Transfers

[wh]

I'm also getting tired of the "Lottich is," or "Lottich isn't," on every topic here, and I say this as a member of Team Lottich Isn't. Can we all just agree with the returning roster, incoming freshmen, and experienced  transfers that next year is THE year where we find out if he's the guy or not?

No one is singing Matt's praises and riling the naysayers. These discussions begin with a small number of Matt haters blaming him for every development, siding without exception with the quitters, taking their word as gospel, accusing him for being in over his head, running the wrong offense, promoting the claims of some 18-year-old somewhere who said Matt can't relate to the players, that the players don't like him, blah, blah, blah. Not one of these people has the slightest clue whether any of it is true, but like 10 year olds think it must be so because otherwise why would players be leaving the program. This  nonsense is projected on this board on a daily basis for the world to see - friends, foes, recruits, players families, everyone. They do this knowing full well that Matt is not in a position to tell his side of the story or set the record straight. It's cowardly, unfair, and irresponsible, but it seems to be the order of the day on forums where people operate in anonymity. Others of us see this for what it is and aren't willing for these people to go unchecked and mislead everyone who follows this board that these are the prevailing beliefs of Crusader fans when they're not. When the incessant critics knock off their crap, no one will need to set the record straight. It's that simple.

[VUGrad1314]

I'm also getting tired of the "Lottich is," or "Lottich isn't," on every topic here, and I say this as a member of Team Lottich Isn't. Can we all just agree with the returning roster, incoming freshmen, and experienced  transfers that next year is THE year where we find out if he's the guy or not?

No one is singing Matt's praises and riling the naysayers. These discussions begin with a small number of Matt haters blaming him for every development, siding without exception with the quitters, taking their word as gospel, accusing him for being in over his head, running the wrong offense, promoting the claims of some 18-year-old somewhere who said Matt can't relate to the players, that the players don't like him, blah, blah, blah. Not one of these people has the slightest clue whether any of it is true, but like 10 year olds think it must be so because otherwise why would players be leaving the program. This  nonsense is projected on this board on a daily basis for the world to see - friends, foes, recruits, players families, everyone. They do this knowing full well that Matt is not in a position to tell his side of the story or set the record straight. It's cowardly, unfair, and irresponsible, but it seems to be the order of the day on forums where people operate in anonymity. Others of us see this for what it is and aren't willing for these people to go unchecked and mislead everyone who follows this board that these are the prevailing beliefs of Crusader fans when they're not. When the incessant critics knock off their crap, no one will need to set the record straight. It's that simple.

The perception  argument about the potential effect that these comments may or may not have on recruiting or overall feelings toward the university and the Valpo experience cuts both ways wh. Suppose everyone reacted to the news of a transfer in the manner that you and those who take a more optimistic view of things would find most in accordance with reality and be quick to call any kid who decides to transfer spoiled entitled emblematic of the ills of his generation disloyal questioning their motives or even whether their attitude is conducive to success in life all without knowing the reasons behind their transfer all of which I have seen in some form or fashion insinuated by posters more keen to take Matt's side on things. Does this language seem responsible to you? Might that language be perhaps a little unfair? How would you feel as a player to have to read some of these posts about guys who have transferred? Sit down shut up don't question anything or voice concerns or we'll call you every name under the sun and question the truth of your reasons if and when you decide to leave and explain the potential reasons why? Yeah great. Sign me up. This is the fanbase I want to play for.


I am well-aware that this cuts both ways. People undermining Lottich and wanting the university to invest more in the program and questioning the school's commitment to success in basketball might have a negative effect on recruits and potential recruits. But, those who have transferred know far more about what Matt is like as a coach how he treats them and other players how he conducts himself whether his offensive and defensive schemes or gameplanning are up to snuff  and everything else than any of us on either side of the argument. Like it or not, being a Lottich defender doesn't inherently make one the fount of all wisdom and when posters go around bashing players and questioning players without acknowledging even the faintest possibility that maybe the coaching staff had some influence on why a given recruit decided to transfer that likewise is an opinion that cannot go unchecked and unchallenged lest it be incorrectly seen as the prevailing belief of the fanbase. In a strange way, the optimists and the pessimists need each other so that others might see the truth even if we who are more or less set in our opinions on either side refuse to or are unable to see it.


I reiterate, When somebody who is getting minutes and given every chance to contribute and by most accounts is reasonably successful decides "I'm outta here," it raises some questions especially when they didn't transfer up to a bigger program (Clay) or seemed perfect for the University (JO). It should also be pointed out that those who take the more optimistic view also operate within the realm of conjecture and at best an incomplete view of the facts. It's likely that the truth is messy and somewhere between the poles of abject negativity and positivity. And how do you suppose our fanbase is perceived when those who disagree with certain views suggest that a person who holds those views be medicated (not your words but those of another poster) or act like 10 year olds? (Your words just now)? That sort of messaging betrays and belies your stated goal of promoting a family ethos among the fanbase and program and sends the very message of disunity and instability that you are trying to prevent or ignore. Unfortunately, the facts are what they are: Yes, in this climate where transfers are more frequent recruiting and team building have become harder and instability and uncertainty among the roster is increased. That does not fully explain or excuse however the amount and degree of turnover we have experienced in the Lottich era. We have stars key contributors and guys playing heavy minutes saying thanks but no thanks. We have a kid who should have been tailor made for Valpo (JO he went to a Lutheran High School for Christ's Sake) decide to leave after ONE SEASON. We had our minutes leader who also happens to be our second leading scorer leading rebounder and second in assists transfer within our conference. It's possible it could have been to be closer to home but that doesn't really wash because SIU Bradley Illinois State Indiana State and Evansville are all closer to his hometown than Missouri State is.


Even if we can believe the argument that we have recruited to accommodate the loss of Clay (and it can certainly be argued that that is true) it is unlikely that losing Clay will result in more wins in the short run even with his offensive limitations. Yes, we should want people who want to be here, but when we are losing so many players even key contributors and have had 5+ transfers in two of the last three seasons that suggests and issue that goes beyond loyalty entitlement and speaks to a need to examine the culture (or lack thereof perhaps?) within the program. I don't remember seeing many other programs have to completely overhaul their roster twice in three years due to transfer and never due to graduation or a coach's departure. No question the Lottich era has been fraught with adversity and difficult circumstances maybe even some bad luck. Yes, it's certainly a tough climate Matt is recruiting and coaching in but I think it's fair to wonder if perhaps he is creating some of his own problems.  At this point I believe that serious questions and concern about the direction and leadership of the program are more than fair and totally warranted. It's not pedantic or controversial or disloyal to voice these concerns.


Am I a bit harsh and forceful in my criticisms? Perhaps. Should I moderate my tone a little bit? Maybe. But that doesn't mean I'm totally out of step with reality or "siding with the quitters." Unfortunately, your attempt to "set the record straight" as you put it is plagued and beset by the very same slanted misperceptions you were attempting to correct, albeit from a different side of the issue. I might be wrong especially since as you stated Matt is limited in his ability to give his side of the story to give us a fuller and more accurate reflection of the record and I readily believe that it may indeed be the case that I am wrong but that doesn't make you right or innocent of some of the very charges you have laid at the feet of the Lottich detractors. 

[vu72]

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate,

To be fair, seven is NOT like seven transferring from Indiana State or Green Bay.  We lost one walk-on, one Senior, one fifth year Senior who left the team mid-season and one 100% bench player. So three is a fair number and well within the norm during this seismic shift.

[VUSERF]

Negativity or positivity regarding the program should not be the issue here. What we should be more concerned with is how we are treating each other on this board when other posters say things we do not agree with.

I enjoy reading both the positive and negative posts here, because they help me see both perspectives on the state of the program. What I hate as a member of this community are posters responding so negatively towards one another.

We are all here because of our connection to this university.

I have been an active reader of this board since 2014. I only joined this year to post because of my concern for the direction of the program outweighed my distaste of social media. Someone involved on this board for 10 minutes or 10 years should  not be how we judge their connection to the university or the relevance of their opinion.

[JBC1824]

I'm also getting tired of the "Lottich is," or "Lottich isn't," on every topic here, and I say this as a member of Team Lottich Isn't. Can we all just agree with the returning roster, incoming freshmen, and experienced  transfers that next year is THE year where we find out if he's the guy or not?

No one is singing Matt's praises and riling the naysayers. These discussions begin with a small number of Matt haters blaming him for every development, siding without exception with the quitters, taking their word as gospel, accusing him for being in over his head, running the wrong offense, promoting the claims of some 18-year-old somewhere who said Matt can't relate to the players, that the players don't like him, blah, blah, blah. Not one of these people has the slightest clue whether any of it is true, but like 10 year olds think it must be so because otherwise why would players be leaving the program. This  nonsense is projected on this board on a daily basis for the world to see - friends, foes, recruits, players families, everyone. They do this knowing full well that Matt is not in a position to tell his side of the story or set the record straight. It's cowardly, unfair, and irresponsible, but it seems to be the order of the day on forums where people operate in anonymity. Others of us see this for what it is and aren't willing for these people to go unchecked and mislead everyone who follows this board that these are the prevailing beliefs of Crusader fans when they're not. When the incessant critics knock off their crap, no one will need to set the record straight. It's that simple.

I respect other posters calls for restraint and decency. However, I will not not be living up to them on this occasion....

WH now appears to be having a minor meltdown because of all the mean things posters have had to say about Matt Lottich and the current state of the bball program.

But who is responsible for developments related to the mens bball program if not its head coach?

According to WH, if Matt were to tell "his side of the story," he would be "setting the record straight." But when a player tells his side of the story, he should be mocked and suffer character defamation....

This is called hypocrisy.

In a variety of ways some of this forum's posters have said Matt Lottich is a bad basketball coach, and because of this these posters are "cowards," being "unfair," and even "irresposible?" Give me a break.

Matt Lottich sucks. I don't give a damn what his side of the story is as to why he cannot assemble a competative roster. Furthermore, you seem to be representing his side of the argument quite doggedly. But you cannot reasonably expect others to pretend the coach here is good simply because you choose to do so.

Do you really consider yourself to have been "checking" people? Apparently you've been turd polishing your own takes inside of your head, too.

There is also no longer any such thing as a Valparaiso "Crusader" fan.

Keep "setting the record straight," you turd polisher you.

[JBC1824]

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate,

To be fair, seven is NOT like seven transferring from Indiana State or Green Bay.  We lost one walk-on, one Senior, one fifth year Senior who left the team mid-season and one 100% bench player. So three is a fair number and well within the norm during this seismic shift.

A brief statement of fact: seven players on the 2020-2021 Valpo mens bball team have decided to transfer this offseason in order to play bball for another school next season.

Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would also challenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.

[wh]

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate,

To be fair, seven is NOT like seven transferring from Indiana State or Green Bay.  We lost one walk-on, one Senior, one fifth year Senior who left the team mid-season and one 100% bench player. So three is a fair number and well within the norm during this seismic shift.

A brief statement of fact: seven players on the 2020-2021 Valpo mens bball team have decided to transfer this offseason in order to play bball for another school next season.

Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would also challenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.

I think we've heard this about 50 times before, said in 50 different ways. Thank you for beating a dead horse.

[JBC1824]

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate,

To be fair, seven is NOT like seven transferring from Indiana State or Green Bay.  We lost one walk-on, one Senior, one fifth year Senior who left the team mid-season and one 100% bench player. So three is a fair number and well within the norm during this seismic shift.

A brief statement of fact: seven players on the 2020-2021 Valpo mens bball team have decided to transfer this offseason in order to play bball for another school next season.

Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would also challenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.

I think we've heard this about 50 times before, said in 50 different ways. Thank you for beating a dead horse.

When WH cannot polish a turd, he doesnt want to hear about it.

[VUGrad1314]

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate,

To be fair, seven is NOT like seven transferring from Indiana State or Green Bay.  We lost one walk-on, one Senior, one fifth year Senior who left the team mid-season and one 100% bench player. So three is a fair number and well within the norm during this seismic shift.

A brief statement of fact: seven players on the 2020-2021 Valpo mens bball team have decided to transfer this offseason in order to play bball for another school next season.

Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would also challenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.

I think we've heard this about 50 times before, said in 50 different ways. Thank you for beating a dead horse.

I just hope in a few years we're not worried that other teams are beating a dead program. We need to show life and more importantly keep our players around this year. If we can do that, if we can finish in the top 4-6 and not lose any significant transfers so that it's easy to see a path to becoming consistently competitive you would see a different tenor to my posts. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. I said if we could avoid Thursday I would consider it a successful season. We did. And I was all set to be excited for the future. We had the building blocks in place had recovered decently from JFL's departure and another seemingly strong class coming in. Now losing Clay and (especially given the players we've recruited) JO there are a lot of concerns as to whether we're going backwards again. I am very concerned that we will be a Thursday team again this year unless this incoming freshman class is as good as advertised. Again I hope I eat all of these words and can get excited that success is just around the corner but I just don't see the path right now and I just don't feel like Lottich is the person who can get us on that path. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Prove me wrong Matt. Prove me wrong and build this program into a consistent winner at the MVC level and you won't find a more ardent supporter than me. It's not personal and has nothing to do with you or who you are. I just frankly don't think you can do it. 

[vu72]

and not lose any significant transfers

Apparently you've missed that fact that now over 1300 players have transferred which are effecting EVERY team Big 10 or otherwise. If simply is part of the future and if the coach does a good job of developing a player then there is all the more reason why that said player is movin on up.  It is just part of reality.  Not automatically on the coach.  Duke has transfers, Baylor has transfers, GCU has transfers.  Get the picture?

[VUGrad1314]

and not lose any significant transfers

Apparently you've missed that fact that now over 1300 players have transferred which are effecting EVERY team Big 10 or otherwise. If simply is part of the future and if the coach does a good job of developing a player then there is all the more reason why that said player is movin on up.  It is just part of reality.  Not automatically on the coach.  Duke has transfers, Baylor has transfers, GCU has transfers.  Get the picture?

How many of those teams have had the following happen t0 them over the past 3 years?


Have had to turn over the entire roster.. (5+ transfers). Twice...


Lost their leading scorer and rebounder all three years...


Have lost at least one player to a conference rival...


It was easy to accept or at least understand the rash of transfers two offseasons ago because


1. Most of those kids transferred up


2. There were legitimate culture questions that made it fairly easy to give Matt the benefit of the doubt


3. Some of these (I believe) were Bryce's recruits


It was easy to accept or at least understand JFL's departure because...


1. He was moving closer to home and


2. He transferred up


This wave of transfers is particularly disconcerting because:


1. These are all unequivocally Matt's players who  were recruited to play for Matt


2. Not a single one of these players has transferred up (pending Ognacevic and your perception of Missouri State's program) suggesting multiple recruiting whiffs by Matt


3. We lost a key contributor to a conference rival suggesting that we are perceived as being inferior to our new peers


4. We lost a kid who came to Valpo for non-basketball reasons because he didn't think enough of Matt as a coach or some other aspect of the program even after being recruited by him and getting to know him in High School. And we lost him after one season potentially to a team in a lesser conference.


Think about that: Clay would rather play alongside Mosley and Prim (assuming Prim comes back) meaning less shots and less scoring than potentially reprise his role as a leader at Valpo. Ognacevic who should have been a hand in glove fit for Valpo. That should have been a slam dunk recruit on which Matt could potentially start to rebuild the program and now he's gone after one season. We'll never truly know why but it seems to me that his perception of Matt Lottich played a role. I don't know how many more times or different ways I can say this: If you're content to just consider it part of the modern culture and not feel concerned about the direction of the program then I don't believe you're seeing the whole picture. This has to be the do or die year for Matt Lottich. We can't afford to continue to be mired in mediocrity for too much longer.

[vuny98]

A few points.

I don't think any of the Lottich supporters are saying he's not responsible at all for the departures. Of course he plays a role and he probably has driven a few players away. You don't think the same could be said about Izzo, or Krzyzewski or Knight or almost any coach? If we were winning at a high rate, people put up with it. If were not, especially in these times, kids leave. Lottich is young, still figuring it out and likely has an abrasive personality. Its not the best mix.

I think Clay going to Missouri State says more about him than it does Valpo, IMO. I believe he had his eyes set on a bigger conference, but I am to assume none came calling. So he made a lateral move, and probably in part because MoSt had history with him and knew what he was potentially capable of, and also knowing he wouldn't be needed to play a large offensive role on their team.

All this talk about JO being a perfect fit for Valpo is conjecture. He went to a Lutheren High School and faith is important to him = Perfect Fit. And don't get me wrong, maybe he is a great kid and maybe he was a perfect fit. But he also could be a selfish A-hole for all I know. The former is probably true, but we are all going on about how losing him is a clear sign that Lottich can't cut it. I'm not happy about losing him, I think it sucks, but sometimes people just don't work out. I will say I was not happy about JO's role on the team and games where he would shoot the lights out and then sit the bench the 2nd half was infuriating. And his comments do shed light on what is likely a real issue. But it is also one persons opinion and the posters on this board take it as fact (vs the opinion that it is) and couple it with the perfect fit argument to spin it into this huge red flag.

I said months ago, there are 5 players I did not want to lose but if we keep 3 of the 5 I am happy. We kept 3 of those 5, so I am still sticking with what I said and I am happy. Now I assumed Clay would leave and I would maybe have preferred JO stay vs Barret (If Barrett had not gotten hurt this may be different), but otherwise, Edwards and Krikke are clearly the leaders of the team. I think we reupped with some good transfers that can shoot the ball and I am very excited about the incoming Freshman. Regardless of what happens, next year we will lose another 4+ players to transfers and we will argue the same thing. I have no doubt about that.

None of this is to say I don't think there is an issue and that we should just ignore it or not complain about it. Lottich is far from perfect and he needs to get better if we want to win. But to WH's point, we should be more cognizant about what we say and how we say it. There is bashing and there is constructive criticism. I am as guilty as any of us about sometimes bashing (especially when it came to the play of certain players). And I probably give Lottich more leeway and forgiveness than I should. But I do think the program is making progress that we should be hopeful about. It's hard for me to advocate an overhaul and take the risk that we start from scratch when we are improving, albeit slowly.

[valpo95]

What are some facts we know? Players transfer all the time, the number of players entering the transfer portal is increasing, and players transfer for any number of reasons.

In the case of Donovan Clay, we don't know. Did he think that he should be getting more opportunities? Did he see himself like Joseph Yesufu, who averaged 9 minutes a game as a freshman and still only 23 minutes per game as a sophomore, then transferred to Kansas?

Missouri State is a good team, and depending on who comes back they could be very good next year. Perhaps some in his circle thought Clay would get offers to go to a Big 10 program, a Big 12 program, or even to SLU, and when it became clear those were not going to happen, Missouri State was the best option available that was somewhat close to home. Again, we just don't know.

Coaches get evaluated by wins and losses, and by running a program that positively represents their university. My *guess* is that we'll see where things are for Coach Lottich a year from now based on those dimensions.     

[valpopal]

All this talk about JO being a perfect fit for Valpo is conjecture. He went to a Lutheren High School and faith is important to him = Perfect Fit. And don't get me wrong, maybe he is a great kid and maybe he was a perfect fit. But he also could be a selfish A-hole for all I know. The former is probably true...

Yes, the former is true. As I have stated previously, I did get to know JO, and I will not reveal anything about private interactions, almost none concerning basketball anyway, so I haven't commented in detail on this, but my view is not based upon conjecture. I will merely say I consider him to be a fine young man that I'm sorry to see VU lose.

[crusader05]

I would just point out that a perfect fit for Valpo the University may not mean a perfect fit for the Valpo Basketball Team. It's easier to be a fit on a campus than it is to be a fit on a tightly controlled/small group on a campus. Most students have the ability to pick and choose who they associate with and how or to leave an org if it's not a culture fit for them. That's not the case for our athletes. Those not on scholarship or on partial scholarships who picked Valpo with the campus as a whole more in mine than some of our other athletes might find it easy/economical to quit the sport and immerse themselves in other places on campus but for those that choose Valpo with the idea of playing their preferred sport as the main focus for picking college/their college experience a fit on a team can matter more than an overall campus fit.

[valpo64]

 I would like to hear the comments from those who  seem to know all the facts and where to place blame for kids transferring from a school  comment on some of the other MVC schools such as Drake, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, even Loyola now and perhaps others who also either have lost or continue to lose players in recent years to the transfer portal.  Some of you must think that the coach at Drake should lose his job also, after all he lost the best big man in The  Valley last year then this year lost one of the best, maybe the best, point guard in the  league.

[wh]

I will be interested in learning where JO lands and what makes it the new perfect fit.

[bb33]

I do know for a fact that Clay was contacted by 2 SEC schools and 1 B10 school.  Contacted does not mean offered -- and considering he went to MSU, I would assume he didn't get the offers.  I think he thought he was going big time, and that didn't pan out.  MSU has a bigger budget and better facilities,.   But Valpo has things that are not easily replicated, especially at a public school -- which is why the posters on here are so passionate.

[Chairback]

We won 8 games last year. That is the only fact I care about.   

We can spin it on Lottich or the players and pontificate all day on it.  At some point a change has to happen.  Hopefully leadership at Valpo are having those discussions. 

I wouldn't be surprised if JO ends up in the Valley. Seems like the only whacky thing that hasn't happened.   Wouldn't that be something. 

[VUGrad1314]

I would like to hear the comments from those who  seem to know all the facts and where to place blame for kids transferring from a school  comment on some of the other MVC schools such as Drake, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, even Loyola now and perhaps others who also either have lost or continue to lose players in recent years to the transfer portal.  Some of you must think that the coach at Drake should lose his job also, after all he lost the best big man in The  Valley last year then this year lost one of the best, maybe the best, point guard in the  league.

I don't recall any of these teams having to turn over their entire roster. Illinois State is not a feather in the cap for your argument as that team has been mediocre for years to the point where even we have pretty consistent success against them. Pretty much that entire fanbase wants Muller gone. As for SIU, SIU lost Cook to Gonzaga. Not much they could have done about that. I don't recall them losing anyone else recently that really hurt them. Loyola lost some depth pieces but if the seniors come back they'll be more than fine and if not I have confidence that they will reload. That confidence could be misplaced but two Sweet 16s (and one final four both of which Valentine was on the bench for) in four years says a lot and kids will want to go there.


Now let's look at Drake... Drake lost Robbins to a school that had his uncle (I believe) on staff and Yesufu to Kansas in part because the seniors who played for DeVries think so much of him that they all want to come back. I don't know if a starting role would have been enough to keep Yesufu from Kansas but that loss while painful is not as crushing as one might think because of the overall nucleus still in place (at least for this year). Moreover they just added a 4 star recruit this offseason (granted it was DeVries's son). His son could have gone to Oregon Creighton or Iowa State and chose to play for his father in part because he also believes in him as a coach. Drake is a really bad comp to our situation and not good for your argument because DeVries assembled a patchwork roster (from players from our own backyard mostly I might add) and proceeded to win 20+ games 3 straight years finish in the top 2 of the MVC twice and make the postseason twice including winning a game in the NCAA Tournament. Matt has NEVER won 20 games with his own players nor has he finished higher than T-5th and has had only one .500 season. DeVries's WORST MVC mark is 8-10. We've only been better than that once under Lottich (9-9) Right now, he's a lesser version of what Mike Davis was at IU. If we were performing as well as Drake and still losing key contributors then I would say "Yeah I guess it's part of the culture" but we're not. There are problems that simple "Entitlement" or "generational cultural differences" simply can't explain and I don't believe it's wise to simply choose to ignore them just because it makes you feel better.

[wh]

I do know for a fact that Clay was contacted by 2 SEC schools and 1 B10 school.  Contacted does not mean offered -- and considering he went to MSU, I would assume he didn't get the offers.  I think he thought he was going big time, and that didn't pan out.  MSU has a bigger budget and better facilities,.   But Valpo has things that are not easily replicated, especially at a public school -- which is why the posters on here are so passionate.

We won 8 games last year. That is the only fact I care about.   

We can spin it on Lottich or the players and pontificate all day on it.  At some point a change has to happen.  Hopefully leadership at Valpo are having those discussions. 

I wouldn't be surprised if JO ends up in the Valley. Seems like the only whacky thing that hasn't happened.   Wouldn't that be something. 

I agree it's time to put up or shut up. With the possible exception of JO, there isn't 1 player who transferred out that was going to help get us there based on their current season stats. Blame it on bad recruiting/player development, blame it on them, or whatever suits your fancy. They were the definition of insanity. There's no doubt in my mind that we have finally transitioned to MVC-level talent. If Matt can't deliver the goods with this new bunch, he is going to become the definition of insanity a year from now.

[vu72]

So just for fun I checked the transfer portal to find out there are now 1317 in the portal and of those, 383 have found a new home.  Musical chairs indeed!  What is perhaps overlooked in all this is the fact that there are probably the same amount of kids on the D2 transfer portal.  Verbal Commits does not have a total but it looks as big as D1.  So given that clearly there are kids who played D2 who can contribute to a D1 team (we signed one already), Matt has about 1500 kids to evaluate!!  Fun stuff...

[valpotx]

It is now 1,325.  Liam Robbins now at Vanderbilt.

[JBC1824]

A few points.

I don't think any of the Lottich supporters are saying he's not responsible at all for the departures. Of course he plays a role and he probably has driven a few players away. You don't think the same could be said about Izzo, or Krzyzewski or Knight or almost any coach? If we were winning at a high rate, people put up with it. If were not, especially in these times, kids leave. Lottich is young, still figuring it out and likely has an abrasive personality. Its not the best mix.

I think Clay going to Missouri State says more about him than it does Valpo, IMO. I believe he had his eyes set on a bigger conference, but I am to assume none came calling. So he made a lateral move, and probably in part because MoSt had history with him and knew what he was potentially capable of, and also knowing he wouldn't be needed to play a large offensive role on their team.

All this talk about JO being a perfect fit for Valpo is conjecture. He went to a Lutheren High School and faith is important to him = Perfect Fit. And don't get me wrong, maybe he is a great kid and maybe he was a perfect fit. But he also could be a selfish A-hole for all I know. The former is probably true, but we are all going on about how losing him is a clear sign that Lottich can't cut it. I'm not happy about losing him, I think it sucks, but sometimes people just don't work out. I will say I was not happy about JO's role on the team and games where he would shoot the lights out and then sit the bench the 2nd half was infuriating. And his comments do shed light on what is likely a real issue. But it is also one persons opinion and the posters on this board take it as fact (vs the opinion that it is) and couple it with the perfect fit argument to spin it into this huge red flag.

I said months ago, there are 5 players I did not want to lose but if we keep 3 of the 5 I am happy. We kept 3 of those 5, so I am still sticking with what I said and I am happy. Now I assumed Clay would leave and I would maybe have preferred JO stay vs Barret (If Barrett had not gotten hurt this may be different), but otherwise, Edwards and Krikke are clearly the leaders of the team. I think we reupped with some good transfers that can shoot the ball and I am very excited about the incoming Freshman. Regardless of what happens, next year we will lose another 4+ players to transfers and we will argue the same thing. I have no doubt about that.

None of this is to say I don't think there is an issue and that we should just ignore it or not complain about it. Lottich is far from perfect and he needs to get better if we want to win. But to WH's point, we should be more cognizant about what we say and how we say it. There is bashing and there is constructive criticism. I am as guilty as any of us about sometimes bashing (especially when it came to the play of certain players). And I probably give Lottich more leeway and forgiveness than I should. But I do think the program is making progress that we should be hopeful about. It's hard for me to advocate an overhaul and take the risk that we start from scratch when we are improving, albeit slowly.

The issue with the transfers is that Valpo has possibly lost more players to transfer than any other program in the entire country during the past five years. This clearly indicates there is a Valpo-specific problem as it relates to transfers. Simply because something happens on a lesser scale elsewhere, and amongst even the best programs, this does not excuse it happening here at quite possibly the highest rate in all of college bball. Your argument completely ignores the extent to which this has been an issue here as compared to these succesful programs or other programs generally.

For instance, if were were talking about the murder rate in cities across the globe, and we were residents of Tijuana, Mexico (the city with the highest murder rate in the world according to some sources), we as Tijuana residents would not say to ourselves, "sure there are a lot of murders here in Tijuana, but what's the big fuss over? Even the safest cities in the world have some murders." This is however the exact logic you're employing.

Yes, if we were winning all of us would gladly put up with the high transfer rate. But we are not winning.

Nearly everything you had to say about the situation involving Clay is itself conjecture, which is the exact basis on which you dismiss others' suggestions that JO was a perfect fit here at Valpo. Be consistent with your standards about what makes for a good argument.

Personally, I have given no indication I believe JO's word as fact. However, I have said and still believe it is more likely than not there is some truth to what he had to say. The public criticism of the coach has also not come from just JO; Clay and his family as well as Robinson made their feelings known publicly. What they all have said taken as a whole does suggest there is a larger issue. It's the whole, "when there's smoke, there's fire" line of thinking. And if you then consider all of this public criticism in the context of us losing more transfers than likely any other program in the country during Lottich's tenure, then yes, this is something of a red flag.

Simply because we happened to retain some of players you like this go 'round does not mean the rate of players transfering away from Valpo is not still a problem. If we continue to lose transfers at this rate we will eventually lose too many players we all like.

Your arguments do seem to suggest we ignore there is problem and not complain about it.

I'm sorry but I will not pretend things are any better than they are at a given time.

We are definitionally not making progress or improving. We had our worst overall record since joining the MVC and second worst conference record this past season.

[JBC1824]

What are some facts we know? Players transfer all the time, the number of players entering the transfer portal is increasing, and players transfer for any number of reasons.

In the case of Donovan Clay, we don't know. Did he think that he should be getting more opportunities? Did he see himself like Joseph Yesufu, who averaged 9 minutes a game as a freshman and still only 23 minutes per game as a sophomore, then transferred to Kansas?

Missouri State is a good team, and depending on who comes back they could be very good next year. Perhaps some in his circle thought Clay would get offers to go to a Big 10 program, a Big 12 program, or even to SLU, and when it became clear those were not going to happen, Missouri State was the best option available that was somewhat close to home. Again, we just don't know.

Coaches get evaluated by wins and losses, and by running a program that positively represents their university. My *guess* is that we'll see where things are for Coach Lottich a year from now based on those dimensions.     

Again, the rate at which Valpo loses players to transfer as compared with the other 350 or so D1 college bball programs in the country matters. Unfortunately, we have very likely lost more transfers than anyone else since Lottic became our head coach.

We do know Clay and his family must have vehemently disliked the head coach. Of course one player and his family's feelings are not a big deal, but again, other players have also been publicly critical. Thus a hard look at the situation is warranted -- particularly in light of the rate at which we're losing these transfers.

But if we evaluate Lottich based on those dimensions and on his track record up until this point, how should we characterize the job he has done? To decide we should begin evaluating him next year as opposed to now or any other time is somewhat arbitrary. I understand however you seem to want to give him another year before coming to any conclusions, and that is fair.