Transfers

[mj]

These comments from him are really embarrassing and leave me with a bad perspective of Lottich. This coupled with Nick Robinsons decisions for leaving have soured me against Lottich's leadership. I have not been sold sold on his coaching ability, so this only adds to my distaste of his impact on the program.

For me, it's not the fact that we have a lot of transfers but it's the circumstances surrounding Robinson and J.O. How many teams have two players go to the media in order to explain their decision?

[VUSERF]

Just came across this, thought it was interesting:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/university-of-cincinnati/2021/03/26/cincinnati-basketball-uc-ad-cunningham-announces-program-review/7012496002/

[valpo64]

It amazes me that people are taking the words of a disgruntled transfer as one who has all the answers to a particular team's problem, coaching, etc.  I believe that the words coming from a 19 or 20 year old athlete should not be used to pronounce judgement on a particular situation without further evaluation.  These good young athletes usually value themselves highly and often need to think before opening up their mouths.  This transfer thing is getting waaaay out of hand as we all know.  The number of players entering the portal is astounding, including several teams in the Valley last year and the number of transfers on some teams this year including both large majors and mid-majors.  Isn't it something that Sackey never had a negative word concerning Valpo, including the coaches and team members even as he entered the portal.  If anyone perhaps should be upset it would be him, even though the reduction in his playing time was justified.  And he has been around for 3 years!  I would value his comments much more than JO's.  Yet some take the word of a freshman transfer as "gospel".  Some people appear to know alot about Matt Lottich but probably know little or nothing about the make-up of JO.  Yet some have already pronounced judgement.  Let's be honest, between the Covid thing and screwed up schedule both on and off the floor this past season, along with the ridiculous transfer rule, this past year has been a mess.  Some need to  engage their brain before opening their mouth, including young college basketball players and posters on this blog.  Let's get the facts first!

[oklahomamick]

Those of you who say "I'm not gong to take the words from a disgruntled 20 year old"

Those of you who say "I'm not worried, because he was just a roll player at best"

Gentleman, there is a problem.  Too many people leaving the program (players and coaches) Coaching staff has had a large turnover since ML took over too.  Players are leaving, good, bad and roll players.

ML wasn't ready......

[valpopal]

some take the word of a freshman transfer as "gospel".  Some people appear to know alot about Matt Lottich but probably know little or nothing about the make-up of JO. 

I did get to know JO, and I will not reveal anything about private interactions, almost none concerning basketball anyway, so I haven't commented before on this, but I will merely say I consider him to be a fine young man that I'm sorry to see VU lose.

[VUGrad1314]

It amazes me that people are taking the words of a disgruntled transfer as one who has all the answers to a particular team's problem, coaching, etc.  I believe that the words coming from a 19 or 20 year old athlete should not be used to pronounce judgement on a particular situation without further evaluation.  These good young athletes usually value themselves highly and often need to think before opening up their mouths.  This transfer thing is getting waaaay out of hand as we all know.  The number of players entering the portal is astounding, including several teams in the Valley last year and the number of transfers on some teams this year including both large majors and mid-majors.  Isn't it something that Sackey never had a negative word concerning Valpo, including the coaches and team members even as he entered the portal.  If anyone perhaps should be upset it would be him, even though the reduction in his playing time was justified.  And he has been around for 3 years!  I would value his comments much more than JO's.  Yet some take the word of a freshman transfer as "gospel".  Some people appear to know alot about Matt Lottich but probably know little or nothing about the make-up of JO.  Yet some have already pronounced judgement.  Let's be honest, between the Covid thing and screwed up schedule both on and off the floor this past season, along with the ridiculous transfer rule, this past year has been a mess.  Some need to  engage their brain before opening their mouth, including young college basketball players and posters on this blog.  Let's get the facts first!

Okay but how about the words of like 15-17 or so players who have left this program in the last three years? If we could get most or all of their comments would that be enough? I think the perspective of folks who have actually played for Matt Lottich (like  Golder JO Clay and JFL for instance all of whom have or have had family members vocally criticize Lottich) is worth a lot more than the perspective of any of us or anyone who has a vested interest (I.E. the administration and AD) in not admitting that the Lottich era has been a failure. If multiple productive players have transferred and have either themselves or through their families vocally criticized Lottich then the problem is probably Lottich whether we care to admit it or not.

[AB]

This is a direct quote from the Indiana State Basketball message board. Take this with a grain of salt cause we have no idea of the accuracy of this, but anyone can go to their message board and see that this was posted. Again take it as you will.

"Its getting hard to enjoy mid-major basketball when everybody transfers that's worth half a **** And it takes a 27-3 record with NO bad loses to be on the good side of the bubble. It's getting ridiculous.

as a side note, I work in valpo with some guys that know a player on Valpos team and their source says it's a complete divide in the VU locker room. No accountability, players show up 30 min late to required team events, back talk in practice, etc."

[valpotx]

These comments from him are really embarrassing and leave me with a bad perspective of Lottich. This coupled with Nick Robinsons decisions for leaving have soured me against Lottich's leadership. I have not been sold sold on his coaching ability, so this only adds to my distaste of his impact on the program.

For me, it's not the fact that we have a lot of transfers but it's the circumstances surrounding Robinson and J.O. How many teams have two players go to the media in order to explain their decision?

I have to believe that JO's hometown paper reached out to him, and not the other way around.  Nick legitimately went public on his own, however.  Even with that in mind, I am withholding judgment on Lottich, until we hear both sides of the stories, as it relates to Clay, JO, and Sackey. 

Clay is most likely because he wanted to be more like the JFL role, in a guard-focused position, but it was his own fault that they had to play him in multiple positions on offense, as he can't shoot!  Lottich has to turn lemons into lemonade, when a SG who can't shoot, is so athletic and still deserves playing time, so you have to play him anywhere to get some type of production. 

Sackey?  Couldn't buy a 3, layups were always a circus, and his speed worked against him, much of the time.  He sees the writing on the wall that his playing time was going to decline, and wants to position himself for some type of pro career elsewhere. 

JO will be the interesting one.  Again, if you were expecting some type of mass activities around faith, just by attending Valpo, you are going to be disappointed.  Players of all sports go out and party (guilty), people cuss during practices/games, and we don't sit around a campfire singing top Christian/Gospel music at all times.  He seems like a pretty straight-laced guy, and if he was hoping for experiences around his faith, it's going to be hard to get that at the D-1 level. 

[nkvu]

"The school wasn't what I thought it was". What in the world does that mean?  On it's face that statement would make you think that he thought given his "faith" emphasis that the school didn't emphasize the Lutheran connection enough. Yet later, he is talking about how nice it would be to play for Green Bay (a state school with how many transfers out?) or Milwaukee, another state (non Lutheran) school. Even when I was at Valpo 50 years ago yes the university was Lutheran affiliated but they didn't jam it down your throat.  You could be as "Lutheran" as you wanted to be, but nobody took attendance at chapel services. So unless JO wants to go to a southern evangelical (non Lutheran) school somewhere, what's left?  A non D1 school like St. Olaf's?  They have a great choral music program but I haven't heard that JO is a singer. Or maybe the faith stuff is BS and it's all team and coaching stuff.  Maybe that's what the university should look into.

[vu72]

I think part of it, and maybe a lot of it, is based on the lack of respect shown to teammates/coaches that set him off.  Coming from a small Lutheran High School, my guess is that his experiences were WAY different than what he saw at Valpo dealing with D1 athletes from a variety of backgrounds.  Who knows.

[valpopal]

"The school wasn't what I thought it was". What in the world does that mean?  On it's face that statement would make you think that he thought given his "faith" emphasis that the school didn't emphasize the Lutheran connection enough. Yet later, he is talking about how nice it would be to play for Green Bay (a state school with how many transfers out?) or Milwaukee, another state (non Lutheran) school. Even when I was at Valpo 50 years ago yes the university was Lutheran affiliated but they didn't jam it down your throat.  You could be as "Lutheran" as you wanted to be, but nobody took attendance at chapel services. So unless JO wants to go to a southern evangelical (non Lutheran) school somewhere, what's left?  A non D1 school like St. Olaf's?  They have a great choral music program but I haven't heard that JO is a singer. Or maybe the faith stuff is BS and it's all team and coaching stuff.  Maybe that's what the university should look into.

Quote from Chitwood:
"I think some people are misinterpreting the article here. It says he chose the school because of faith, but that sometimes faith is not enough. This seems to imply it was not a religious issue, but was unrelated to religion."


Quote from VU Basketball page:
"High school coach Nick Verhagen said Ognacevic's work ethic was unlike anyone he'd ever seen except for Sam Dekker."


Quote from JO:
"Players weren't held responsible like I expected them to be, got away with a lot."

[Just Sayin]

These comments from him are really embarrassing and leave me with a bad perspective of Lottich. This coupled with Nick Robinsons decisions for leaving have soured me against Lottich's leadership. I have not been sold sold on his coaching ability, so this only adds to my distaste of his impact on the program.

For me, it's not the fact that we have a lot of transfers but it's the circumstances surrounding Robinson and J.O. How many teams have two players go to the media in order to explain their decision?

He [JO] seems like a pretty straight-laced guy, and if he was hoping for experiences around his faith, it's going to be hard to get that at the D-1 level.

To mention a few, he'll get that at:

Grand Canyon
Liberty
Abilene Christian University

[JD24]

"The school wasn't what I thought it was". What in the world does that mean?  On it's face that statement would make you think that he thought given his "faith" emphasis that the school didn't emphasize the Lutheran connection enough. Yet later, he is talking about how nice it would be to play for Green Bay (a state school with how many transfers out?) or Milwaukee, another state (non Lutheran) school. Even when I was at Valpo 50 years ago yes the university was Lutheran affiliated but they didn't jam it down your throat.  You could be as "Lutheran" as you wanted to be, but nobody took attendance at chapel services. So unless JO wants to go to a southern evangelical (non Lutheran) school somewhere, what's left?  A non D1 school like St. Olaf's?  They have a great choral music program but I haven't heard that JO is a singer. Or maybe the faith stuff is BS and it's all team and coaching stuff.  Maybe that's what the university should look into.

Quote from Chitwood: "I think some people are misinterpreting the article here. It says he chose the school because of faith, but that sometimes faith is not enough. This seems to imply it was not a religious issue, but was unrelated to religion." Quote from VU Basketball page: "High school coach Nick Verhagen said Ognacevic's work ethic was unlike anyone he'd ever seen except for Sam Dekker." Quote from JO: "Players weren't held responsible like I expected them to be, got away with a lot."

As mentioned above, you can have players transferring for completely different interpretations of the same issue. These are kids and many (not necessarily JO) are often supported by helicopter parents who will believe and act on anything the kid says which is all sourced in youth sports.
For instance, Robinson complained that he wasn't supported and essentially told he needed to show up, practice and play. He didn't want to....whether for a legit reason or not....left and complained about it. JO says the players weren't held responsible like he expected them to be. He left and complained about it.

So which is it? Maybe there's inconsistency here but, again, we're dealing with kids who if they don't get the extra three musketeers bar they were expecting one day will declare that they are transferring in this current atmosphere.

Should it be looked into? Sure.

[valpotx]

"The school wasn't what I thought it was". What in the world does that mean?  On it's face that statement would make you think that he thought given his "faith" emphasis that the school didn't emphasize the Lutheran connection enough. Yet later, he is talking about how nice it would be to play for Green Bay (a state school with how many transfers out?) or Milwaukee, another state (non Lutheran) school. Even when I was at Valpo 50 years ago yes the university was Lutheran affiliated but they didn't jam it down your throat.  You could be as "Lutheran" as you wanted to be, but nobody took attendance at chapel services. So unless JO wants to go to a southern evangelical (non Lutheran) school somewhere, what's left?  A non D1 school like St. Olaf's?  They have a great choral music program but I haven't heard that JO is a singer. Or maybe the faith stuff is BS and it's all team and coaching stuff.  Maybe that's what the university should look into.

He still wouldn't get that experience at St. Olaf.  Both of my parents graduated from there, as well as one of my cousins.  You are not required to conduct religious activity, any more than what I did at Valpo.

[usc4valpo]

These are also young people making decisions and thinking that they know the world, for which they certainly do not. I and all of us can say the same when we were that age, but maybe not to the magnitude of the entitlement they require.

It's sad that these guys cannot leave gracefully, not fully understand the circumstances in their words, and throw people and programs under the bus. Their words can haunt them in their future endeavors whatever they are.

[vok22]

Why are we bashing these kids right now?  We have no idea what is going on inside of that locker room. They do.

[valpopal]

These are also young people making decisions and thinking that they know the world, for which they certainly do not. I and all of us can say the same when we were that age, but maybe not to the magnitude of the entitlement they require.

It's sad that these guys cannot leave gracefully, not fully understand the circumstances in their words, and throw people and programs under the bus. Their words can haunt them in their future endeavors whatever they are.

It seems odd to me that there are numerous posts on this board seeking to find out why so many players are leaving the program or speculating about their motives; however, when a player offers an explanation, it is met with antagonism and skepticism by some. I think the more reasonable route would be asking for free speech to take place all around. A reporter or university administrator could question the coaches about the recent amount of transfers or specific players' public statements following departure and request a public response.

[Just Sayin]

Why are we bashing these kids right now?  We have no idea what is going on inside of that locker room. They do.

Because Lottich supporters would rather not know the truth. 

[valpo95]

Why are we bashing these kids right now?  We have no idea what is going on inside of that locker room. They do.

Because Lottich supporters would rather not know the truth. 

That's an unnecessary cheap shot - kids transfer all the time for any number of reasons.

Of course, winning league titles and making the NCAAs reduce the likelihood of transferring. Yet I'm sure VU's athletic director is a lot closer to the situation than anyone on this board, and he's the one who has to make decisions about the future of every head coach.

That doesn't mean we don't want the truth, or are blindly supporting the coach. We all want to see long-term improvement, and at some point everyone knows that consistent 0.500 or below performance will get any MBB coach fired. Yet look at Porter Moser's tenure at Loyola - he has gone from a poor to a mediocre to an excellent record and suddenly he's the hot coaching candidate for destination programs.

[valpotx]

Why are we bashing these kids right now?  We have no idea what is going on inside of that locker room. They do.

Because Lottich supporters would rather not know the truth. 

I would say the same for the #FireLottich crowd.  You are just looking at it from a high level, and because you don't like our record, assuming that it has to be ML.  As another poster mentioned, let's see what happens after each officially transfers, and if we get additional information from each situation.  I only care about learning more about Clay, Sackey, and JO, and I am sure that we will hear about it in the coming weeks/months.

[oklahomamick]

.500 record or below - check
several players transfer, role, good and bad - check
coaching staff turnover every other year - check

Repeat.

No there's nothing wrong here....

[wh]

JO's public comments in that article really leave me with little to no faith in Lottich and Co.

These comments from him are really embarrassing and leave me with a bad perspective of Lottich.

JO violated the equivalent of a basic employer/employee convention that you simply don't badmouth a former employer in a public forum or a job interview, unless there are extremely extenuating circumstances (something like racial discrimination).

Why? Because it raises questions in prospective employer's minds that you don't want there. Questions like:

• What's the other side of this story?
• Is this person impossible to please?
• Do they not have reasonable expectations of their manager?
• Will they be a pain in the neck to have on staff?
• Are they going to quit here too the first time something happens that they don't like?
• Are they going to be badmouthing me someday too?
• Why doesn't this person realize that you don't say things like that? Is what they "told out of school" reflective of their overall maturity?

JO will find a place, but unquestionably he committed an unforced error that serves no one's best interests.

[Pgmado]

Figured I'd chime in here since there's enough veiled shots at "maybe a reporter could..."

I called JO the day he went in the portal. He asked for a couple of days because he was busy, but confirmed name was in the portal. I waited a couple of days, I reached out again. He asked if we could talk the next day. Sure. The story in local paper comes out that night.

I reach out the next morning. He says we'll touch base later in the day. He messages as I'm walking into a wedding. We agreed to talk yesterday.

We spoke and he completely walked back the comments he made in his local paper. A lot of "i don't want to get into it," and "I'm very grateful for the coaches and my entire experience at Valpo." I asked him to elaborate on some of the comments. He said he would rather not. I pressed one more time and that was it.

I've got a big transfer data story coming out later this week and I'm saving the quotes for that.

Here is my take. Some of these guys are leaving because they don't like Lottich. It should be noted that some of these guys are staying because the like Lottich. Some of these guys are leaving because this wasn't what they signed up for. Some of these guys are leaving because they have vastly different perceptions of their talent/role than the coaches do. I'm sure that could be said for transfers all over the place. Some of these guys are transferring because they are seniors and they were set to leave anyway.

[valpopal]

Figured I'd chime in here since there's enough veiled shots at "maybe a reporter could..."

I called JO the day he went in the portal. He asked for a couple of days because he was busy, but confirmed name was in the portal. I waited a couple of days, I reached out again. He asked if we could talk the next day. Sure. The story in local paper comes out that night.

I reach out the next morning. He says we'll touch base later in the day. He messages as I'm walking into a wedding. We agreed to talk yesterday.

We spoke and he completely walked back the comments he made in his local paper. A lot of "i don't want to get into it," and "I'm very grateful for the coaches and my entire experience at Valpo." I asked him to elaborate on some of the comments. He said he would rather not. I pressed one more time and that was it.

I've got a big transfer data story coming out later this week and I'm saving the quotes for that.

Here is my take. Some of these guys are leaving because they don't like Lottich. It should be noted that some of these guys are staying because the like Lottich. Some of these guys are leaving because this wasn't what they signed up for. Some of these guys are leaving because they have vastly different perceptions of their talent/role than the coaches do. I'm sure that could be said for transfers all over the place. Some of these guys are transferring because they are seniors and they were set to leave anyway.

Speaking of "veiled shots": I'll assume this was partially directed at my comment.   

However, I was not addressing questioning a player, but the coach, and I specified "a reporter or university administrator" could ask for a public response: "It seems odd to me that there are numerous posts on this board seeking to find out why so many players are leaving the program or speculating about their motives; however, when a player offers an explanation, it is met with antagonism and skepticism by some. I think the more reasonable route would be asking for free speech to take place all around. A reporter or university administrator could question the coaches about the recent amount of transfers or specific players' public statements following departure and request a public response."

Essentially, I was requesting obtaining a response from Lottich about these recent and more significant developments the way he replied when asked about Robinson's remarks, though quotes from Lottich didn't seem to deny Robinson's take on the situation. 

[NativeCheesehead]

When it comes to Lottich I believe we are officially in the same mode as most politically minded folks out there.

Most of us have made up our minds, which means we're only going to seek out information that confirms our beliefs, ignore any contradictory evidence, and personally attack those that disagree with us.