Murray State > Valpo

[AlecPeters101]

Okay I didn't even know I had this account to be honest. I was trying to make one with my email and got a notification that my email was already in use so forgive the name. I've been viewing this board for a little over 6 years. I probably read this forum about every day so I would consider myself a very active member. I never post but I believe my opinion on a lot of things are good one. You may be shocked when reading this title but let's be honest here for a second. It hurts me to say this but put you bias aside. Look at what Murray state does. The attendance, the lottery pick, the culture. Sure we have a culture in a way but we thrive off of that 1998 run. To me that is so embarrassing. When are we going to let that season go and stop riding the coattail of Bryce and that season. What would we be without the Drew's? I understand that is kind of a would've could've should've hypothetical but it's true nonetheless. Our attendance is awful no matter what angle you look at it. Why is that? Is it because we play garbage teams? Is it because we arent very good right now? Or is it because locals simply don't care about the Valpo basketball team? I'd say it's a combination of all 3 and maybe a few others but for me I believe it's the last one. The everyday day person in the region thinks the Valpo U basketball team is a joke, and that's a fact. I've seen it at a first hand experience. They care more about the big school in the area. IU, Purdue, ND, etc. what does Vu have to offer? A crappy arena, almost 0 game day experience, and lately a crappy product. Now look at Murray state, look at their home attendance, and now look at the game they had tomight and how well they travel, it is simply amazing. I as a Valpo fan am EMBARASSED. We barely dedicated anything to our program. Why aren't we visiting local younger elementary, middle and high schools to build more of a fan base since we lack one? Why don't we get involved in the community besides simply going to the popcorn fest and half asssing everything? Why don't we try and fund for a better stadium? To me, lottich is not the long term answer! If we know this why don't we just cut ties and try and find a fit that will benefit us long term? If I was the mvc I would be incredibly pissed they didn't take Murray. Why? They change the conference tournament. Look at the publicity they recieve mostly because of ja Morant but still. They've actually won a tourney game in the last 10 years, while we still ride off the coat tail of one that happened 20 years ago. They've won multiple actually I believe. We are a joke of a program to be completely honest. Sure we have potential to be good. But I believe we have a very low ceiling compared to some other teams in this league. At least for now, until some major changes are made. Sorry for the rambling I've been saving this for a long time. Let me know what you think

[RacerJoeD]

As a Racer fan, I felt compelled to respond to this thread, not to try to poke holes in it, nor to try to make the case for Murray State.

I truly believe that Murray State does belong in the MVC. But it is also true that I believe that Valpo is a good add for the MVC. You have to take the longer view on expansion and make bets on long term payoff. That why I believe that Valpo (and Murray for that matter) are good adds for the MVC.

[NativeCheesehead]

I'm as critical as anyone about all this but this is clearly a troll job.

Mods?

[may know]

Come on. Even the MVC fans weren't Murray vs Valpo. They wanted both.

[justducky]

I'm as critical as anyone about all this but this is clearly a troll job.

Mods?

Well Racer is no troll.  VUGrad1314 and I frequently back up his positions on the MVC board. The AlecPeters101 post also looks thoughtful and legitimate. But how can he start a thread with only 4 posts?

Even the MVC fans weren't Murray vs Valpo. They wanted both.

The majority of MVC fans still want Murray but the scheduling problems of an 11 team league have closed the minds of the administrators.

[valpo84]

As a friend of mine emailed today after his Racers won this weekend, since the filed expanded to 64 (+) in 1985, Murray has been to 14 NCAAs from the traditional one-bid conference OVC.  Murray is faced with the same dilemma we have been faced with move to a more competitive conference and battle for 1 (or maybe 2 bids) or stay in a conference that you can dominate perennially.  The question for Murray is why move up?  They have an excellent shot every year of making the tourney.  It has been a launching pad for coaches like Mark Gottfried, Billy Kennedy, Steve Prohm and Mick Cronin.  It is essentially the only game in town (Padukah) and draws well.  They would be a good add for the MVC.  However, would they be looking at a bid this year if they were in the MVC? They were 3-0 vs MVC teams this year, including good road win versus SIU.  They only beat EVille by 2 at home.  They had losses to Bama and Auburn and the rest of their schedule was not that exciting (much like ours without a tourney this year).  They were able to feast on the bottom half of their conference.  The MVC as we have seen the past 2 years is a nightly slugfest.  Murray is where we were when we were in the Mid-Con/Summit/Horizon.  You are going to compete for a bid, but is the pool too small.  We have made the move and it has had its growing pains.  Adding Murray means the conference gets tougher, but does it mean more than one bid gets easier?

[vu72]

As a friend of mine emailed today after his Racers won this weekend, since the filed expanded to 64 (+) in 1985, Murray has been to 14 NCAAs from the traditional one-bid conference OVC.  Murray is faced with the same dilemma we have been faced with move to a more competitive conference and battle for 1 (or maybe 2 bids) or stay in a conference that you can dominate perennially.  The question for Murray is why move up?  They have an excellent shot every year of making the tourney.  It has been a launching pad for coaches like Mark Gottfried, Billy Kennedy, Steve Prohm and Mick Cronin.  It is essentially the only game in town (Padukah) and draws well.  They would be a good add for the MVC.  However, would they be looking at a bid this year if they were in the MVC? They were 3-0 vs MVC teams this year, including good road win versus SIU.  They only beat EVille by 2 at home.  They had losses to Bama and Auburn and the rest of their schedule was not that exciting (much like ours without a tourney this year).  They were able to feast on the bottom half of their conference.  The MVC as we have seen the past 2 years is a nightly slugfest.  Murray is where we were when we were in the Mid-Con/Summit/Horizon.  You are going to compete for a bid, but is the pool too small.  We have made the move and it has had its growing pains.  Adding Murray means the conference gets tougher, but does it mean more than one bid gets easier?

It is the same situation for Belmont.  26-5 and probably won't make the tourney.  Why doesn't the committee just clear things up by saying "regardless of what your record is, if you are not from a Power 5 conference you won't get in unless you win your conference championship" .  All the speculation and ultimate disappointment would be eliminated.

[vu84v2]

I have always been in favor of the MVC adding Murray State. Quality program and good continuity when coaches have left. I generally believe adding strong programs does create realistic chances of conference members getting at-large births - but my opinion may change this year based on what happens with Utah State, Belmont, Saint Mary's and Lipscomb.

That said, there are reason why Murray State might not work for the MCC (beyond the 11 team scheduling issue):
-Murray's attendance has been very good this year, but it is misleading. Their average attendance was well under 4000 in the previous two years. Not a bad number compared to many MVC teams, but also not a big positive.
-Murray is remote. Think of going to Evansville or SIU and choosing to drive two hours in the direction with the least population...because you will be in Murray. Murray is about the size of Valpo with nothing around it until you get to Paducah (45 minutes away). This creates two issues: 1. Minimal media attention, 2. Difficult travel for all sports teams.
-Football. I do not believe Murray wants to give up D1AA football and they need a conference. The OVC is not going to let them stay and I have never thought that the Missouri Valley Football Conference had any intentions of adding them.

I would be interested in RacerJoeD's opinion on these issues.

[vu84v2]

Previous comment:

It is the same situation for Belmont.  26-5 and probably won't make the tourney.  Why doesn't the committee just clear things up by saying "regardless of what your record is, if you are not from a Power 5 conference you won't get in unless you win your conference championship" .  All the speculation and ultimate disappointment would be eliminated.

Response:

There are probably a list of valid reasons why this would never happen, but (in my view) the biggest one is that all of the teams from conferences outside of the Power 5 and Big East would join together and sue them for violating anti-trust laws. These universities would be highly motivated as many have spent large sums of money to be able to compete for tournament slots and the power conference teams would be fearful of rulings that could affect their tax status.

[justducky]

That said, there are reason why Murray State might not work for the MCC (beyond the 11 team scheduling issue):
-Murray's attendance has been very good this year, but it is misleading. Their average attendance was well under 4000 in the previous two years. Not a bad number compared to many MVC teams, but also not a big positive.
-Murray is remote. Think of going to Evansville or SIU and choosing to drive two hours in the direction with the least population...because you will be in Murray. Murray is about the size of Valpo with nothing around it until you get to Paducah (45 minutes away). This creates two issues: 1. Minimal media attention, 2. Difficult travel for all sports teams.
-Football. I do not believe Murray wants to give up D1AA football and they need a conference. The OVC is not going to let them stay and I have never thought that the Missouri Valley Football Conference had any intentions of adding them.

I would be interested in RacerJoeD's opinion on these issues.

The MVC fan forum has discussed all of this 4 times over and Racer has spoken to these questions until he is hoarse. As a courtesy to him it would be easier for all just to check out the MVC site and review the debate. If you see something you want to add then register and join the fun. Lots of good topics, lots of activity, lots of opportunity to communicate.

[RacerJoeD]

being one of the two best teams in the Southland, SWAC, MEAC, or Big West doesn't appeal to me either, no matter how "easy" the path to the NCAA tournament is.


How bad is it, you ask?

Currently, according to Nolan, the OVC is the 23rd best conference in CBB. For some perspective, that is behind basketball powerhouse conferences like the Big West, whose highest NET team is the mighty Anteaters of UC Irvine. Also ahead of the current iteration of the OVC, the Big South, the ASUN, the Patriot League, and the Big South.

Where does Murray State fit into this? Well with a NET of 43, Here is where the Racers would sit (and why that matters)

Big South- 1st
Big West- 1st
Horizon- 1st
A Sun- 1st
Patriot- 1st
Colonial- 1st
Sun Belt- 1st
WAC- 1st
MVC- 1st
CUSA- 1st
Ivy- 1st

Mac- 2nd
Pac 12- 2nd
West Coast- 3rd
American- 4th
A10- 2nd
Big East- 3rd
SEC- 6th
ACC- 7th
Big Ten- 6th

Why does that matter?

These conferences are all ahead of the OVC, but not ahead of the Racers. And that is with the Racers playing the likes of TTU (NET 331 out of 352) twice. What would it be in the MVC? I would posit that it would look a lot like Wofford (NET 14).

So no, I have had no second thoughts about a move to the MVC.

As for media attention, our location hasn't hurt us in the past, nor this year. Its a 45 minute drive to the regional airport, but we have had Auburn, Houston, So. Miss, and UAB make the trip. Included in teams we have hosted, Evansville, Indiana State, Southern Illinois, Missouri State, Illinois State and Valparaiso.

Also, Murray is in the #82 ranked media market, one shared with SIU. This market is larger than Evansville, Missouri State, and Northern Iowa.


As has been said, more info can be seen on MVC fans message board.

[VUGrad1314]

But is that number a product of the bad competition that Murray State readily beats on? That seems to be the case with Valpo. With the exception of our best years we got fat off of bum slaying the likes of Detroit UIC Youngstown State etc. Murray State's record against the MVC seems to suggest that they would be fine but as we have found out it's a lot different to play these teams in January and February than it is in November.

As for anyone calling the OP a troll tell me where he steps out of line beyond reasonable and factual grounds?

[VUGrad1314]

MVC+ Murray State and Belmont is a 2-3 bid league. Book it.

[oklahomamick]

I remember playing Murray St home and home when they had NBA draft pick Cameron Payne.  We whooped them twice.  Man...I have to quit living in the past.

[RacerJoeD]

I will put it this way. This season, Valpo is 194 in the NET. That would be good enough for 5th in the OVC. The next highest OVC team would be Eastern Kentucky, 70 spots lower. Now, you may believe that this has been a bad stretch for your team. Historically I would agree, especially after the sustained success your program has achieved.


Here is something to think about.

The average NET for games against the top 3 other OVC NET teams and the entire OOC (D1 only) schedule for the Racers this season (15 games) is 149.53.
The Average NET of the rest of the games vs the OVC (13 games) is 301.5.

If we did nothing more than take away the 13 games against NET average 301.5 teams, and replaced them with lets say, 13 or so games vs teams with a NET average of 170 or so, that would be an equivalent NET schedule of Wofford.

The kicker? the MVC average NET is 170.

[vu72]

I think The Valley wanted to get a private to keep the balance.  I would go with Murray and Lipscomb.  Valpo played baseball and softball games at Lipscomb recently I was over there and their facilities are very nice, WAY better than Valpo.

[bbtds]

Why doesn't the committee just clear things up by saying "regardless of what your record is, if you are not from a Power 5 conference you won't get in unless you win your conference championship" .  All the speculation and ultimate disappointment would be eliminated.

I think in practice the selection committee is saying that but they are afraid they miss inviting a Final Four team such as Butler, Gonzaga, Charlotte, etc. so they don't make it an absolute pronouncement.

[crusaderjoe]

I think The Valley wanted to get a private to keep the balance.  I would go with Murray and Lipscomb.  Valpo played baseball and softball games at Lipscomb recently I was over there and their facilities are very nice, WAY better than Valpo.

Are we teetering in this thread on a discussion about who should be team #12?  If so, I'm going to lobby for UIC for a moment.  Double down on Chicago.  The geographical center of the MVC shifts slightly eastward, if at all, which has been the recent trend with the additions of LUC and Valpo anyway.  Travel partners make sense on the eastern side of the conference: LUC/UIC, VU/INST., UE/MSU; all others stay the same.  Nice facilities.  An anomaly as the only non football public in some ways might allow it to align with both the publics and privates in some circumstances politically.  Chicago area alumni would have two opportunities now to see their teams in conference play.  If MSU gives the green light on their addition as the farthest western member I think UIC makes sense.

[VUGrad1314]

I think NKU and Wright State are better choices if we're taking a non-football public but whatever gets Murray State in...

[AlecPeters101]

And to think people thought I was a troll when I made this thread...hmmmmmmm. Now I see posts from other posters saying the same thing. I've beem thinking this for months.

[a3uge]

And to think people thought I was a troll when I made this thread...hmmmmmmm. Now I see posts from other posters saying the same thing. I've beem thinking this for months.

You are still trolling.

[VUGrad1314]

For your viewing pleasure... What could have been for the MVC...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgQ2eRIpeQA

[VUGrad1314]

And to think people thought I was a troll when I made this thread...hmmmmmmm. Now I see posts from other posters saying the same thing. I've beem thinking this for months.

You are still trolling.

How is he trolling when there's a really strong case to be made that he is right?

[AlecPeters101]

a3uge is blindly in love with valpo. It's okay I get it, I love valpo too, but in my honest opinion the ceiling is much lower for valpo than Murray state. I mean just look at the fan bases. Obviously that isn't everything but it's big. Sure Valpo has some passionate fans, but not nearly as many as Murray. Look at how they travel, absolutely insane and I am so jealous. Fandom aside, the mvc really screwed up, for now at least. Who knows what we will be in the future.

[elephtheria47]

Missouri Valley messed up for sure if Murray State would have accepted a bid.

Winning breeds success. Its easier to achieve success when you're in a "lower" conference. Ja Mont is a baller, in the "higher" leagues,  every team has a Ja Mont. So now instead of getting one with a bunch of role players, you need two, three, or four to be winning.

Are they a better team this year? Without a doubt. Are they a better program? I dont know, as we sit here today, probably. I dont think theres anything wrong with Murray State wanting to stay who they are...much easier to create fans, winning ways, and name recognition, much like they have been. I have been backseat rooting for Murray State since early 2010s. If Valpo can reach the same level in the MVC, the lights will be brighter, only getting there is so much tougher.