the conference. They should really start to pay attention to sports other than football.

[oklahomamick]

Add UNO, Denver, and/or NM State and Wright State is as good as gone.
WSU is Broke (one time $120 mill reserve down to zero and about to fire 100+ staff/faculty) and my guess is the extra travel costs could result in WSU having the best athletic facilities in DII.

Read more: http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/1015/team-hl-backfill?page=4#ixzz4ggdwUOqp

[talksalot]

Here's the WSU article...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/wright-state-could-start-laying-off-employees-around-may/10kXWpTCVeNLMsU3nhsxfK/

and the deeper dive:

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/wsu-budgets-portrayed-finances-strong-while-school-lost-millions/QsiYcx4ZrMPXsUY227rHCK/

[covufan]

WSU is Broke (one time $120 mill reserve down to zero and about to fire 100+ staff/faculty) and my guess is the extra travel costs could result in WSU having the best athletic facilities in DII.

Read more: http://horizonleaguefans.freeforums.net/thread/1015/team-hl-backfill?page=4#ixzz4ggdwUOqp

Here's the WSU article...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/wright-state-could-start-laying-off-employees-around-may/10kXWpTCVeNLMsU3nhsxfK/

and the deeper dive:

http://www.mydaytondailynews.com/news/wsu-budgets-portrayed-finances-strong-while-school-lost-millions/QsiYcx4ZrMPXsUY227rHCK/

I wonder how transparent WSU was during their recent Presidential search.  Cheryl has quite the challenge ahead!

[oklahomamick]

If I was Detroit Mercy I would try for the MAAC.

[bbtds]

So because there is something really wrong in Dayton you don't want to be Wright State.

There is definitely a lesson to be learned about wrong and Wright in Ohio's educational future.

[blackpantheruwm]

If I was Detroit Mercy I would try for the MAAC.

What's funny about this is there's Iona fans on Twitter talking up moving to the Horizon League.

Maybe the grass isn't greener?

[vu72]

Elimination of the golf team???    That's like saying Holiday Inn is going to not supply facial soap to its guests as a means of balancing the budget. 

[valpo64]

Has there been any article or report on the HL site regarding us leaving the HL?

[VULB#62]

Only this on the HL Twitter site.  The website doesn't seem to have a mention.

[tweet]867758260736200710[/tweet]

[valpo64]

With us being the top basketball program in the HL, one would think us leaving would generate at least a mention on their web site.  I guess that one should remember who is running the League.   Glad our time is over with the HL.  Lacrone's ineptness continues to amaze me. With him at the helm, I sure cannot see a bright future for the HL.

[VULB#62]

64, would you publicize your fouth failure in a row (failure to retain Butler, Loyola and Valpo while moving the HL tournament to Detroit and then sending less than the HL best to the dance) on your website?

[VUGrad1314]

Not sure I would characterize the graduation of teams to better leagues as failures per se, LeCrone's biggest failures occurred prior to and in the immediate aftermath of Butler leaving. His inability to lure more quality programs beyond simply adding Oakland started the league's slide. Immediately after Butler broke out he should have pitched expansion to the likes of Belmont Murray State the Dakotas Oakland  or even Morehead State who was also strong back then and could have capitalized on that momentum by joining a better league Had he done this the Horizon League may have ended up better than the MVC. Had he been proactive he may not have stopped Butler's exit but he very well could have prevented Loyola's and Valpo's and sent the MVC scrambling once Creighton and Wichita State bolted.

LeCrone's second great failure was harming Valpo, his bellwether program, with the neutral site tournament; and, more egregious than that, forcing them to play two conference games  games THAT DIDN'T COUNT TOWARD VALPO'S RPI. This, more than anything, cost the Crusaders that at-large berth.Yes, Northern Kentucky has proven to be a good addition to the league as has Oakland but the timing of the Northern Kentucky addition could not have been worse for Valpo, and indeed the league's profile as a whole.

It's not that he doesn't know a quality program when he sees one or what to look for when adding a program. What's always been the issue with LeCrone, and what's likely to be the death of the Horizon League as a quality mid major league is one word --timing. He mistimed his move to capitalize on Butler's success, he mistimed his desire to get aggressive and serious about expansion and "being like the big boys" and he's even mistimed the aftermath of Valpo's departure by showing us all that, despite all his bluff bluster and big talk, he had no plan and probably never did. Now, he's stuck with a declining league and the lifelong lament of what could have been. He may yet make his great power move, the league may even recover somewhat, but I bet it'll still be a league from which teams will run if the MVC ever comes calling again it will never be what it could have been; nor will it be, in all likelihood, as good as it once was, and the greatest tragedy of that statement is that it didn't have to be this way.

Complacency kills mid major leagues, especially in this 'eat or be eaten' climate that the NCAA has thrust us into, and the fact is that either LeCrone, the HL university presidents, or both became complacent following Butler's success, and did not plan for when the raging Ragnarok-like tempest of realignment came to their doorstep.

[Dave_2010]

Complacency kills mid major leagues, especially in this 'eat or be eaten' climate that the NCAA has thrust us into, and the fact is that either LeCrone, the HL university presidents, or both became complacent following Butler's success, and did not plan for when the raging Ragnarok-like tempest of realignment came to their doorstep.

For the sake of argument, doesn't "replacing" Wichita State with Valpo and not being proactive in the push for 12 also reek of status-quo maintaining complacency on the part of the MVC?

Belmont clearly had no interest in joining Murray State and neither Milwaukee nor Omaha had the looks of a competent MVC member. But to say a strong 3rd member didn't exist at all is hard for me to believe.

As much as I believe in the Valpo program, this move has the potential to drive Missouri State to C-USA the same way poor decisions in Indianapolis drove us to the Valley.

We (Valpo) always seem to be a year or two behind the realignment momentum of the day. It's burned us before, and I fear it may again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[a3uge]

Not sure I would characterize the graduation of teams to better leagues as failures per se, LeCrone's biggest failures occurred prior to and in the immediate aftermath of Butler leaving. His inability to lure more quality programs beyond simply adding Oakland started the league's slide. Immediately after Butler broke out he should have pitched expansion to the likes of Belmont Murray State the Dakotas Oakland  or even Morehead State who was also strong back then and could have capitalized on that momentum by joining a better league Had he done this the Horizon League may have ended up better than the MVC. Had he been proactive he may not have stopped Butler's exit but he very well could have prevented Loyola's and Valpo's and sent the MVC scrambling once Creighton and Wichita State bolted.

LeCrone's second great failure was harming Valpo, his bellwether program, with the neutral site tournament; and, more egregious than that, forcing them to play two conference games  games THAT DIDN'T COUNT TOWARD VALPO'S RPI. This, more than anything, cost the Crusaders that at-large berth.Yes, Northern Kentucky has proven to be a good addition to the league as has Oakland but the timing of the Northern Kentucky addition could not have been worse for Valpo, and indeed the league's profile as a whole.

It's not that he doesn't know a quality program when he sees one or what to look for when adding a program. What's always been the issue with LeCrone, and what's likely to be the death of the Horizon League as a quality mid major league is one word --timing. He mistimed his move to capitalize on Butler's success, he mistimed his desire to get aggressive and serious about expansion and "being like the big boys" and he's even mistimed the aftermath of Valpo's departure by showing us all that, despite all his bluff bluster and big talk, he had no plan and probably never did. Now, he's stuck with a declining league and the lifelong lament of what could have been. He may yet make his great power move, the league may even recover somewhat, but I bet it'll still be a league from which teams will run if the MVC ever comes calling again it will never be what it could have been; nor will it be, in all likelihood, as good as it once was, and the greatest tragedy of that statement is that it didn't have to be this way.

Complacency kills mid major leagues, especially in this 'eat or be eaten' climate that the NCAA has thrust us into, and the fact is that either LeCrone, the HL university presidents, or both became complacent following Butler's success, and did not plan for when the raging Ragnarok-like tempest of realignment came to their doorstep.

Belmont wasn't willing to join the MVC, let alone the Horizon. And Murray State has always been eyeing the MVC, and didn't want to jump to the Horizon League. I don't think it's fair to blame LeCrone for not adding schools that didn't want to join the league, just as much as Elgin shouldn't be blamed for not being able to add Belmont.

LeCrone actually played the Butler transition quite well. He never replaced Butler (which was impossible, obviously), but he replaced Loyola with a significantly better program. He did royally screw up the NKU addition though. Adding a program that wasn't D1 tournament eligible yet was inexcusable. NKU wasn't going anywhere in that year.

[VUGrad1314]

Not sure I would characterize the graduation of teams to better leagues as failures per se, LeCrone's biggest failures occurred prior to and in the immediate aftermath of Butler leaving. His inability to lure more quality programs beyond simply adding Oakland started the league's slide. Immediately after Butler broke out he should have pitched expansion to the likes of Belmont Murray State the Dakotas Oakland  or even Morehead State who was also strong back then and could have capitalized on that momentum by joining a better league Had he done this the Horizon League may have ended up better than the MVC. Had he been proactive he may not have stopped Butler's exit but he very well could have prevented Loyola's and Valpo's and sent the MVC scrambling once Creighton and Wichita State bolted.

LeCrone's second great failure was harming Valpo, his bellwether program, with the neutral site tournament; and, more egregious than that, forcing them to play two conference games  games THAT DIDN'T COUNT TOWARD VALPO'S RPI. This, more than anything, cost the Crusaders that at-large berth.Yes, Northern Kentucky has proven to be a good addition to the league as has Oakland but the timing of the Northern Kentucky addition could not have been worse for Valpo, and indeed the league's profile as a whole.

It's not that he doesn't know a quality program when he sees one or what to look for when adding a program. What's always been the issue with LeCrone, and what's likely to be the death of the Horizon League as a quality mid major league is one word --timing. He mistimed his move to capitalize on Butler's success, he mistimed his desire to get aggressive and serious about expansion and "being like the big boys" and he's even mistimed the aftermath of Valpo's departure by showing us all that, despite all his bluff bluster and big talk, he had no plan and probably never did. Now, he's stuck with a declining league and the lifelong lament of what could have been. He may yet make his great power move, the league may even recover somewhat, but I bet it'll still be a league from which teams will run if the MVC ever comes calling again it will never be what it could have been; nor will it be, in all likelihood, as good as it once was, and the greatest tragedy of that statement is that it didn't have to be this way.

Complacency kills mid major leagues, especially in this 'eat or be eaten' climate that the NCAA has thrust us into, and the fact is that either LeCrone, the HL university presidents, or both became complacent following Butler's success, and did not plan for when the raging Ragnarok-like tempest of realignment came to their doorstep.

Belmont wasn't willing to join the MVC, let alone the Horizon. And Murray State has always been eyeing the MVC, and didn't want to jump to the Horizon League. I don't think it's fair to blame LeCrone for not adding schools that didn't want to join the league, just as much as Elgin shouldn't be blamed for not being able to add Belmont.

LeCrone actually played the Butler transition quite well. He never replaced Butler (which was impossible, obviously), but he replaced Loyola with a significantly better program. He did royally screw up the NKU addition though. Adding a program that wasn't D1 tournament eligible yet was inexcusable. NKU wasn't going anywhere in that year.

One of the main arguments I have heard against a conference change for Belmont (and it could just be fan speculation I have no sources) is that none of the leagues that have called so far offer a sufficiently significant increase in national profile to justify the increased travel costs, particularly in the non-revenue sports This is to my mind an absurd assertion especially as it pertains to the MVC, but this is their argument (I do  believe that the inclusion of Murray State and the switch to divisions may well help sell them on the MVC especially with money drying up and their current TV deal expiring after the upcoming year)

If it's a profile boost they were after then the time to strike and line up Belmont (and others) was when the profile of the Horizon League was at its strongest following Butler's runs through the tournament  Remember those runs occurred BEFORE Belmont left the ASUN for the OVC so they WERE in fact contemplating a conference change. With Belmont situated in Nashville and most of the Horizon League schools in urban areas travel costs could have been mitigated to the point of feasibility. So yes it actually can be argued that LeCrone missed an opportunity

Complacency kills mid major leagues, especially in this 'eat or be eaten' climate that the NCAA has thrust us into, and the fact is that either LeCrone, the HL university presidents, or both became complacent following Butler's success, and did not plan for when the raging Ragnarok-like tempest of realignment came to their doorstep.

For the sake of argument, doesn't "replacing" Wichita State with Valpo and not being proactive in the push for 12 also reek of status-quo maintaining complacency on the part of the MVC?

Belmont clearly had no interest in joining Murray State and neither Milwaukee nor Omaha had the looks of a competent MVC member. But to say a strong 3rd member didn't exist at all is hard for me to believe.

As much as I believe in the Valpo program, this move has the potential to drive Missouri State to C-USA the same way poor decisions in Indianapolis drove us to the Valley.

We (Valpo) always seem to be a year or two behind the realignment momentum of the day. It's burned us before, and I fear it may again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Strong potential expansion adds did exist but they were well outside the MVC footprint, and with the conference as strongly tied to the state of Illinois and the budgetary realities that entails as the MVC is it was not financially workable to bring them in (This worked to our benefit I must add as we very possibly would have lost out in  a contest with Grand Canyon New Mexico State etc. The unwillingness to take Murray State along with Valpo, thereby adding two quality games to everyone's schedule still baffles me.)  However, to answer your initial question, yes, it does reek of status quo adherence; but it sounds as though an expansion plan is in place. Unlike  LeCrone, I fully trust Elgin to follow through on this plan and bring quality programs into the Valley. 

As for your point on Missouri State (and presumably Illinois State and Northern Iowa as well), any move out of the Valley on their part would be to an FBS conference. This means that the move would be purely football-driven and would be made irrespective of whatever expansion decisions Elgin makes. As basketball-first schools I find it very difficult to imagine such a move for any of these schools because CUSA is a terrible basketball conference and the MAC would cripple their programs due to travel costs. Also, while the midweek MAC games have been good for the national exposure of the conference it is hurting local fan support because nobody wants to rush to a game after work and then sit in the cold to watch the game for three hours when they have to work the next morning. The grass isn't always greener on the FBS side and these programs know this.

Even if they did leave, realignment may still put us in a conference of similar or greater strength. Maybe the A10 picks us up or the best of the remaining MVC members, the Summit, the Horizon, and perhaps the OVC all combine to form a new conference that doesn't exist yet.The thing is, even without those three programs, I still think the Valley might be the best conference in our region. It is imperative that Valpo hits the ground running in the Valley so that the program can protect itself from future realignment  (or benefit from it) by being as attractive as possible to other conferences.

Although I am as staunch an advocate of facility upgrades as you're going to find, I'm not sure I agree with your last statement about Valpo being behind realignment trends. While it may have just been cover to get Valpo to commit to facility upgrades, it's also very possible that Elgin was telling the truth when he mentioned market size as a major factor. We know firsthand from our experience with LeCrone how important a factor market size can be. The fact remains, if market truly mattered, back in 2013, and there is no good reason to believe otherwise since Valpo made far and away the most basketball sense for the conference in both go-rounds, we never really had a shot at getting in over Loyola when Creighton left anyway . I'm just glad we're in now.   

[VUGrad1314]

Didn't know where else to put this, so I'll put it here: Belmont's coach on the possibility of realignment affecting his school:

https://soundcloud.com/user-232619420/belmonts-rick-byrd-on-rumors-of-joining-missouri-valley-conference

Summary:

Likes Belmont's lot in the OVC

Doesn't sound like the will is there financially to meet what the MVC would demand .

Says the MVC is "a good league " but  believes that it's a one-bid league  as evidenced by Illinois State getting snubbed this past year

That last point irks me. The MVC won't be a one-bid league with  Belmont and Murray State added along with internal improvement from the current MVC members . I just don't understand why folks don't see that. An improved and expanded MVC can get 2-3 bids.

[valporun]

Happens when you coach at a school for as long as Rick Byrd has, and being the top dog boosts your ego with a perennial birth to the NCAA from your one-bid league.

[FWalum]

Likes Belmont's lot in the OVC

Doesn't sound like the will is there financially to meet what the MVC would demand .

Says the MVC is "a good league " but  believes that it's a one-bid league  as evidenced by Illinois State getting snubbed this past year

That last point irks me. The MVC won't be a one-bid league with  Belmont and Murray State added along with internal improvement from the current MVC members . I just don't understand why folks don't see that. An improved and expanded MVC can get 2-3 bids.

I am a little surprised by this complacency.  As valporun implied, this might be the result of a coach near the end of his run.  Or perhaps this is the administrations line like it was for a time when Valpo was in the MidCon.

[VULB#62]

Likes Belmont's lot in the OVC

Doesn't sound like the will is there financially to meet what the MVC would demand .

Says the MVC is "a good league " but  believes that it's a one-bid league  as evidenced by Illinois State getting snubbed this past year

That last point irks me. The MVC won't be a one-bid league with  Belmont and Murray State added along with internal improvement from the current MVC members . I just don't understand why folks don't see that. An improved and expanded MVC can get 2-3 bids.

I am a little surprised by this complacency.  As valporun implied, this might be the result of a coach near the end of his run.  Or perhaps this is the administrations line like it was for a time when Valpo was in the MidCon.

Another indication of same:  Belmont 2016 average attendance = 2536 in a what Paul Oren called a beautiful facility.  From the Belmont site: "The Curb Event Center arena has 5,000 permanent seats in an oval configuration and a permanent maple hardwood floor. It has three full-size basketball courts and eight suites."  Opened Fall 2003.

In contrast:  Valpol 2016 average attendance = 3572 in a facility that is all retractable bleachers, with a small amount having plastic chair backs. Same listed seating (5000), but Valpo has an additional 400 in standing room. Opened Fall of 19 freakin' 84.

[VUGrad1314]

Likes Belmont's lot in the OVC Doesn't sound like the will is there financially to meet what the MVC would demand . Says the MVC is "a good league " but  believes that it's a one-bid league  as evidenced by Illinois State getting snubbed this past year That last point irks me. The MVC won't be a one-bid league with  Belmont and Murray State added along with internal improvement from the current MVC members . I just don't understand why folks don't see that. An improved and expanded MVC can get 2-3 bids.

I am a little surprised by this complacency.  As valporun implied, this might be the result of a coach near the end of his run.  Or perhaps this is the administrations line like it was for a time when Valpo was in the MidCon.

Another indication of same:  Belmont 2016 average attendance = 2536 in a what Paul Oren called a beautiful facility.  From the Belmont site: "The Curb Event Center arena has 5,000 permanent seats in an oval configuration and a permanent maple hardwood floor. It has three full-size basketball courts and eight suites."  Opened Fall 2003. In contrast:  Valpol 2016 average attendance = 3572 in a facility that is all retractable bleachers, with a small amount having plastic chair backs. Same listed seating (5000), but Valpo has an additional 400 in standing room. Opened Fall of 19 freakin' 84.

Is that part and parcel of Belmont's complacency or is that gulf in attendance attributable to Valpo and Belmont's place in the sports pecking order of their locations? Despite being a more successful team most years, Belmont is comfortably behind Vanderbilt the Vols and pro teams like the Predators  and the Titans for entertainment dollars in Nashville in addition to the music scene. Is Belmont struggling to attract people to their gym because there's no will to invest or is there no will because of that low attendance number?

I think Rick Byrd's statement that "our fans know the OVC schools" is part of Belmont's attendance problem and more of a reason to jump to a better conference than to stay. The fans know the OVC schools, and they also know that with the exception of Murray State, and the once a decade good teams fielded by Morehead State, EKU, Tennessee State, Tennessee Tech, or Austin Peay, those teams all consistently suck. Who wants to go watch that when there's so much other stuff to do especially when the weather gets chilly\cold? I think adding teams like Illinois State, Missouri State, Bradley, Southern Illinois, Northern Iowa, and Valpo to the schedule consistently--schools with longstanding well-established brands--would be just what the doctor ordered to boost their attendance and pull in a greater share of those Nashville entertainment dollars.

The argument that the OVC gives them an easier path to the dance is also stupid because it only works if you successfully walk the tightrope and don't trip in the conference tournament. Lose there and not only are you not going to the tournament, you're also not going to host any NIT games, which means lost revenue for the school. At least a decent MVC team would get the chance to host at least one game and if they do get to the tournament, they'll have a chance to win their first round game. The OVC may offer the easiest path to reaching the ceiling but it's also easier to fall harder and further due to a much lower floor; whereas the MVC has a higher, more difficult to reach ceiling but offers a softer landing on a much higher floor. Couple that with the fact that the MVC is a multi-bid conference in many sports and the reluctance to join becomes all the more baffling.

[bigmosmithfan1]

Yeah, I'm hesitant to get into a midmajor attendance-based argument when one of the schools has to battle an NFL team, an NHL team, and an SEC team all housed in their own town for attention. Gate figures don't necessarily correlate with the quality of your program. (Look at Northwestern football -- a solid top 40-ish program most years with bowl games in 7 of the past 11 seasons, yet dead last in the Big Ten in attendance because they have to compete with the Bears, Cubs, Sox, Bulls and the Blackhawks for attention and fans).

I don't agree with Belmont's view on this issue, but anyone who remembers Valpo's stubborn cling to the old Mid-Con in the years immediately after the Sweet 16 appearance knows how it comes about.