Transfers

[JBC1824]

I would like to hear the comments from those who  seem to know all the facts and where to place blame for kids transferring from a school  comment on some of the other MVC schools such as Drake, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, even Loyola now and perhaps others who also either have lost or continue to lose players in recent years to the transfer portal.  Some of you must think that the coach at Drake should lose his job also, after all he lost the best big man in The  Valley last year then this year lost one of the best, maybe the best, point guard in the  league.

Yet again, you are ignoring the amount of transfers Valpo has lost as compared with other programs since Lottich became our head coach.

Yes, every program loses some players to transfer each offseason. But we have lost more than any of the other 350 D1 college bball programs over the past five years. This is indeed a problem, is it not?

[VUGrad1314]

Moreover, I don't think this is even the first time other players' families have been critical of the program and Lottich or his gameplanning specifically. I remember this being an issue in previous years as well. It's easy to dismiss when it's just one family at one specific time but when there are others voicing similar opinions that is an issue.

[usc4valpo]

Honestly, I have seen some parents who don't have their heads on straight for their kids. I was at some Valpo football games where parents constantly chew out and stalk the officials throughout the game. Very sad indeed. I take parents feedback with a grain of salt as there is emotion in the decision making.

[vuny98]

A few points. I don't think any of the Lottich supporters are saying he's not responsible at all for the departures. Of course he plays a role and he probably has driven a few players away. You don't think the same could be said about Izzo, or Krzyzewski or Knight or almost any coach? If we were winning at a high rate, people put up with it. If were not, especially in these times, kids leave. Lottich is young, still figuring it out and likely has an abrasive personality. Its not the best mix. I think Clay going to Missouri State says more about him than it does Valpo, IMO. I believe he had his eyes set on a bigger conference, but I am to assume none came calling. So he made a lateral move, and probably in part because MoSt had history with him and knew what he was potentially capable of, and also knowing he wouldn't be needed to play a large offensive role on their team. All this talk about JO being a perfect fit for Valpo is conjecture. He went to a Lutheren High School and faith is important to him = Perfect Fit. And don't get me wrong, maybe he is a great kid and maybe he was a perfect fit. But he also could be a selfish A-hole for all I know. The former is probably true, but we are all going on about how losing him is a clear sign that Lottich can't cut it. I'm not happy about losing him, I think it sucks, but sometimes people just don't work out. I will say I was not happy about JO's role on the team and games where he would shoot the lights out and then sit the bench the 2nd half was infuriating. And his comments do shed light on what is likely a real issue. But it is also one persons opinion and the posters on this board take it as fact (vs the opinion that it is) and couple it with the perfect fit argument to spin it into this huge red flag. I said months ago, there are 5 players I did not want to lose but if we keep 3 of the 5 I am happy. We kept 3 of those 5, so I am still sticking with what I said and I am happy. Now I assumed Clay would leave and I would maybe have preferred JO stay vs Barret (If Barrett had not gotten hurt this may be different), but otherwise, Edwards and Krikke are clearly the leaders of the team. I think we reupped with some good transfers that can shoot the ball and I am very excited about the incoming Freshman. Regardless of what happens, next year we will lose another 4+ players to transfers and we will argue the same thing. I have no doubt about that. None of this is to say I don't think there is an issue and that we should just ignore it or not complain about it. Lottich is far from perfect and he needs to get better if we want to win. But to WH's point, we should be more cognizant about what we say and how we say it. There is bashing and there is constructive criticism. I am as guilty as any of us about sometimes bashing (especially when it came to the play of certain players). And I probably give Lottich more leeway and forgiveness than I should. But I do think the program is making progress that we should be hopeful about. It's hard for me to advocate an overhaul and take the risk that we start from scratch when we are improving, albeit slowly.

The issue with the transfers is that Valpo has possibly lost more players to transfer than any other program in the entire country during the past five years. This clearly indicates there is a Valpo-specific problem as it relates to transfers. Simply because something happens on a lesser scale elsewhere, and amongst even the best programs, this does not excuse it happening here at quite possibly the highest rate in all of college bball. Your argument completely ignores the extent to which this has been an issue here as compared to these succesful programs or other programs generally. For instance, if were were talking about the murder rate in cities across the globe, and we were residents of Tijuana, Mexico (the city with the highest murder rate in the world according to some sources), we as Tijuana residents would not say to ourselves, "sure there are a lot of murders here in Tijuana, but what's the big fuss over? Even the safest cities in the world have some murders." This is however the exact logic you're employing. Yes, if we were winning all of us would gladly put up with the high transfer rate. But we are not winning. Nearly everything you had to say about the situation involving Clay is itself conjecture, which is the exact basis on which you dismiss others' suggestions that JO was a perfect fit here at Valpo. Be consistent with your standards about what makes for a good argument. Personally, I have given no indication I believe JO's word as fact. However, I have said and still believe it is more likely than not there is some truth to what he had to say. The public criticism of the coach has also not come from just JO; Clay and his family as well as Robinson made their feelings known publicly. What they all have said taken as a whole does suggest there is a larger issue. It's the whole, "when there's smoke, there's fire" line of thinking. And if you then consider all of this public criticism in the context of us losing more transfers than likely any other program in the country during Lottich's tenure, then yes, this is something of a red flag. Simply because we happened to retain some of players you like this go 'round does not mean the rate of players transfering away from Valpo is not still a problem. If we continue to lose transfers at this rate we will eventually lose too many players we all like. Your arguments do seem to suggest we ignore there is problem and not complain about it. I'm sorry but I will not pretend things are any better than they are at a given time. We are definitionally not making progress or improving. We had our worst overall record since joining the MVC and second worst conference record this past season.

Let me reiterate a few things... I clearly said "None of this is to say I don't think there is an issue and that we should just ignore it or not complain about it.". I do think this is a problem and I am not happy about it. I also clearly stated that Lottic was an issue "I don't think any of the Lottich supporters are saying he's not responsible at all for the departures. Of course he plays a role and he probably has driven a few players away." " Lottich is far from perfect and he needs to get better if we want to win."

For the Clay comments, you may have missed the key words, so let me retype them. "I think" "I believe" "IMO" "Assume". All of those in 3 sentences (albeit one was a run on). Yes its conjecture, and I prefaced my comments there to reflect that. I have no problem with people posting their beliefs or opinion. I do it all the time. Its a message board. I was merely pointing out the JO is a perfect fit argument is an opinion and we should treat those comments as such.

I also said in relation to JO, "And his comments do shed light on what is likely a real issue." So clearly I am not dismissing it.

Simply because we happened to retain some of players you like this go 'round does not mean the rate of players transfering away from Valpo is not still a problem. -  Never it wasn't a problem, just that I knew we would lose several to transfers this year and I had hoped that at least 3 of the 5 that I viewed as key pieces stayed. Just because I am happy with the outcome doesn't mean you need to be.

Your arguments do seem to suggest we ignore there is problem and not complain about it. " Again "None of this is to say I don't think there is an issue and that we should just ignore it or not complain about it.". It's like you read what I wrote and then just typed the opposite.

We are definitionally not making progress or improving. We had our worst overall record since joining the MVC and second worst conference record this past season. - Agree to disagree. Given the loss of JFL, and the bright spots that were the Freshman class and the play of Krikke, and being in a top heavy MVC and playing those top teams well. I think we did alright. Very inconstant. Not a successful year or a year I'd like to repeat, but I see the building blocks. Record will only tell you so much. Eventually we need to win, that I agree.

[VUGrad1314]

Simply put we need Gordon and Zion if he's back to lead  Krikke and the Sophomores to keep improving and we need the freshmen to be as good as advertised. If that happens I think a lot of people's opinions will start to turn more positively toward Lottich. Get better. Crack .500. Avoid Thursday again. Show a happy team that likes to play together and who are likely to stay together as much as can be hoped for in this climate and we can all finally cast hopeful eyes toward the future and do so not wistfully but with good reason for that optimism. That's all I want. I don't want to have to force myself to feel hopeful in the face of overwhelming evidence that I shouldn't be. I want genuine reasons for optimism about the program again. Give me that and I am completely fine sticking by and supporting Lottich. But if he can't do that he needs to go. It's that simple.

[JBC1824]

Honestly, I have seen some parents who don't have their heads on straight for their kids. I was at some Valpo football games where parents constantly chew out and stalk the officials throughout the game. Very sad indeed. I take parents feedback with a grain of salt as there is emotion in the decision making.

As you rightly should.

[VUBBFan]

I would like to hear the comments from those who  seem to know all the facts and where to place blame for kids transferring from a school  comment on some of the other MVC schools such as Drake, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, even Loyola now and perhaps others who also either have lost or continue to lose players in recent years to the transfer portal.  Some of you must think that the coach at Drake should lose his job also, after all he lost the best big man in The  Valley last year then this year lost one of the best, maybe the best, point guard in the  league.

Yet again, you are ignoring the amount of transfers Valpo has lost as compared with other programs since Lottich became our head coach. Yes, every program loses some players to transfer each offseason. But we have lost more than any of the other 350 D1 college bball programs over the past five years. This is indeed a problem, is it not?

Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would also challenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.
Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would alsochallenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.

The preceding Bold statements are incorrect or misleading as fact checked by an independent third party. There are many programs that have more transfers than Valpo (19) over the past 5 years 92017-2021. Following is a partial list of schools that had more (did not include ties) transfers than Valpo's 19. I quit when I got to the letter I cause I got tiered so it is only about 1/3 of the way though the alphabet, but enough to challenge the writer's assumptions:

Akron  21
Albany 24
Bryant 21
Central Conn St 21
Chattanooga 20
Cleveland St 20
Detroit Mercy 23
DePaul 23
Eastern Michigan 21
ETSU 20
Fairfield 20
Florida Gulf Coast 22
Idaho 23
Just because a wrong statement is said over and over does not make it true, but the longer it goes on unchallenged, the more people begin to think that it is true.

[JBC1824]

vuny98,

To be honest I found your comments confusing and self-contradictory. I will readily admit I likely did not fully understand the arguments you were trying to make or the intent behind them. I'm going to choose not to go through every detail of the disagreement on this one. We will have to agree to disagree.

[JBC1824]

I would like to hear the comments from those who  seem to know all the facts and where to place blame for kids transferring from a school  comment on some of the other MVC schools such as Drake, Illinois State, Southern Illinois, even Loyola now and perhaps others who also either have lost or continue to lose players in recent years to the transfer portal.  Some of you must think that the coach at Drake should lose his job also, after all he lost the best big man in The  Valley last year then this year lost one of the best, maybe the best, point guard in the  league.

Yet again, you are ignoring the amount of transfers Valpo has lost as compared with other programs since Lottich became our head coach. Yes, every program loses some players to transfer each offseason. But we have lost more than any of the other 350 D1 college bball programs over the past five years. This is indeed a problem, is it not?

Your comment also ignores the years prior to this, when we have lost large numbers of players to transfer as well. Valpo has suffered more transfers than any of our conference foes during Lottich's tenure. I would alsochallenge anyone to find more than a handful of other DI mens bball programs amongst the 350 or so across the country which have lost more players to transfer than Valpo has during this time. Part of me doubts there are any.

The preceding Bold statements are incorrect or misleading as fact checked by an independent third party. There are many programs that have more transfers than Valpo (19) over the past 5 years 92017-2021. Following is a partial list of schools that had more (did not include ties) transfers than Valpo's 19. I quit when I got to the letter I cause I got tiered so it is only about 1/3 of the way though the alphabet, but enough to challenge the writer's assumptions:

Akron  21
Albany 24
Bryant 21
Central Conn St 21
Chattanooga 20
Cleveland St 20
Detroit Mercy 23
DePaul 23
Eastern Michigan 21
ETSU 20
Fairfield 20
Florida Gulf Coast 22
Idaho 23

Just because a wrong statement is said over and over does not make it true, but the longer it goes on unchallenged, the more people begin to think that it is true.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size]

I have made the point about Valpo suffering more transfers than other programs in the country many times, as I'm sure you've noticed.

Every single time I have said something along the lines of "Valpo seems likely to have lost more...."

You have highlighted the one occasion I believe when I accidentally wrote this as if I intended to assert the point with certainty. I apologize for that oversight.

We have still lost more transfers than any of our conference opponents, and more than the vast, vast majority of the programs across the country. It is still not a good look.

[VUBBFan]

I have made the point about Valpo suffering more transfers than other programs in the country many times, as I'm sure you've noticed. Every single time I have said something along the lines of "Valpo seems likely to have lost more...." You have highlighted the one occasion I believe when I accidentally wrote this as if I intended to assert the point with certainty. I apologize for that oversight. We have still lost more transfers than any of our conference opponents, and more than the vast, vast majority of the programs across the country. It is still not a good lo

[/b]



Now this I agree with.

[JBC1824]

VUBBFan,

That is indeed enough to challenge my assumptions.

I would also like to give you or whomever looked the information up a lot of credit for the diligent work. 

I will say I am surprised there are as many other programs out there with such high transfer numbers. But if you had gotten about 1/3 through the list as you suggested, then I would guess there then figures to be roughly just thirty or fourty programs in the country amongst the three hundred and fifty with more transfers than Valpo over the past five seasons. Therefore, we would be operating in the bottom tenth percentile.

Admittedly this means there are slightly more than a "handful" of other programs having suffered more transfers than us.

However, to an extent I believe we are splitting hairs here.

We cannot expect to establish ourselves as a competitive program again unless the problem with all of the lost transfers is resolved. Being in the bottom ten percent for this particular issue is inexcusable.

[valpo84]

Good article in WSJ today about transfers.  Some good stats. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ncaa-college-basketball-transfer-portal-11618246228?st=b3e135ewet18tdk&reflink=article_email_share

Also, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, former NBA player, had some interesting comments about the role of parents in today's athletics and how it relates to some of the comments above and transfers, on his twitter April 10 (@TeamRHJAZ). 

[bb33]

The one thing that bothers my about this article is the quote from Villanova.  They are not the ones who are severely impacted by the transfer rules.  It is the mid majors.  Many people only look at the athletes in the P5 conference...who are rightly being used to make a lot of money for their schools.  It's the mid majors, who could ultimately become farm programs for the high majors.  I can see these schools saying, spend a year to two in the mids and if you do well, we will come and get you.   So yes, they will change how they do things.  The P5s will only become stronger because they can pull great mid major talent and not have to make room for the underclassmen who need development. They can essentially outsource that development time. 

[vu72]

The one thing that bothers my about this article is the quote from Villanova.  They are not the ones who are severely impacted by the transfer rules.  It is the mid majors.  Many people only look at the athletes in the P5 conference...who are rightly being used to make a lot of money for their schools.  It's the mid majors, who could ultimately become farm programs for the high majors.  I can see these schools saying, spend a year to two in the mids and if you do well, we will come and get you.   So yes, they will change how they do things.  The P5s will only become stronger because they can pull great mid major talent and not have to make room for the underclassmen who need development. They can essentially outsource that development time. 

True enough but it works both ways.  Valpo has had transfers from places like Indiana, Virginia Tech, Alabama, Marquette, Charlotte, Rice, Iowa State and, most recently, Wisconsin. There are plenty of top 200 players who start out at a power 5 and then realize that playing time won't be what they thought or that the coach is crazy or whatever and decide to move "down".

[bb33]

That's true. I'm just afraid with the new rule, assuming it passes, will make it a more formalized process than it already is.

[IndyValpo]

As of yesterday there were 1305 transfers listed on Verbal Commits. 19 of those were transfers up. Here is the amazing stat out of 358 D1 or transitioning schools 340 have at least one transferring.

By school
16 transfers - 1 school
12 - 1
10 - 2
9  - 5
8 - 14
7 - 21
6 - 20
5 - 43
4 - 57

Of course that was yesterday, more today I am sure. I see that Neese of Ind State is off the list so he must be returning.

[M]

Those transfer downs all had to sit out a year didn't they? Brave new world now.

[wh]

Based on the numbers cited in the article, an average of nearly 4 scholarship players per team have entered the portal. We're on the high side with 6. Most everyone in the know expects this trend to continue. Many coaches and analysts indicate that recruiting the portal will become more important than traditional recruiting.

The Valpo coaching staff has been doing a stellar job of traditional recruiting over the past 2 years. I think they have already hit a home run in recruiting this year's transfer portal with Trevor Anderson. And they may not be done yet. Matt Bowen's name keeps coming up, especially connected to Wisconsin and Minnesota (Goodnews). Luke seems to have a good Canadian connection, and Matt seems to be great at closing the deal. I also love that we pulled Keyondre from Oklahoma and Sheldon from Florida. Those have to be from special, personal connections. IMO this is all pretty exciting and will hopefully pay dividends in our climb to the top of the conference.

[Chairback]

Is not sitting out a year if you transfer just a 2021 one time thing or going forward also?  Not sure if it changed forever.

What is the current rule?  Not interested in speculation on what could happen.   

[vuny98]

vuny98, To be honest I found your comments confusing and self-contradictory. I will readily admit I likely did not fully understand the arguments you were trying to make or the intent behind them. I'm going to choose not to go through every detail of the disagreement on this one. We will have to agree to disagree.

Your a manager at your job. You have an employee that is new and young and taking over a role that was previously held by several high performers. He has shown some signs of strength but also several weaknesses. He is currently struggling a bit with a certain issue. But many of his peers are also struggling with the same issues, just not to the same extent. Your boss comes to complain about this employee to you.

Do you say:

- I agree, his work is unacceptable. I will fire him right away and find someone new and better.

- There is no problem at all, everyone at his position is having these issues. He is doing fine. No matter who was in these shoes it would be the same.

- Yes I agree he needs to do a better job, But I will remind you he is young and new and many of his peers have similar issues. I am continuing to work with him and if we don't see progress, eventually we will need to make a change.

I went with option #3. It may seem self contradictory or confusing that I can on one hand criticize and complain about the program/coach while also pointing out facts in support of them and optimism for the direction, but that's my perspective.

[vu72]

Loyola just lost another, now up to three.  Joey Brunk from Indiana  is now in the portal.  That would be a great get for us.

[M]

How many years have to go by before option 3 is no longer eligible to be selected? 

[crusader05]

Well the assumption with 3 is that you set a timeline or standards for improvement to be met. right now we have 2 years of high transfers and 2 years of low transfers. The question is what does Mark and Matt's convo look like and what has Mark decided is long enough.

My guess is that there's some attempt to investigat3e this within the athletic department but we won't be privy to it until 1. Mark decides he has not improved or 2. continued and growing pressure from donors/fans convince him that his timeline was too long and he needs to adjust

[VUBBFan]

Sackey ends up at New Orleans

[vu72]

Sackey ends up at New Orleans

Well, if one of their seniors comes back he won't be the shortest player.  One is listed at 5'6" AND shot 28.4% from the three!