NWI Times: Is Valparaiso getting hazed by Valley officials?

[VU2014]

Valley officiating has been a frequent topic of conversation on this forum.

Check out Paul Oren's newest article. 

http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/inside-vu-sports/is-valparaiso-getting-hazed-by-valley-officials/article_9c982a48-0d11-11e8-a8ce-537a15574eeb.html

https://twitter.com/NWIOren/status/961753090054610944

Is Valparaiso getting hazed by Valley officials?
By: Paul Oren
February 8, 2018


Valparaiso's Bakari Evelyn charges into an Evansville defender during a game earlier this season.
Photo by: Suzanne Tennant, The Times

http://www.nwitimes.com/blogs/sports/inside-vu-sports/is-valparaiso-getting-hazed-by-valley-officials/article_9c982a48-0d11-11e8-a8ce-537a15574eeb.html

[M]

I think the free throw discrepancy has way more to do with shot selection and athleticism/strength. I do think we've been hosed on some pretty terrible calls in big situations this year. Those calls are the ones that make me wonder if our coaching staff is being tested by the officials.

[FieldGoodie05]

We also have two WWE superstar LB playing minutes (Linssen + Mileek).  These (2) make some atrocious fouls several times a game on average.

Golder fouls a three point shooter 1x a game, and if he misses Bakari fills in.

I joke, but we make a solid 5 bonehead fouls / game that I'd argue most senior laddened teams don't consistently make. 

And I'd agree with M, we have had some really head scratching fouls called on us during hustle plays by Max and Tevonn.  I think that those two are fouled several times a game where their brute Canuck lumberjack strength is a detriment.  If they were Micah's size there would be some fouls called in their favor.

[wh]

Unless the refs are also responsible for the inexperienced roster, centers with heavy feet, limited athleticism and lack of rebounding ability, a team TO average closer to 20 than 10, and terrible 3-pt. and FT shooting averages, we might be better off remaining quiet about foul disparity. Besides, the way this team shoots FT's, more opponent foul calls may not change the score that much.

[VU2014]

Reasons we're losing games:
-inexperience
-too many turnovers
-talent gap (when we're relying on Kiser for big minutes we're not going to win many games)
-Poor FT shooting
-Pedestrian 3pt shooting
-not enough developed play makers

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-Some awful key calls going against us, but we put ourselves in a position to where they really hurt more then they should. The officiating has been very inconsistent throughout these games which is my only complaint. But I think everyone agrees the refs aren't the reason we're in last place.

[nkvu]

I don't dispute that many fouls called on us are obvious and even silly i.e. consistantly fouling three point shooters etc. 

However, there are two areas that to my untrained eye seems to me that a disparity occurs. The first is the charge/block call. I have a sense that opponents can slide in front of our players, fall backward on contact and get the charge call more often than we get the block call.  Conversely, our players don't sell the charge enough on contact when defending.

The second is when our bigs try to back down their defender. Our two bigs are so much taller than the guys guarding them that it seems that when they try to back down a smaller defender all the defender has to do is flop on contact and they get the charging call. On the other hand opponents bigs are allowed much more contact in backing down our bigs who don't tend to flop on contact.

My conclusion is that the Valley referees didn't get the memo a few years ago when I believe not giving floppers the call was an area of emphasis. If that's the case (and I leave it to those more knowledgeable than I am to say if this is true) then we need to get a drama coach for the team to teach them how to sell these fouls.

In this first year in the Valley we have to learn how the referees are going to allow the game to be played, and adjust our game accordingly. Personally I hate when floppers get calls. But if that's the way games are called we better adjust or we will continue to be disadvantaged.

While I'm at it I'll make another observation that has nothing to do with the way games are called.  That is our bigs are either too weak to establish post position deep, or our perimeter players have not figured out how to make an entry pass to the post. Granted Sorrola has demonstrated no inside offensive game unless delivered a feed for a layup (notice I didn't say dunk) off a dribble drive by our guards. But Smits has some offensive post moves. When he has to start his posession from the foul line and tries a dribble move to the basket it more often results in a turnover than a basket.  But give him a feed deep in the post he at least has a chance to make a move. Somehow next year either through player improvement or a different scheme we have to better utilize our size advantage at the 5. It is the one advantage we have over the other teams in the Valley. If this doesn't start paying off next year then we have to change our recruiting strategy and recruit skill rather than size at the five.

[bbtds]

Somehow next year either through pr l ayer improvement or a different scheme for communicating with God we have to better utilize our size advantage at the 5. It is the one advantage we have over the other teams in the Valley. If we don't start praying off next year then we have to change our recruiting strategy and recruit skill rather than size at the five.

I fixed it for you.

I also wonder why we haven't got shorter more skilled players playing the 5 before.

[M]

Our guards might have more luck attacking the lane if they'd actually wait for that screen from Smitsrolla to be set.  Of course when they do wait it seems that Smitsrolla slips the screen so who knows.

[justducky]

Golder fouls a three point shooter 1x a game, and if he misses Bakari fills in.I joke

No that covers it pretty well, and as a student of the game Kiser seems to be watching their art form and taking notes.

we make a solid 5 bonehead fouls / game that I'd argue most senior laddened teams don't consistently make. 

More like 2.5 to 3.5 but I agree with your point. Fortunately they should mature out of much of this by next season.

[JD24]

 "we're getting hosed by the officials!" has been the battlecry of losers since sports began being officiated.

[wh]

Somehow next year either through pr l ayer improvement or a different scheme for communicating with God we have to better utilize our size advantage at the 5. It is the one advantage we have over the other teams in the Valley. If we don't start praying off next year then we have to change our recruiting strategy and recruit skill rather than size at the five.

I fixed it for you.

I also wonder why we haven't got shorter more skilled players playing the 5 before.

Speaking of which, what I wouldn't give for a reincarnation of KVW about now.

[justducky]

Speaking of which, what I wouldn't give for a reincarnation of KVW about now.

As a sophomore Kevin only gave us limited minutes but admittedly much of that was due to his constant back pain. Still at a starting point with Jay and Derrik taking the 17-18 season and Kevin taking the 10-11; I would rate their potential theoretical upsides as #1 Derrik, #2 Jay and #3 Kevin and I would do this year in and year out on any day of the week.

On the other hand Kevin had a very good Junior year and we will have to wait and see on the Smirollas. Hopefully 

[a3uge]

The officiating in the MVC has been attrotious. I'm not sure if we're getting the same crews week to week, or if they're different crews than what we had in the Horizon, but the refs are incredibly inconsistent. It's baffling how the charge call gets redefined weekly. The low-callibar officiating makes these games even more painful to watch.

[VUGrad1314]

To even suggest this is a bad take and a horrible reflection of our fanbase. This is why other fanbases think we're stupid entitled arrogant delusional out of touch with reality or whatever description they'd like to use. There are so many reasons that have nothing to do with officials or fouls or free throws that this shouldn't even enter our minds as an explanation for our struggles. We've allowed teams to race out to double digit leads, we turn the ball over 17 18 20+ times; sometimes even 4-5 times in a row; we take terrible shots in crunch time, we're constantly outrebounded, we haven't yet seen a go to scorer emergency while pretty much every other team in this conference has AT LEAST one, the fan base by an large (present company on this board excluded) is laying a bigger egg than this team ever could, etc.,  and yet we seriously think that the officials are the problem? Some of us need to look in the mirror. We need to decide from the fanbase on up what we want to be. Are we just happy to be in this conference or do we want to become leaders in it like we're accustomed to being? This is going to take EVERYBODY. We CAN do it, but it's going to take all of us. Together. Our commitment needs to match or exceed everyone else's, because everyone is strongly committed and everyone has a rich tradition to sell. Marketing and financial support are critical for us and far more important than any referree's whistle.

[valpopal]

To even suggest this is a bad take and a horrible reflection of our fanbase. This is why other fanbases think we're stupid entitled arrogant delusional out of touch with reality or whatever description they'd like to use. There are so many reasons that have nothing to do with officials or fouls or free throws that this shouldn't even enter our minds as an explanation for our struggles. We've allowed teams to race out to double digit leads, we turn the ball over 17 18 20+ times; sometimes even 4-5 times in a row; we take terrible shots in crunch time, we're constantly outrebounded, we haven't yet seen a go to scorer emergency while pretty much every other team in this conference has AT LEAST one, the fan base by an large (present company on this board excluded) is laying a bigger egg than this team ever could, etc.,  and yet we seriously think that the officials are the problem? Some of us need to look in the mirror. We need to decide from the fanbase on up what we want to be. Are we just happy to be in this conference or do we want to become leaders in it like we're accustomed to being? This is going to take EVERYBODY. We CAN do it, but it's going to take all of us. Together. Our commitment needs to match or exceed everyone else's, because everyone is strongly committed and everyone has a rich tradition to sell. Marketing and financial support are critical for us and far more important than any referree's whistle.

I don't understand why we can't combine two perceptions into one overall conclusion. Yes, this year's team does have a number of weaknesses, as stated above, and nobody is disputing this; but that only means there is less of a margin of error allowed in order for the team to win. Of course, if this was a dominant team in all areas as in other years, winning would occur most games, even on nights of poor officiating. However, as a weaker team this year, Valpo needs everything to be working well in order to win, including not losing games due to great disparities in fouls called. Paul has documented the disparities. And in some games Valpo has actually tied or led the opponent in just about all significant categories.


For instance, in the Evansville game Valpo scored more field goals (23-22), made more 3-point field goals (8-3), only had two more turnovers (18-16), and only 3 fewer assists (9-12), and had 6 fewer rebounds but because Evansville took 5 fewer shots (52-47), while Valpo had more shot blocks (5-1). Those are good stats for Valpo. The only big difference: free throw attempts (Evansville 23, Valpo 5), and even the home announcers couldn't believe the phantom calls against Valpo. Final score 63-59 Evansville: free throw attempts 23-5 Evansville.


In the previous game against Southern Illinois, the same was true: field goals (Valpo 24-SIU 24), 3-point field goals (Valpo 6, SIU 3), Rebounds (Valpo 29, SIU 30), Assists (Valpo 13, SIU 7), and though Valpo had more turnovers (17-11), that didn't lead to more shots (Valpo 49, SIU 49). Valpo also led in blocks (2-1). Another game with good stats for Valpo. But the final score 65-59 SIU, and once more the difference in the game, free throw attempts (Valpo 11, SIU 24). Again, even the home announcers seemed surprised by some of the foul calls, and Lottich commented in the postgame conferences on the free throw disparities and suggested some poor calls.


Therefore, it is okay to acknowledge Valpo has a weaker team this year (and I have been among those stating marketing and promotion needs to be elevated, so I agree there as well), while also observing the difference in close games is the large number of opponents' free throw attempts, some of them taken on phantom foul calls by the refs.

[valpolaw]

I can't get on board with the complaining about refs like there's some big grand conspiracy to screw over Valpo of all teams. I think we need to give it a rest. Seems like a lame excuse for losing to me. I agree that we need to look at ourselves and what the team is doing wrong before trying to blame the refs.

[justducky]

I can't get on board with the complaining about refs like there's some big grand conspiracy to screw over Valpo of all teams. I think we need to give it a rest. Seems like a lame excuse for losing to me. I agree that we need to look at ourselves and what the team is doing wrong before trying to blame the refs.

These observations are simple and correct. Next year we will have a team of maturing winners and the rest of the MVC will be wondering why we seem to be getting the majority of the calls.

Better days are coming. 

[a3uge]

The issue isn't the refs singling out Valpo, it's that we've seemingly had a downgrade in officiating coming from the Horizon.

[valpopal]

No matter how you feel about this subject, Paul is doing Lottich a favor by reporting on the pattern of disparity in foul calls and absorbing any criticism arising from his article. The issue is now out there where everyone is aware of the numbers going forward, and Lottich didn't have to be the one to work the refs.

[VUGrad1314]

Viewed that way it's a pretty stand up move by Paul. Would still like to see Lottich take the bull by the horns on this issue. If it's worth bringing up in the post game presser it's worth bringing up to the officials themselves during the game. The responsibility for doing so falls on Lottich.

[UNIFTW]

The issue isn't the refs singling out Valpo, it's that we've seemingly had a downgrade in officiating coming from the Horizon.

10000% untrue. The MVC pulls its officials from the best consortium of officials there is. The Horizon pulled from the worst. Welcome to having officials that know what they are doing. The Valley gets guys who regularly do S16s, Elite 8s, Final Fours, and multiple national title games. The MVC pulls the same officials that the Big 10 and B12 pull. Simply put the MVC officials - even the bad ones and those exist - are better at their job than the pool the Horizon pulls from.

This is a whiner article written for clicks and completely ignored a few things.

UNI is doing quite well in his FT stats....in 9th place and complete garbage.

Valpo is
7th in scoring in the MVC
7th in scoring defense
7th in FG%
9th in FG defense
7th in FT %
dead last in rebounding
9th most TOs
Dead last in ATO.

Maybe it's not refs that are the issue and it's desperate attempts to create a narrative other than writing the team isn't good.

Turns out you can't be at the bottom of the conference in that many stats and win games. Again, UNI is in the exact same situation but does well by his numbers. Explain that one if there is merit to this excuse ridden, blame shifting, loser mentality article.

Valpo is no longer the most athletic team. They are probably bottom third. The games Ove seem Valpo has been out of position, a step slow, a step ahead as an over correction, mistimed challenges. That causes fouls to add up. That means the bonus gets hit and FTs are awarded.

Valpo isn't really an aggressive team, on offense or defense, compared to how most Valley teams play. When you aren't the aggressor you're going to get called for fouls. Period.

This article, as someone else pointed out, and the fact it's so agreed with is exactly why previous conference mates viewed you the way they did. Creighton and Wichita State thought the same way and were despised for being the whines little expletives they are. Gregg Marshall literally went on record in an official post game press conference on St Louis and said the Valley made sure officials made them lose.

Don't be like that, especially in your first year. At least those two programs had historically good MVC programs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[justducky]

Valpo is 7th in scoring in the MVC7th in scoring defense 7th in FG%9th in FG defense7th in FT %dead last in rebounding9th most TOsDead last in ATO. Maybe it's not refs that are the issue and it's desperate attempts to create a narrative other than writing the team isn't good.

Whaa     You are hurting our feelings!  Whaa 

[valpopal]

Your Honor, Exhibit #1:


[tweet]956368100349407232[/tweet]

[Pgmado]

The issue isn't the refs singling out Valpo, it's that we've seemingly had a downgrade in officiating coming from the Horizon.

10000% untrue. The MVC pulls its officials from the best consortium of officials there is. The Horizon pulled from the worst. Welcome to having officials that know what they are doing. The Valley gets guys who regularly do S16s, Elite 8s, Final Fours, and multiple national title games. The MVC pulls the same officials that the Big 10 and B12 pull. Simply put the MVC officials - even the bad ones and those exist - are better at their job than the pool the Horizon pulls from.

This is a whiner article written for clicks and completely ignored a few things.

UNI is doing quite well in his FT stats....in 9th place and complete garbage.

Valpo is
7th in scoring in the MVC
7th in scoring defense
7th in FG%
9th in FG defense
7th in FT %
dead last in rebounding
9th most TOs
Dead last in ATO.

Maybe it's not refs that are the issue and it's desperate attempts to create a narrative other than writing the team isn't good.

Turns out you can't be at the bottom of the conference in that many stats and win games. Again, UNI is in the exact same situation but does well by his numbers. Explain that one if there is merit to this excuse ridden, blame shifting, loser mentality article.

Valpo is no longer the most athletic team. They are probably bottom third. The games Ove seem Valpo has been out of position, a step slow, a step ahead as an over correction, mistimed challenges. That causes fouls to add up. That means the bonus gets hit and FTs are awarded.

Valpo isn't really an aggressive team, on offense or defense, compared to how most Valley teams play. When you aren't the aggressor you're going to get called for fouls. Period.

This article, as someone else pointed out, and the fact it's so agreed with is exactly why previous conference mates viewed you the way they did. Creighton and Wichita State thought the same way and were despised for being the whines little expletives they are. Gregg Marshall literally went on record in an official post game press conference on St Louis and said the Valley made sure officials made them lose.

Don't be like that, especially in your first year. At least those two programs had historically good MVC programs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A couple points from the author here...

1) The consortium that the Horizon League is in pulls officials from the Big Ten. The consortium that the Valley is in pulls officials from the Big 12. These two links illustrate that the Big Ten and Big 12 pull from different groups of officials, so it appears that UNIFTW is 10,000% untrue.

https://mbb.officiating.com/

http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/061517aab.html


2) Is the headline clickbait? Perhaps. Welcome to blogging in 2018. Is it possible for a journalist to ask a question while not believing the answer is yes? I don't think Valparaiso is getting hazed by the officials, but enough fans and people associated with the team have asked the question, so it was worth digging into the data.

3) I repeat several times in the article that Valparaiso could be/are a step slow this season. Before I get into the data I mention that perhaps Valparaiso is just a bad team and then I mention it again at the end of the data.

At no point in this article is there whining occurring. There is simply a presentation of factual numbers.

[a3uge]

The issue isn't the refs singling out Valpo, it's that we've seemingly had a downgrade in officiating coming from the Horizon.

10000% untrue. The MVC pulls its officials from the best consortium of officials there is. The Horizon pulled from the worst. Welcome to having officials that know what they are doing. The Valley gets guys who regularly do S16s, Elite 8s, Final Fours, and multiple national title games. The MVC pulls the same officials that the Big 10 and B12 pull. Simply put the MVC officials - even the bad ones and those exist - are better at their job than the pool the Horizon pulls from.

This is a whiner article written for clicks and completely ignored a few things.

UNI is doing quite well in his FT stats....in 9th place and complete garbage.

Valpo is
7th in scoring in the MVC
7th in scoring defense
7th in FG%
9th in FG defense
7th in FT %
dead last in rebounding
9th most TOs
Dead last in ATO.

Maybe it's not refs that are the issue and it's desperate attempts to create a narrative other than writing the team isn't good.

Turns out you can't be at the bottom of the conference in that many stats and win games. Again, UNI is in the exact same situation but does well by his numbers. Explain that one if there is merit to this excuse ridden, blame shifting, loser mentality article.

Valpo is no longer the most athletic team. They are probably bottom third. The games Ove seem Valpo has been out of position, a step slow, a step ahead as an over correction, mistimed challenges. That causes fouls to add up. That means the bonus gets hit and FTs are awarded.

Valpo isn't really an aggressive team, on offense or defense, compared to how most Valley teams play. When you aren't the aggressor you're going to get called for fouls. Period.

This article, as someone else pointed out, and the fact it's so agreed with is exactly why previous conference mates viewed you the way they did. Creighton and Wichita State thought the same way and were despised for being the whines little expletives they are. Gregg Marshall literally went on record in an official post game press conference on St Louis and said the Valley made sure officials made them lose.

Don't be like that, especially in your first year. At least those two programs had historically good MVC programs.


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Holy strawman Batman. My complaint wasn't with refs singling out Valpo, a point which you apparently didn't read. I don't really care where these refs have come from; they've been absolute garbage this year. For both sides and in non Valpo games. Admittedly reffing in the Horizon was bad, but I've never seen a player get called for a foul while being held in a headlock. The MVC is more post-based, and less high paced (last year the Horizon had 5 of the top 30 teams in terms of pace, MVC had nobody in top 150), so that's why there's more calls; there's more opportunities for bad calls. From watching the Horizon, refs tended to call games similarly over the years. It was annoying watching basically MMA with a ball for the first 5 years, but you knew what you were going to get. My biggest gripe (other than the absurd charge calls) with the MVC is that they're so inconsistent game to game. Maybe that's using refs from all over the place like you said, but it's been brutal.