Butler - Is it downhill from here?

[wh]

Figuring out what is going to happen to Butler basketball in the aftermath of the Hayward/Mack/Howard era has got to be one of the biggest puzzles in college basketball in a long time.  Against all odds, they have been to the mountain top of college basketball 2 years in a row.  '09-10 was easier to rationalize because they had the dominant record in both conf. and OOC.  Even then it seemed like a miracle.  Last year's finish came totally off the wall.  They lost some early games they probably should not have, they went into a funk during conf. play and lost to teams they should not have, rallied at the end but still didn't win conf.  They pulled out the tournament, but didn't appear any better at that point than any of several good Mid Majors, let alone dozens of Majors.  Then unbelievably they go to the championship game again.  Mind boggling to say the least.

The question is how did they do this?  People want to credit the Butler Way, superior coaching, kids willing to play within the system, etc.  That's all fine and good, but when it's all said and done I have to believe that the primary reason by far was the presence and influence of Hayward, Mack and Howard.  They were such fierce competitors, played with such intensity, were physical beyond their size, and simply wore other teams down.  Now that they're gone, from what I see Butler has some nice players, some good new recruits, and some other players that need to step up.  What I don't see is that unique combination of players that they have had the past 3 seasons.  It will be interesting to see what "new look" Butler does without these guys.  Was it the system, or was it the players?  Only time will tell.

 

[historyman]

David Woods at the Indy Star seems to see think that despite the rebuilding there are many positives at Butler.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20111015/SPORTS0605/110150376/Butler-opens-practice-7-newcomers-new-energy?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Sports|p

[StlVUFan]

My take: a worthy discussion, as long as phrases like "without question" and "no way in hell" are studiously avoided.  I am fully prepared to chock the last 2 final four runs up to the system and little else.  Matt Howard was less of a factor 2 years ago than he was last year.  On the other hand, Hayward wasn't there last year but was 2 years ago.

Anyone who bets significant money against Butler accomplishing anything, including a 3rd straight final four run should be prepared to suffer the loss.

[sectionee]

Those three were fierce competitors who wouldn't accept losing.  I believe this is a learned attitude that players either get while in high school or they don't get it at all.  These players aren't always the most gifted athletically (Howard) and I suppose that can make them tough to target when it comes to recruiting.

[historyman]

Those three were fierce competitors who wouldn't accept losing.  I believe this is a learned attitude that players either get while in high school or they don't get it at all.  These players aren't always the most gifted athletically (Howard) and I suppose that can make them tough to target when it comes to recruiting.

I have a feeling that Ron Nored fits that description too. I don't know how far he will carry the team on his shoulders when the going gets tough but he really shows up as a very very tough competitor.

See the youtube video from his NCAA "Season in the Life" video. It's a video series by the guys at the NCAA. There are some segments of the Valpo at Butler game from the 10-11 season on this video.

Season in the Life - Ronald Nored (Episode 1)

[covufan]

I think that with the players returning and Brad Stevens as coach, Butler will be OK.  The players and coaching staff know how to win, and the players will exude that confidence on the court.  Don't underestimate the power of winning - these players know they can compete at any level, and will show that during this season.  I think Butler will be beatable and every team they play will be up for that challenge.  Time will tell how they react.

[covufan]

Here is an article from Sports Illustrated:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/10/14/butler-begins.ap/index.html?sct=cb_t2_a11

[wh]

Here is an article from Sports Illustrated:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/10/14/butler-begins.ap/index.html?sct=cb_t2_a11

From the article:

Butler must replace three starters - Matt Howard, Shelvin Mack and Shawn Vanzant - from a squad that reached college basketball's biggest stage, the national championship game, the last two seasons. Sophomores Khyle Marshall and Chrishawn Hopkins, who played key roles in last season's postseason run, should fill two of those spots.

Hopkins was never in Butler's rotation last year.  He played in 4 of their last 20 games for a total of 15 minutes.  He played in 2 of their 6 tournament games, logging 4 minutes in each.  He was scoreless in one and hit one 3-pt. basket in the other.  He may well be a starter this year (who knows), but the writer is wrong to predict it based on last year's accomplishments.   

[zvillehaze]

Here's my quick take on the status of the program.  If you take a snapshot of it today compared to four years ago, you can argue it's much better in terms of the "tangibles" (ie. financially, facilites, ability to schedule, access to higher rated recruits, national profile, etc.). 

However, as I stated here before, none of that means anything without the accomplishments to support it.  It's highly unlikely that Butler duplicates it's back-to-back Final Fours (something no other team from Indiana has ever accomplished), so matching the accomplishments of the last four years will be difficult.  But the program is in a very good position, IMO. 

[historyman]

I really like the confidence that Hopkins showed when he went into a high level NCAA tournament game for Butler and did perform extremely well. For some reason Stevens pushes the right buttons and knows how to bring out these confident displays in ultra important games. It just must be contagious. Bryce and a few other Valpo players have showed that ability to be confident during ultra important games but not nearly as often as Butler players. This simply comes from winning more often in important games. Playing in a multitude of important games helps a bunch too.

[Coogles]

From the article:

Butler must replace three starters - Matt Howard, Shelvin Mack and Shawn Vanzant - from a squad that reached college basketball's biggest stage, the national championship game, the last two seasons. Sophomores Khyle Marshall and Chrishawn Hopkins, who played key roles in last season's postseason run, should fill two of those spots.

Hopkins was never in Butler's rotation last year.  He played in 4 of their last 20 games for a total of 15 minutes.  He played in 2 of their 6 tournament games, logging 4 minutes in each.  He was scoreless in one and hit one 3-pt. basket in the other.  He may well be a starter this year (who knows), but the writer is wrong to predict it based on last year's accomplishments.

Based on last year's accomplishments - in games - you'd be right.  Stevens, though, said Hopkins was just as far along as Marshall in terms of his grasp of the system and consistency in practice, but that he was simply buried behind more experienced options in the backcourt.  With three guards graduating he's going to be asked to fill a big chunk of their production.

Should be an intesting year with good and bad spots.  If you include the two new walk-ons and the transfer, the roster has seven new faces that need to get up to speed in practice.  The good news for Butler is that just about everyone in the league will be working to put new pieces in place.  Detroit's the exception, really.  Cleveland State lost the best player in the league.  Milwaukee lost its two best players and leading scorers.  Valpo lost two of its best players.  Green Bay lost their starting backcourt.  Wright State lost...everyone.

[milanmiracle]

Seriously? Yes, it's downhill from here in the sense that they aren't likely to return to the title game. Not even Duke or North Carolina do that. However, do I think it's the end of the "run" for Butler? Heck no! This years team will be very, very good by the end of the season. Do they have Gordon Hayward? No. Shevin Mack? No. Matt Howard? No. However...

They do have Kyle Marshall, Andrew Smith, Ronald Nored, and soon to be star Chrishawn Hopkins. Rumor is he held his own with the NBA players around Indy this summer. Anybody who thinks Butler will return to the pack is kidding themselves (and yes I know they didn't win conference).

[dylanrocks]

Seriously? Yes, it's downhill from here in the sense that they aren't likely to return to the title game.

Wouldn't that be heading "uphill?"

In all seriousness, Zville has the perfect take on this.

It's nearly certain that the Bulldogs won't return to the Final Four this season, but the program is in far better shape than four years ago.

Make no mistake, Butler is the league's flagship, bellwether and torchbearer ... and deserves all the accolades it receives.