Transfers

[VUGrad1314]

Should he have stopped playing Clay altogether?  You can't force someone to care...

No but he could have cut his minutes when he saw him disengaging to send the message that not even the core players can afford to slack off. If that was the takeaway Ognacevic received that certain players got treated with kid gloves and it cost us his services then the takeaway is that Lottich should have done more to hold players who were giving less effort accountable. Not taking away Clay's minutes entirely but to do enough to show that that won't be tolerated. Again I am operating from the assumption raised potentially by you that Lottich's inability to do this cost us both Clay and Ognacevic. If that's the case then it was a huge mistake that Matt needs to learn from and I hope he does.

[usc4valpo]

If Clay is an engineering student, why transfer to Missouri State? Honestly, the quality of education is better at Valpo.

I know, he's 20, and does not have priorities straight.

[humbleopinion]

If Clay is an engineering student, why transfer to Missouri State? Honestly, the quality of education is better at Valpo.

I know, he's 20, and does not have priorities straight.

And if he wants player development, Mo St seems to be an odd choice.  The Bears seem to consistently underperform given their talent.

[humbleopinion]

It is close to his home, this is not a total surprise.  If he would have landed at SLU, that would have also not surprised me.  Don't exercise any bar to him playing, as that just gives him an extra year to mature/improve, and come back at us with even more vengeance in mind.  Let him play the next 2 seasons.  This does not scare me in the least, and I think that we have improved with the transfers that we are gaining/losing. 

Springfield is an hour closer to his home than Valpo, but it is still three and a half hours from Alton.  SLU would have been close.

[vu72]

so we will be a "young team" again

Not really.  If Zion comes backs we will have four five to six year Seniors plus Ben and Goodnews are Juniors and now Conner and Sheldon are Sophomores.  That is not a "young" team!

[vu72]

If Clay is an engineering student, why transfer to Missouri State? Honestly, the quality of education is better at Valpo.

I know, he's 20, and does not have priorities straight.

Because he was a Sports Management Student not Engineering.  Emil is the Engineering student.

[valpo64]

If Clay had a "screw you, VU" attitude, that is his problem.  It is time for some to realize that just because a player(s) leaves a program it is not always the coach's fault.  If that were true  there sure are alot of D-1 coaches that are lousy and don't deserve the job they have.  I wonder if other boards, especially those in the MVC, are seeing the same comments as often expressed on this board proclaiming their coach should be gone because of the transfer epidemic.  Granted there are exceptions (Cincinnati).  Many of these kids, and I mean kids,  need to grow up and realize they cannot have everything they want and when they want it and in some case perhaps they are not as good as they think they are.

[wh]

Should he have stopped playing Clay altogether?  You can't force someone to care...

No but he could have cut his minutes when he saw him disengaging to send the message that not even the core players can afford to slack off. If that was the takeaway Ognacevic received that certain players got treated with kid gloves and it cost us his services then the takeaway is that Lottich should have done more to hold players who were giving less effort accountable. Not taking away Clay's minutes entirely but to do enough to show that that won't be tolerated. Again I am operating from the assumption raised potentially by you that Lottich's inability to do this cost us both Clay and Ognacevic. If that's the case then it was a huge mistake that Matt needs to learn from and I hope he does.

I don't know whether to call this conjecture or confabulation, but you're making up facts and then debating people around them to make our coach look bad. We have no idea what JO was referring to with his irresponsible diatribe. All we know is JO's "truth," which may be far from THE truth.

[valpolaw]

I'm on the fence on whether Valpo should block Clay from playing immediately.  His move to Missouri State seems like such a lateral move, not one that I would personally make.  It seems to be the equivalent of switching to a competing employer for basically the same amount of pay, gonna make a lot of people mad and not bring much overall benefit in my opinion.  I'm not that old but the younger generation baffles me.   

The deciding factor for me on whether to block him from playing immediately would be what happened behind the scenes.  If he was the one always whining and not being held accountable, then I say block him.  If, however, it wasn't him and he had nothing to do with it, then I say let him play.  My gut tells me he was a whiner but maybe I'm wrong.  He seemed to have an off year and would simply go missing at times.  His dad was always whining in his tweets too.  Won't miss that.   

[elephtheria47]

I think he wanted bigger fish and they didn't come biting.

However, from strictly a basketball point, Missouri State is still slightly above Valpo and he still gets the familiarity of the MVC. MoSt has a $67m arena that just opened in 2008, spends $3.1m/yr on MBB (4th highest in MVC, vs 2.7m/yr by Valpo for 4th lowest), and average 4500-5100 attendance the last three seasons vs Valpos approx 2700.

Academically, I can't imagine MoSt is better but I didn't look that up. (Edited to reflect he is not an engineering student)

I'm not losing much sleep over him, but I am still disappointed in JO. Let him play. Valpo doesn't have anything to gain if they can force him to sit out,  and it can be a PR nightmare if it becomes public that Valpo is not letting him play right away. (Several national writers hype these scenarios and the team usually ultimately backs down...and other coaches use it in negative recruiting). Does MVC have any criteria for interconference transfers? ML have already signed off on it?

[vu72]

Academically, if he's an engineer student

He is not an engineering student.  He was studying Sport Management at Valpo.

[valpotx]

It is fun reading the Missouri State forum.  They are in for a surprise, if they think that they have found their stretch 4.  Clay has no desire to play in the post.  They also seem to think that his low shooting % is due to not getting open looks from 3.  Most of his looks from 3 were wide open, regardless of whether they were early or later in the shot clock.  He did have a few contested 3's, just like anyone else, but the majority were wide open and just missed.  They are correct, however, on gaining a stellar defender that can guard all 5 positions, as well as rebounder and distributor. 

[JD24]

Clay was a good defensive player when he seemed to want to be. He was a poor offensive player as his shot not only didn't go in, but never looked like it was going in. He's just not a natural shooter. That cut down on his chances for acting as more of a slasher. His disappearing act during some games was nearly criminal although I don't know what the coach is supposed to do about it. You can't win without the guy the team is depending on whether he's on the court or he's on the bench.

I don't look at him as any great loss and I'm not sure why anyone would feel any sort of insult that he transferred in conference.

[valpotx]

It looks like a decent amount of kids are selecting schools now.  It will be an interesting next few weeks.

[VUGrad1314]

Should he have stopped playing Clay altogether?  You can't force someone to care...

No but he could have cut his minutes when he saw him disengaging to send the message that not even the core players can afford to slack off. If that was the takeaway Ognacevic received that certain players got treated with kid gloves and it cost us his services then the takeaway is that Lottich should have done more to hold players who were giving less effort accountable. Not taking away Clay's minutes entirely but to do enough to show that that won't be tolerated. Again I am operating from the assumption raised potentially by you that Lottich's inability to do this cost us both Clay and Ognacevic. If that's the case then it was a huge mistake that Matt needs to learn from and I hope he does.

I don't know whether to call this conjecture or confabulation, but you're making up facts and then debating people around them to make our coach look bad. We have no idea what JO was referring to with his irresponsible diatribe. All we know is JO's "truth," which may be far from THE truth.

At least be fair before you jump down my throat. I'm not the one who  "made up facts" I only took the situation Valpotx described in an earlier post and then extrapolated that if that's what Ognacevic is talking about and that's what caused him to transfer then Lottich definitely mishandled and bungled that situation. That's not "trying to make the coach look bad" because I never once suggested that it is true. The key word I used was that IF it's true then that's not a good job of coaching by Lottich. I fail to see why that is a controversial statement. It might be untrue and I hope it is but if that is the reason we lost JO then Lottich deserves culpability there and could have (should have) done more. I get it. That's really easy for me to say because I don't coach and I'm not optimistic about this program's future under Lottich and I want nothing more than to eat every single one of these words but right now I am seeing precious little evidence that Matt Lottich will lead us to become anything more than a middling MVC team. I hope that's not what we're stuck with and that's  not the best we're willing to be.

[JBC1824]

1315 was very clearly responding to a previous poster's hypothetical and addressing such along hypothetical lines. He was not asserting that any of what was discussed in his post or the post he was referring to had indeed happened.

Furthermore, no one needs to "make" our coach look bad. He very obviously looks bad all on his own. Arguably the program's second best player made a lateral transfer to a conference foe, in a rather apparent "F you" to the coach/school. This comes on the heels of another player who should have been one of our best players of the future having decided to transfer and on his way out being as publicly critical of his coaches as I can recall any D1 college athlete being....

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate, and having lost far more transfers over the past few years than any of our conference foes. It's also a safe bet someone would be hard-pressed to come up with more than a handful of other programs having lost as many players to transfer as Valpo has during Lottich's tenure -- a tenure which most notably of all though has been characterized by losing basketball games.

To suggest we have "no idea" what JO was referring to is silly. His "diatribe" may have been irresponsible behavior for a young man in his position, but it was specific.

It is also equally as likely that JO's "truth" accurately reflects the current atmosphere inside the Valpo mens bball program. And honestly, common sense would suggest there is some level of truth to what he had to say. Each and every one of us has wondered what has been "off" with this program these past few years. JO's comments provide a very plausible indication as to what this could be: unaccountability. To dismiss his comments completely as you appear to have done is being intentionally mindless.

WH, I understand it's your stated interest to keep the posts on this forum positive so potential recruits viewing the forum might not be turned off from joining the program. But the lengths to which you go to consistently turd polish each obviously negative thing which happens to the program are becoming a bit much.

I do appreciate your pertinacity.

[bbtds]

It is close to his home, this is not a total surprise.  If he would have landed at SLU, that would have also not surprised me.  Don't exercise any bar to him playing, as that just gives him an extra year to mature/improve, and come back at us with even more vengeance in mind.  Let him play the next 2 seasons.  This does not scare me in the least, and I think that we have improved with the transfers that we are gaining/losing. 

Let's do the math.

Alton, IL to Springfield, MO is 238 miles.

Alton, IL to Valpo is 308 miles.

Not all that huge of a difference.

Alton, IL to SLU is 24 miles

That is a huge difference.

[bbtds]

But I do appreciate your pertinacity.

In case you are like me and had not heard this word "pertinacity" in a while here is the definition.

Pertinacity is a quality of sticking with something, no matter what. It's a type of persistent determination. People who have pertinacity won't give up, and they stick with things doggedly. Pursuing a difficult career requires pertinacity. Pertinacity is a mix of courage, conviction, and a little stubbornness.

[valpopal]

When I think about what a couple of posters have speculated concerning Lottich's use of Clay and JO, I don't disagree with either nor do I offer an answer, but I do remember the Drake game that Valpo blew. The Crusaders (they still were) led at halftime 43-35 thanks to a great first half by JO. He scored 11 points (3 3-pointers) had two rebounds and a block in only 7 minutes of play. Oren noted JO was shouting for the ball with confidence. During the first half Clay had 0 points. Nevertheless, in the second half Clay played 17 minutes and scored only 6 points, while JO sat on the bench except for less than 3 minutes and never even got a single shot, plus he was not in the game during the 4-minute drought at the end of the game when Drake scored 11 straight points that caused the 80-77 loss against a #25 ranked team. I am not going to further speculation about what happened between Lottich and JO or Clay, but I will state unequivocally, as I did on the board then, that was the turning point in the season for me.

[valpo64]

"WH" has hit the nail on the head.  Some of us are getting tired of the constant negative comments regarding Coach Lottich. Whenever some negativity regarding our program arises it is always Coach's fault.  Everyone's criticisms, including players, are correct in their respective assessments ...the critics are always right and the fault is always in the program and the Coach.  Some appear to go to great lengths to find fault.  It would be interesting to hear some of our posters to go on other school's boards and access their problems with a teams successes/failures, player movement, coaches performance, and who and where to place the blame for negative outcomes in the respective  program.  The glass is not always half empty.

[valpotx]

It is close to his home, this is not a total surprise.  If he would have landed at SLU, that would have also not surprised me.  Don't exercise any bar to him playing, as that just gives him an extra year to mature/improve, and come back at us with even more vengeance in mind.  Let him play the next 2 seasons.  This does not scare me in the least, and I think that we have improved with the transfers that we are gaining/losing.

Let's do the math.

Alton, IL to Springfield, MO is 238 miles.

Alton, IL to Valpo is 308 miles.

Not all that huge of a difference.

Alton, IL to SLU is 24 miles

That is a huge difference.

Congrats, you can do the maths .

The general point was that it is close to home, when you look at D-1 universities within a certain radius from his hometown.  It is 70 miles closer than Valpo, and 3 1/2 hours is not a far distance for someone to travel for college.  This is coming from someone that did the 19-20 hour drive from DFW to Valpo.

[JBC1824]

"WH" has hit the nail on the head.  Some of us are getting tired of the constant negative comments regarding Coach Lottich. Whenever some negativity regarding our program arises it is always Coach's fault.  Everyone's criticisms, including players, are correct in their respective assessments ...the critics are always right and the fault is always in the program and the Coach.  Some appear to go to great lengths to find fault.  It would be interesting to hear some of our posters to go on other school's boards and access their problems with a teams successes/failures, player movement, coaches performance, and who and where to place the blame for negative outcomes in the respective  program.  The glass is not always half empty.

The constancy of the negative comments proportionately reflects the constancy of negative things happening to the Valpo mens bball program.

Many ascribe blame to Lottich specifically because on more than on occasion players and their family members have specified him in their complaints. Then, there is the matter of him being the head coach of the program and thus ultimatley being more responsible than any other individual for its successes and failures.

I'm afraid no one has had to go to very great lengths at all to find fault with Lottich. He inhereited an almost perennial 20 win per season program and aside from one good year with the old coach's players as well as a flash in the pan postseason run to the conference championship game, he has turned the very same program into a reliable bottom-feeder, with no end in sight to the losing. It's apparent no great lengths are required.

One must simply look up the team's record to find good cause to be critical, or the number of players fleeing en masse from the program each offseason. The constant criticism is not born out of contrivance but fundamental indications of failure.

Honestly, in the case of Valpo mens bball, the glass is niether half-full nor half-empty. That would suggest an equal amount of good and bad, and individuals' perceptions about such being the only real disparity. But there is far more bad than good here. However, if it makes you feel better, perhaps we could say the glass is something along the lines of 1/8 "full" -- which seems far more appropriate than to say half-full.

Here's a good line for you: how can we reasonably act as though the glass were half-full when just days ago the roster was half-full because of all the transfers?

Since joining the MVC, Valpo has one non-losing regular season record. The exception being when we went .500 a couple of years ago. We have lost far more than we have won in our new conference and have demostrated no meaningful progress towards sustained improvement. Every offseason there is a mass exodus of talent. This offseason we lost almost half of our roster, and players have very publicly called out the coach in humiliating fashion. What is there to be positive about exactly?

As I'm sure you expected, I couldn't have less of an interest in what happens with the other teams in the conference. I'm not a fan of their programs.

Furthermore, there is objectively far more to take issue with regarding Valpo bball than the rest of our conference foes with very few exceptions.

[wh]

1315 was very clearly responding to a previous poster's hypothetical and addressing such along hypothetical lines. He was not asserting that any of what was discussed in his post or the post he was referring to had indeed happened.

Furthermore, no one needs to "make" our coach look bad. He very obviously looks bad all on his own. Arguably the program's second best player made a lateral transfer to a conference foe, in a rather apparent "F you" to the coach/school. This comes on the heels of another player who should have been one of our best players of the future having decided to transfer and on his way out being as publicly critical of his coaches as I can recall any D1 college athlete being....

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate, and having lost far more transfers over the past few years than any of our conference foes. It's also a safe bet someone would be hard-pressed to come up with more than a handful of other programs having lost as many players to transfer as Valpo has during Lottich's tenure -- a tenure which most notably of all though has been characterized by losing basketball games.

To suggest we have "no idea" what JO was referring to is silly. His "diatribe" may have been irresponsible behavior for a young man in his position, but it was specific.

It is also equally as likely that JO's "truth" accurately reflects the current atmosphere inside the Valpo mens bball program. And honestly, common sense would suggest there is some level of truth to what he had to say. Each and every one of us has wondered what has been "off" with this program these past few years. JO's comments provide a very plausible indication as to what this could be: unaccountability. To dismiss his comments completely as you appear to have done is being intentionally mindless.

WH, I understand it's your stated interest to keep the posts on this forum positive so potential recruits viewing the forum might not be turned off from joining the program. But the lengths to which you go to consistently turd polish each obviously negative thing which happens to the program are becoming a bit much.

I do appreciate your pertinacity.

A quick scan of your 25 posts over your short 3 month history as a member of this forum are pretty revealing. You haven't made so much as 1 positive comment about anything related to Valpo basketball - winning game performances, individual accomplishments, new recruits, nothing. You have an obsession with trashing our coach, our program, and piling on when others do the same. You breed negativity.

Maybe you would care to explain why you're so venomous. I might be able to help. Or, in case you're a friend/family member of a "mistreated" player, you might want to consider quietly bowing out and finding a healthier outlet for your frustrations. Good luck to you.

[JBC1824]

1315 was very clearly responding to a previous poster's hypothetical and addressing such along hypothetical lines. He was not asserting that any of what was discussed in his post or the post he was referring to had indeed happened.

Furthermore, no one needs to "make" our coach look bad. He very obviously looks bad all on his own. Arguably the program's second best player made a lateral transfer to a conference foe, in a rather apparent "F you" to the coach/school. This comes on the heels of another player who should have been one of our best players of the future having decided to transfer and on his way out being as publicly critical of his coaches as I can recall any D1 college athlete being....

Then there's the wider backdrop of the mens bball program having lost a total of seven players to transfer this offseason, which is high even amidst the current transfer climate, and having lost far more transfers over the past few years than any of our conference foes. It's also a safe bet someone would be hard-pressed to come up with more than a handful of other programs having lost as many players to transfer as Valpo has during Lottich's tenure -- a tenure which most notably of all though has been characterized by losing basketball games.

To suggest we have "no idea" what JO was referring to is silly. His "diatribe" may have been irresponsible behavior for a young man in his position, but it was specific.

It is also equally as likely that JO's "truth" accurately reflects the current atmosphere inside the Valpo mens bball program. And honestly, common sense would suggest there is some level of truth to what he had to say. Each and every one of us has wondered what has been "off" with this program these past few years. JO's comments provide a very plausible indication as to what this could be: unaccountability. To dismiss his comments completely as you appear to have done is being intentionally mindless.

WH, I understand it's your stated interest to keep the posts on this forum positive so potential recruits viewing the forum might not be turned off from joining the program. But the lengths to which you go to consistently turd polish each obviously negative thing which happens to the program are becoming a bit much.

I do appreciate your pertinacity.

A quick scan of your 25 posts over your short 3 month history as a member of this forum are pretty revealing. You haven't made so much as 1 positive comment about anything related to Valpo basketball - winning game performances, individual accomplishments, new recruits, nothing. You have an obsession with trashing our coach, our program, and piling on when others do the same. You breed negativity.

Maybe you would care to explain why you're so venomous. I might be able to help. Or, in case you're a friend/family member of a "mistreated" player, you might want to consider quietly bowing out and finding a healthier outlet for your frustrations. Good luck to you.

Over the past three months there have been pretty "revealing" developments as it relates to Valpo mens bball, or have there not been?

Should someone commenting on the state of the program over these past few months have had negative or positive things to say?

The answer is obvious.

[NativeCheesehead]

I'm also getting tired of the "Lottich is," or "Lottich isn't," on every topic here, and I say this as a member of Team Lottich Isn't. Can we all just agree with the returning roster, incoming freshmen, and experienced  transfers that next year is THE year where we find out if he's the guy or not?