Law School to move to Tennessee

[vu72]

Just saw this!  Now what will the Board decide to do with all that land! Murfreesboro is about 25 miles Southeast of Nashville.

https://www.dnj.com/story/news/2018/06/22/mtsu-talks-valparaiso-university-move-law-school-murfreesboro/726670002/

[sfnmman]

Here's MTSU's announcement from their university web site.  Pretty much the same information as above.  Hopefully, if this goes through VU will get something positive in addition to removing what apparently was a financially struggling program.  I would imagine that there are numerous Valpo alumni that will be sorry to see the Law School go.

http://mtsunews.com/mtsu-valparaiso-law-school-talks/

[valpotx]

Does this essentially mean that all prior graduates just trace their degree to MTSU if this goes through?  Meaning that any degree verifications would have to be through their office?  I don't get what this actually means from a logistics standpoint, as I assume that most of the staff won't move.

[vu72]

Does this essentially mean that all prior graduates just trace their degree to MTSU if this goes through?  Meaning that any degree verifications would have to be through their office?  I don't get what this actually means from a logistics standpoint, as I assume that most of the staff won't move.

I guess it is kinda like a college closing like, Say, St. Joes.  That doesn't answer your question but what ever the answer is would apply to previous Valpo law grads.  The big advantage for MTSU is the acreditdation, which would normally take up a lot of time and the reputation of Valpo law.  I would think some faculty would need to go along and that would logically be on Valpo's tab as a part of the cost of unloading the financial drain.  Lots of moving parts to be sure.

[sfnmman]

Here's a detailed accounting of the Law School situation published in March.  I don't think this was brought to the attention of members of this forum.

https://www.theindianalawyer.com/articles/46463-valpo-deans-resignation-latest-of-troubled-law-schools-woes

[VU2014]

https://twitter.com/kevinokeefe/status/1010632846619398144

[VUGrad1314]

Can we get a Home and Home with them in basketball as part of the deal?

[vu72]

A done deal.

http://www.wgnsradio.com/agreement-to-transfer-law-school-to-murfreesboro-with-mtsu-and-valparaiso-university-cms-47728

[talksalot]

although...from the MTSU view...still a few hurdles

http://mtsunews.com/mtsu-valparaiso-law-school-agreement/

[crusader05]

Yeah sounds like it's a done deal regarding the parameters between the two universities but there are tons of different regulatory bodies involved that could torpedo it happening outside of whether or not Valpo and MTSU are on the same page

[vu72]

It hit the Nashville NPR radio station yesterday.  The report added that MTSU would reimburse Valpo $2 million primarily for faculty salaries.  The law library will be moved as well.

[78crusader]

This is a terrible blow to the university and the administration is largely to blame for this debacle.  In an era of dramatically declining law school enrollments nationwide, VU was somehow getting larger and larger first year law classes.  We now know many of these students were not law school material (which ultimately resulted in low bar exam passage rates and problems with the ABA.)  Why VU did not stop and question how we were actually increasing law school enrollment when nationwide enrollment was way down is beyond me.  The only explanation is the university looked the other way, was blinded by the dollars the school was bringing in, and did not properly supervise the law school.  This closure could have been prevented if proper steps were taken 10 years ago, and now we lose the prestige of having (what was once regarded as) a good law program.  It is a stain on the entire institution. 

Paul

[vu72]

This is a terrible blow to the university and the administration is largely to blame for this debacle.  In an era of dramatically declining law school enrollments nationwide, VU was somehow getting larger and larger first year law classes.  We now know many of these students were not law school material (which ultimately resulted in low bar exam passage rates and problems with the ABA.)  Why VU did not stop and question how we were actually increasing law school enrollment when nationwide enrollment was way down is beyond me.  The only explanation is the university looked the other way, was blinded by the dollars the school was bringing in, and did not properly supervise the law school.  This closure could have been prevented if proper steps were taken 10 years ago, and now we lose the prestige of having (what was once regarded as) a good law program.  It is a stain on the entire institution. 

Paul

I'm curious.  What "proper steps" could have closed the decline in nationwide law school enrollment?  And how were to attract those lower numbered candidates who had a choice of ND or IU over Valpo?  I certainly agree it is a blow to the University.  You have a continued hostile view of the administration yet fail to provide specific solutions versus simply complaining about  failed efforts.

[vu72]

Shocking news!  The deal is off!  Now what... 

https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2

[crusader05]

My guess is it closes after this year. There are hardly any students left and it has to be costing tons of money to keep all that staff on with no chance of them transferring.

It was a valiant effort to try to keep the legacy alive but now I don't know what you do next. Honestly, the law school was considered lesser when I went to valpo in 2001. The large increase in law students in the mid-2000s keep it going but when that bubble popped so did our chances. Regional Law schools just aren't a thing anymore with how competitive the job market is.

[valpo95]

I'm curious.  What "proper steps" could have closed the decline in nationwide law school enrollment?  And how were to attract those lower numbered candidates who had a choice of ND or IU over Valpo?  I certainly agree it is a blow to the University.  You have a continued hostile view of the administration yet fail to provide specific solutions versus simply complaining about  failed efforts.

That's harsh. Clearly the VU administration did not cause the overall decline in law school enrollments. However, what is crystal clear is that  VU Law was admitting too many students who were not qualified (students that probably were not admitted to ND or IU, either). The LSAT scores over time are very clear in this regard. This caused the bar passage rates to dramatically decline. These twin issues brought about the censure from the ABA and the New York Times article, both of which were damaging to the brand and to the University.

The VU administration should have stepped in to insure admission standards were being upheld. A few years ago, the University of Minnesota Law School made a commitment to maintain high admission standards, even if it meant a smaller student body and that the University would subsidize the law school. If such subsidies were not possible for VU, then the decision could have been made to have an orderly wind-down, sale or merger of the law school much earlier. This would not have been a black eye to the University, just a recognition of the changing environment.

[vu84v2]

As far as the deal with the State of Tennessee and MTSU, if the vote was only 8-5 against I would expect that Valpo and MTSU might try to address the issues that caused dissent and reapply. I know nothing about this sort of approval, but it would seem that it might not be impossible to turn the vote around.

[crusader05]

I hope their might be an appeals process but if the ultimate vote is because the other law schools in the state said "no" because they don't want the competition that might be hard to fix on appeals as it seems that was the main concern. I'd imagine if that gets fixed it would need to happen on MTSU's end but their statement seemed to not suggest any attempt to fight the ruling

[crusadermoe]

I think it's fair to criticize the board and president for not being more proactive for reasons above.  Nightmare publicity has followed now. 

The idea that the heavy hitters in Tennessee don't want MTSU to have a law school seems like an unlikely hurdle for VU and MTSU to clear.  I had thought Vanderbilt had a law school.  In light of Nashville's growth I would be surprised if Tennesse doesn't say "oh yeah, we meant to talk to you about our plans to start one there!  Medical schools are so often opened in state capitals and big cities.  I am surprised one didn't open decades ago when the law market was strong!

[valpo64]

For about the last 15-20 years I have always heard that there were far too many attorneys for the amount of law positions  available including both private and public sector.  To me that fact, if true, explains why enrollment is down at  law schools around the country, especially at smaller schools.  Perhaps that is the reason we were forced to close our Law School, however disappointing that may be.  I know of several people with law degrees who are not in the legal field because they couldn't get a job in the legal field.

[vu72]

I think it's fair to criticize the board and president for not being more proactive for reasons above.  Nightmare publicity has followed now. 

The idea that the heavy hitters in Tennessee don't want MTSU to have a law school seems like an unlikely hurdle for VU and MTSU to clear.  I had thought Vanderbilt had a law school. In light of Nashville's growth I would be surprised if Tennesse doesn't say "oh yeah, we meant to talk to you about our plans to start one there!  Medical schools are so often opened in state capitals and big cities.  I am surprised one didn't open decades ago when the law market was strong!

Vanderbilt and Belmont have private law schools in Nashville and there is a Nashville School of Law that is not accredited.

[78crusader]

Many law schools made the decision about 10 years ago to buckle up for the rough ride and take in fewer students, in recognition that law school applications were way down and likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.  For instance, a few years ago the first year class at the University of Iowa was less than 100 students -- a pretty dramatic decline from previous years. The same story repeated itself in law schools across the country.  This was not a secret.  Everyone -- including VU -- knew that there was a new reality that was going to stick around for 10-15 years at least.   

These law schools made the tough-but-necessary decision to admit fewer students in order to keep their law school admission standards high.  And guess what?  All of these schools survived.  What did VU do?  Go for LARGER classes -- and lower admission standards.  The verdict is now in, and it isn't pretty.

President Heckler, the board, and the law school are all to blame.  Maybe this is a harsh sentence but it is entirely fair.  They could have made a tough-but-necessary decision 10 years ago like their peers but chose not to take their medicine even though just about everyone else was tightening their belts and riding out the storm. 

This is HUGE blow to VU, make no mistake. 

Paul

[loschwitz]

Here is how the story played out in Tennessee.  Lots of opposition from the existing law schools.  Some curious arguments from the opponents.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/schools/mtsu/2018/10/18/mtsu-valparaiso-law-school-denied-add-no-value-tennessee-memphis-oppose/1673571002/

[covufan]

Shocking news!  The deal is off!  Now what... 

https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2

What a cluster!  We had college educated people running things the last several years, right?


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[covufan]

Shocking news!  The deal is off!  Now what... 

https://www.nwitimes.com/news/education/update-tennessee-regulators-reject-valparaiso-university-law-school-s-deal/article_7d59ef08-b4fa-5c41-bf13-4a40cdb7f6a3.html#utm_source=nwitimes.com&utm_campaign=%2Femail-updates%2Fbreaking%2F&utm_medium=email&utm_content=E0F70624F98C80330FDC36F64F3768B2AE53C8F2

If it were up to me, I'd try to strike a deal with IU. Start an IU NW Law School on the Valpo campus.


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