2018--19 Team Requiem

[bbtds]

Oh so we're actually not allowed to say anything negative in public about the program.

Is Valpo basketball some kind of cult now? It can't fail, it can only be failed?

If you call the overwhelming "woe is me" that certain members of this message board have been exhibiting since the announced transfers "anything negative" then you are really kidding yourself. The unprecidented whining and moaning about losing players that were never actually proven is something this message board or it's previous versions had never seen before. I really wish Javon had stayed. We will miss him.

[FieldGoodie05]

Oh so we're actually not allowed to say anything negative in public about the program.

Is Valpo basketball some kind of cult now? It can't fail, it can only be failed?

If you call the overwhelming "woe is me" that certain members of this message board have been exhibiting since the announced transfers "anything negative" then you are really kidding yourself. The unprecidented whining and moaning about losing players that were never actually proven is something this message board or it's previous versions had never seen before. I really wish Javon had stayed. We will miss him.

I'd have to agree with "mj".  This is a forum on Valpo basketball, not a church bible study group.  There is going to be negativity, I don't know what Cub Scout group existed "back when", but is this not healthy to share concerns and opinions?

For myself, via posting/reading, I've been persuaded to adjust my view point.  Please don't censor the enthusiasm of fellow fans.  We all have topics that get us fired up, no ones infallible.

But yeah, we all can be over the top!

[crusader05]

In my opinion the negativity was not the earlier problem for me, people are entitled to their own opinion! Early there seemed to be a lot of attacking fellow posters for disagreeing and aiming the anger at others. That has dissipated and so, when I need a break from the negativity I just don't read the threads for a few days, but I don't feel that it's been too bad the last week or so all things considered.

[usc4valpo]

Bbtds - at the board of trustee and leadership level, Valpo has no intention to be as great as Purdue, Indiana or Notre Dame. There is no commitment or vision for the university to be at that level.

[NativeCheesehead]

Now that Robert Mueller is finished with his previous job let's bring him in to get to the bottom of these transfers.

[bbtds]

In my opinion the negativity was not the earlier problem for me, people are entitled to their own opinion! Early there seemed to be a lot of attacking fellow posters for disagreeing and aiming the anger at others. That has dissipated and so, when I need a break from the negativity I just don't read the threads for a few days, but I don't feel that it's been too bad the last week or so all things considered.

I'm not the only one to see it. The same posters that are fairly negative most of the time, and many times I can be just as guilty because I get frustrated too, but those posts after the announced transfers we're 1.Valpo is doomed, 2. Coach needs fired, 3. Program will forever be scared, 4. It's all the coach's fault, 5. Since so many players are transferring it must be coaches fault, 6. Won't be Valpo fan any longer, etc. We have been through meltdowns before in the 13 to 15 years I've been on the 4? versions of Valpo message boards through 3 conferences and this had to be the biggest meltdown we have ever seen. Ask the others who have posted or read these Valpo message boards for this long. It was not only to an extreme but very excessive in number of posts. The Valpo MBB program will survive and it will be great again. It may take longer than many of us want but it will happen.

Maybe this is just an injury prone human being which has message board posters trying to pin every possible perceived wrong on the coach or program in general.

I believe JD24 noticed how bad the negativity got.

[crusader05]

Oh i'm not denying the board has gotten excessively negative. What I think has improved slightly is there were a few posters who were constantly in here  yelling at others for not fully agreeing with them. I feel like that has improved although it could just be that I've been less on here because of how angry everyone is in general and have posted less!

My opinion is along the same line as yours. This sucks, some things need to be looked at, but I don't feel it's the dire end AND I don't feel like we truly know or understand what happened to the team these last two seasons and may never will.

[FieldGoodie05]

Oh i'm not denying the board has gotten excessively negative. What I think has improved slightly is there were a few posters who were constantly in here  yelling at others for not fully agreeing with them. I feel like that has improved although it could just be that I've been less on here because of how angry everyone is in general and have posted less!

My opinion is along the same line as yours. This sucks, some things need to be looked at, but I don't feel it's the dire end AND I don't feel like we truly know or understand what happened to the team these last two seasons and may never will.

It's possible that the lack of a tenured coach (Drew's) combined with a new conference has most of us even more on edge.  I don't believe you can compared the HL move to this one because we felt Bryce was the golden child and would find a way out of a poor start.

Bluntly put, none of us want to become another private university that can't win in the valley (see Evansville).  There is a real chance we are looking at a moderate to long downturn and none of us want that.  So it's conceivable that some of us go kicking and screaming.

Now for my opinion, time will tell.  I don't blame ppl getting their therapy by venting on this forum.  I started out acting like the police and I mellowed out.  Maybe some of our fellow posters need to get their venting done here.  However, they can't be surprised when guys that have been on this forum far longer than me knock them down a peg.

I'm entertained and learn here, keep it up all!!!

[VULB#62]

Oh i'm not denying the board has gotten excessively negative. What I think has improved slightly is there were a few posters who were constantly in here  yelling at others for not fully agreeing with them. I feel like that has improved although it could just be that I've been less on here because of how angry everyone is in general and have posted less!

My opinion is along the same line as yours. This sucks, some things need to be looked at, but I don't feel it's the dire end AND I don't feel like we truly know or understand what happened to the team these last two seasons and may never will.

Like 05, when I started seeing the intensity and lashing out, I backed away only adding a thought here and there that I thought might help get things moving in a solution solving direction. I am glad things have settled down and that cooler minds have reemerged. Having said that, my major concern is that if the program weathers this crisis, and it is a crisis in my opinion, that the "university" will breathe a sigh of relief, think "well, we got through that," and continue business as usual. In my 10 years of first lurking and then eventually participating in this forum, no series of events like this in my memory has hit so hard. If a wake up call to the powers that be every existed, this is it.

I am reminded of my late father. Back in 2000, he helped me finance a boat and got all excited about sailing in the Caribbean with us. Well, that wasn't really accurate. He got excited about "the idea of sailing."  Once we had the boat, he much preferred to be on the boat while it was docked so he could putter on little projects.  I hope that Valpo isn't just invested in the "idea of MVC membership" and realizes that at the MVC level it has to go all-in or lose everything.

[bbtds]

. I am glad things have settled down and that cooler minds have reemerged. Having said that, my major concern is that if the program weathers this crisis, and it is a crisis in my opinion, that the "university" will breathe a sigh of relief, think "well, we got through that," and continue business as usual.

One thing that the university can't deny is that attendance at the home games keeps going down and in the end it will cost the Athletic Dept in it's general fund which costs the university more to keep the Athletic Dept going. Maybe football will just add more players and make up the revenue stream from MBB attendance.

[Valpo2013]

At schools like Valpo the interest in sports is dying
Look at the attendance for some of these NIT games

People are into other things. The days of fan frenzy at games...at least for us...is over

We are in a conference that none of our teams can win

It's just the nature of things
Instead of watching others play sports more people are out there doing them.
We have the same people at our games year after year with no new influx

Several reasons for this and none are easily fixed.

[bbtds]

At schools like Valpo the interest in sports is dying
Look at the attendance for some of these NIT games

People are into other things. The days of fan frenzy at games...at least for us...is over

We are in a conference that none of our teams can win

It's just the nature of things
Instead of watching others play sports more people are out there doing them.
We have the same people at our games year after year with no new influx

Several reasons for this and none are easily fixed.

The Zag fans would seem to be the outliers in MBB but I have a feeling it's not true at many MBB programs, especially the ones that are on an upswing much like Valpo WAS since winning in the HL. We are at a crossroads but have had much luck over time finding the Walt Reiners, Em Bauers, Gene Bartows and Homer Drews.

[bigmosmithfan1]

The Zags may be outliers, but 20 years ago today, they were in essentially the same spot as Valpo, with Valpo having the arguably higher name recognition and potential at that time.

One school used their first Cinderella run to reinvest seriously in their program and facilities, and built a juggernaut that eventually became a #1 seed despite never moving from their midmajor conference. The other stood pat, content to not rock the boat, only moving to a higher level when conditions worsened in their respective midmajor leagues, but let the good reputation of their coaches carry the day instead of preparing for life without them.

We're seeing the results of those very different approaches today. (And yes, there's no reason Valpo couldn't be much closer to where the Zags are today if they had shown the same institutional commitment way back then).

[JD24]

Gonzaga by the numbers: 1999 vs. 2017
Author: Erin Robinson , KREM
Published: 11:10 AM PDT March 30, 2017
Updated: 8:43 PM PDT March 30, 2017

SPOKANE, Wash. – Quite a few things have changed at Gonzaga University between the time the Bulldogs made their first NCAA Tournament appearance and now, as they head into their first Final Four.

Gonzaga released a few key figures that have changed from 1999 to 2017.

According to Gonzaga data:

• Total enrollment has increased 86.4 percent in the last 18 years. In 1999, the student enrollment was 4,061, while it now is up to 7,572.

• Undergraduate admission applications have grown nearly 300 percent, from 1,841 applications to 7,342.

• Freshman enrollment rose 124.9 percent, from 569 to 1,280 freshmen.

• The annual budget rose 289.2 percent from $72.7 million to #283 million.

• To accommodate a larger student body, full-time faculty increased 55.5 percent from 279 to 434 faculty members, allowing Gonzaga to maintain a small average class size of 22 students (in 1999) to 24 students (2017).

[covufan]

Gonzaga by the numbers: 1999 vs. 2017
Author: Erin Robinson , KREM
Published: 11:10 AM PDT March 30, 2017
Updated: 8:43 PM PDT March 30, 2017

SPOKANE, Wash. – Quite a few things have changed at Gonzaga University between the time the Bulldogs made their first NCAA Tournament appearance and now, as they head into their first Final Four.

Gonzaga released a few key figures that have changed from 1999 to 2017.

According to Gonzaga data:

• Total enrollment has increased 86.4 percent in the last 18 years. In 1999, the student enrollment was 4,061, while it now is up to 7,572.

• Undergraduate admission applications have grown nearly 300 percent, from 1,841 applications to 7,342.

• Freshman enrollment rose 124.9 percent, from 569 to 1,280 freshmen.

• The annual budget rose 289.2 percent from $72.7 million to #283 million.

• To accommodate a larger student body, full-time faculty increased 55.5 percent from 279 to 434 faculty members, allowing Gonzaga to maintain a small average class size of 22 students (in 1999) to 24 students (2017).

Great info. Wonder what changes to endowment occurred during those years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[valpo84]

There was a very long article a few years ago that detailed the Gonzaga rise into a consistent top 25 program.  I can't put my hands on it, but it was sent around and discussed heavily as a model for what VU could do if it committed to do so.  Gonzaga has something that is relied on in real estate- location, location, location.  They are in the West with not many basketball schools in the surrounding areas. They have more easily established a base from which to expand. Valpo is competing against multiple schools in a 50 mile radius for talent, dollars, media attention, etc.  The PAC10 has declined, as Gonzaga has ascended.  Top players out west have an alternative.  Some might say Gonzaga is the old DePaul.  They have capitalized on those strengths and with consistent wins against the power teams, recruiting has become easier and NBA type talent more readily attracted.   They have then capitalized on those things with commitment from alumni.  Kudos to them!  Here's a story from a couple years ago (although not the more detailed one I was looking for).

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/119205/how-the-basketball-program-helped-gonzaga-university-flourish

[NativeCheesehead]

They do have a geographic advantage and good on them for taking advantage of it.

I'd settle for not being the fourth most popular college basketball team in our own city.

[crusader05]

I think it'd be silly to think we couldn't learn something from Gonzaga but I also think they have situations that allow them to be the exception or over perform the rule.

I think location is a big one as I believe one stat showed that the increase in interest and enrollment often comes from people in your region or area. This is partially why it's been great fro Gonzaga, the West has less colleges with big basketball schools (per the article) and is i believe a growing area.

Valpo's success could definitely boost enrollment and engagement for sure but I think Butler, or what happens with Loyola will probably be a better measuring stick for us.

[valpofb16]

Don't usually post on this side of the board but will give my two cents.

1) Transfers could be due to a lack of student life. VU making kids live in their dorms for 3 years (2 and a half if you qaulify) has become severely outdated and laughable. When I am 21 I don't want to be forced into a 8x10 with another guy, told what hours are visitation hours, and have to receive jboard meetings if I have a beer. Laugh if you want but many 21 year olds are probably in the same boat.

2) Bryce was extremely good at gaining an extra edge by recruiting Europe and Canada. This has stopped essentially and bringing in local high school kids works, but there is competition throughout the midwest and with Valpo's declining options for graduate schools, dorm policies, level of competition, and overall amount of student body there are other alternatives.

3) Lottich came in after the school lost arguably its best senior class in recent memory, hard enough as it is to bounce back from that. The school was moved into a higher competition conference.

Lack of student life, recruiting edges, and higher competition don't usually equal success.

Like I said 2 cents, take it or leave it

[JD24]

Gonzaga by the numbers: 1999 vs. 2017 Author: Erin Robinson , KREM Published: 11:10 AM PDT March 30, 2017 Updated: 8:43 PM PDT March 30, 2017 SPOKANE, Wash. – Quite a few things have changed at Gonzaga University between the time the Bulldogs made their first NCAA Tournament appearance and now, as they head into their first Final Four. Gonzaga released a few key figures that have changed from 1999 to 2017. According to Gonzaga data: • Total enrollment has increased 86.4 percent in the last 18 years. In 1999, the student enrollment was 4,061, while it now is up to 7,572. • Undergraduate admission applications have grown nearly 300 percent, from 1,841 applications to 7,342. • Freshman enrollment rose 124.9 percent, from 569 to 1,280 freshmen. • The annual budget rose 289.2 percent from $72.7 million to #283 million. • To accommodate a larger student body, full-time faculty increased 55.5 percent from 279 to 434 faculty members, allowing Gonzaga to maintain a small average class size of 22 students (in 1999) to 24 students (2017).

Quoting oneself if probably some sort of board violation but here I am.

I am from neither the midwest or pacific northwest.

I first heard of both Valparaiso and Gonzaga right around the same time. Maybe it was even in the same year and it was because of the NCAA Tournament. There was a team who's coach's son hit a miraculous shot. Which team it was I mixed up for a few years. Coaches has similar last names...Few and Drew....but soon Valpo faded back into oblivion only to pop up once in a while. Gonzaga became Gonzaga and there's no confusion now. My opinion is that Valpo blew a golden opportunity to raise the awareness of the school while Gonzaga took advantage of it.

[NativeCheesehead]

At the risk of doxing myself, I worked in the ticket office while I was a student at Valpo until I graduated in 99.

Throughout my senior year there was visible frustration from the athletic department toward Alan Harre for not advocating to the board that we push the athletic department.

One quote I heard (secondhand but from multiple trusted sources) was: "Don't ask for more money.  You're lucky to get what you have." 

[VULB#62]

So freaking myopic (the remembered quote I mean).

[Valpo06]

I've not posted before, but I wanted to see what people really mean by the perceived lack of institutional support for MBB here at Valpo. From what I can tell (I only have data publicly available DOE data, I've never had conversations with anyone on the board or anything like that), the support from the institution for the program has been consistently high for years (DOE data on the internet only goes back to 2003, so I don't know about 1999), increasing from $1,300,000 in 2003 to more than $2,600,000 in 2017 (the most recent data available). Right now Valpo is in the 12 percentile for school size in D-I, but 56 percentile for MBB spending. Of the smallest 20% of D-I schools, Valpo ranked 20th of 68 schools in MBB spending in 2017. That makes me curious about what all of you think about this. It appears to me that the school has been spending all it can through regular channels on MBB, and really needs to find large donors to make a great leap in the future.

All of that said, if Valpo wants to consistently be in the NCAA tournament, and competitive when it gets there, we probably need to spend at least another $1,500,000 per year on top of the huge budget increases the program has already seen over the last 14-16 years. Where does money like that come from, especially at a school with fewer than 4000 students, and no 7 figure athletics donors in sight?

[wh]

I've not posted before, but I wanted to see what people really mean by the perceived lack of institutional support for MBB here at Valpo. From what I can tell (I only have data publicly available DOE data, I've never had conversations with anyone on the board or anything like that), the support from the institution for the program has been consistently high for years (DOE data on the internet only goes back to 2003, so I don't know about 1999), increasing from $1,300,000 in 2003 to more than $2,600,000 in 2017 (the most recent data available). Right now Valpo is in the 12 percentile for school size in D-I, but 56 percentile for MBB spending. Of the smallest 20% of D-I schools, Valpo ranked 20th of 68 schools in MBB spending in 2017. That makes me curious about what all of you think about this. It appears to me that the school has been spending all it can through regular channels on MBB, and really needs to find large donors to make a great leap in the future.

All of that said, if Valpo wants to consistently be in the NCAA tournament, and competitive when it gets there, we probably need to spend at least another $1,500,000 per year on top of the huge budget increases the program has already seen over the last 14-16 years. Where does money like that come from, especially at a school with fewer than 4000 students, and no 7 figure athletics donors in sight?

1. The budget compares favorably on the macro level. That said, it doesn't matter what Southern University in the SWAC spends or YSU in the HL spends, or any of hundreds of other Mid- and low major programs across the fruited plain. What does matter is how Valpo compares to sister programs in the MVC.

2. The last time I looked, Valpo's budget is somewhere in the middle of the pack in the MVC. However, doesn't the budget include tuition waiver payments paid to to university for the 13 scholarship players?  Assuming that's the case, Valpo and the other privates budgets would be artificially inflated to cover much higher tuition costs. Removing that apples-to-oranges would lower Valpo's relative position.

3. While your point about Valpo having a sizable budget relative to its small size may be true, it's immaterial. When Valpo's administration decided to move to D-1, they knew full well they would be competing against universities with more resources and higher financial commitments to athletics. The same decision was made relative to move-ups to the Horizon League and MVC. You have to pay to play.

4. The same holds true for the need to revamp the ARC. According to Commissioner Elgin, Valpo verbally committed to rehabbing the ARC as a condition of joining the MVC. It's disingenuous to play the "I'm too little" card now. If the Administration knew that would be an issue going forward, they should have had a plan to accommodate it, or else decide to remain in the HL. Apparently, they thought they could have their cake and eat it too.

4. Hoping a big time donor will come along is not a plan, it's a pipe dream akin to hoping to win the Power Ball. As you say, big time donors are few and far between at a university the size of Valpo. Yet, apparently that's Valpo's only hope to bring its facility up to standard in the league it committed to.

5. I am highly skeptical of MLB's remark that they are always looking for big time donors. The fact is big time gifts were given for somewhat frivolous projects, mainly the needlessly extravagant visitors center and the new Chapel wing. The question is did these people have those very projects in mind from the get-go, or were they steered there by Heckler, the same guy that has absolutely no plan in place to rehab the ARC - short term, long term, any term.

[valpo84]

WH--the projects you mention were not steered by Heckler.